Play times

[Fool_Hardy]

I am not the one to decide what it will take to entice everyone else. I just feel we need to encourage people to play.

[Mali]

With respect to what does and does not increase or decrease player retention, I'd love it if all of you participate in a poll that I will post this evening that will enable you to anonymously report or commit to group play times.

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

I'd love to get back but these days time is so limited I'm mainly playing MCOC on my phone when given an opportunity because it's quick, easy and portable. I most recently played 7:00 AM to 8:30 AM EST and 1-2PM EST, but my office cut my access to FL in Spring/Winter 2016, I haven't played since.  Prior to that I played every morning from 5-6:30 AM EST.  Far cry from college times with AR/FL.  Can't believe we've been going this long.

[Fool_Hardy]

FL = energizer bunny

[English lad]

On 4/11/2017 at 0:47 AM, Pali said:

Gaming in our high school days was a very different beast than gaming is for high schoolers now.  I've got no access to relevant statistics, but I'd be very surprised if teens now mud at comparable rates to a decade or so ago.  Kids now have grown up used to games that they can pick up and drop as needed on their mobile devices or the big MMOs with hundreds or thousands of people to play with at any given moment.

 

For my part, it really is a matter of the time investment - and I don't mean how long it takes to get cabal promotions or other rewards, I mean the time investment needed for me to feel invested in my character.  I know from personal experience that if I'm not averaging 30+ hours a month that it is hard for me to feel the character, to feel like I'm growing them, to feel like I'm having an impact on the world.  It's like having a D&D session once a month or so, where you can sit down and have some fun fights or whatever, but you're simply not playing often enough for you to really get into your character's head - and I don't come here for the PK, I come here for the characters and immersion, and I won't have it without dedicating myself to sinking more time consistently into one game than I'm willing to.

 

I work two jobs, I'm trying to maintain a YouTube gaming channel, as well maintain some semblance of a social life and also enjoy various other games simply for pleasure - I simply don't have time to live a second life in Aabahran like I used to anymore.  FL hasn't been able to hold onto me for more than a few months at a time in several years, and I don't see that pattern changing - it's not anything wrong with FL keeping me away, it's just life.

Pali - as usual - has nailed it - its about time.

We have two types of players these days - those who don't have large commitments elsewhere in the life - some of whom can literally put 200 hours in a character in a month! - and those struggling to put together the 20 hours to even remain competitive.

If you want to maintain a playerbase as a MUD these days you have to be attractive to the later group - and this is where FL has fallen behind the curve.

I didn't make a thread when I let Morain go - because i didn't really know what to say.  With hindsight it becomes easier.  Logging on wasn't fun enough for me to prioritize it over other things.  I always knew i was unlikely to be able to put more than 1 hour in a single stretch - more likely 15 - 20 minutes.  FL just isn't accommodating for people in that situation.  Ultimately i walked away from FL because I realized it wasn't compatible with my life any more.  

The amount of times I had to DC and hope no-one found me, because I can't wait 10 minutes to log out if my wife or child need me...

The amount of times I had to log out, having let my cabal down - because I'd stayed the 40 minutes i had available, and the other person could just take my standard, take lands etc simply by having longer to play. (This was a big one, I think I finished 9/10 playing sessions feeling deflated from having 'lost' as I couldn't defend / reclaim any more due to needing to log out)

The amount of times I logged in with 15 minutes to play quickly, because i desperately needed to get some gold / consumables - only to have to log out, because I was being actively hunted by people, and I knew even if got away I couldn't afford the No-Quit period from PK.

Now i walked away from the game with the attitude of "Nothing wrong with the game - its just me and my situation" - and this remains true.  However if the Imms and Playerbase really want to grow the population - the first thing that needs to change is that more attention needs to be focused on 'part timers' and less on the hardcore players. This WILL mean people giving up some of the advantages they have at the moment, and WILL mean those currently at the top of the tree feeling like they have had things taken away from them.  I don't think the appetite for this exists in the game as it stands, and sadly that means it probably won't be a game for me again.

There are a lot of muds out there with 10 - 15 players at peak, and long periods with 0-3 people, that are slowly dying away - because their core of loyal players don't want to see changes that would negatively impact them.  FL is one of them, this isn't a dig, as I don't necessarily thing it is a bad thing.  FL was designed to be a Hardcore experience - which I loved.  I just don't have the option to be as hardcore any more - and that makes it unplayable for me in a way that is fun.

[Ali_gmud]

That was a very good read @English lad, and quite accurate I'd say. 

Would be curious to see what discussion this turns into and what it may lead.

Though I think it was already brought up before, that there needs to be a middle ground. Because for sure there's people that only have a limited time to play and then people with a lot of time to play. I feel like a constant presence is good for the game to see that there are active members, and that should be rewarded... but not in a game breaking kind of way.

I wonder if it could be a good thing to be able to add a 'who past' command, that allows you to see ALL of the players whom have logged in within the last like.. 2 or 3 days. Might be cool to see a larger who list that would show you some characters you've never seen before due to your play times or time zones. But it would compile all of the characters that have logged in over the last 2 or 3 days, to kind of give you an idea of how many players/characters are logging in and are active but may not be hanging around due to limited active players. I admit I'm one of those people that log in, and see one or two people on, and if I don't have much to do with those characters, I'll generally log out unless I've got to stock up on some consumables or mess around with armies.

[Zavero]

@English lad, I am in the same boat. If it weren't for logging in at work on my phone, teleworking once a week, or the occasional moments I have some free time while my wife and four month old are taking a nap... I wouldn't make enough hours to play. It sucks but I enjoy role playing as it is some stress relief from the grind. I have no answers to fix it.

[Celerity]

FL is simply not a game you can idle around in. You have to be watching all the time. Even if you have another game/app open, you still need your eye on FL, just due to the structure of PK in the game.

Even going to the bathroom while being logged on is quite dangerous as I, and probably most of you, have learned.

-

@English ladis correct that most changes would detract from the current playerbase in hopes of some wider appeal. The more hardcore PKer you are, the more it would detract.

It becomes a bit of a problem though, because those players that are left are those who tend to be hardcore PKers. If you make a change to PK structure, you risk losing your current set of players. Since we can't afford to lose our current players in order to potentially gain some new players, we keep catering to the current hardcore PK niche which in turn makes the problem worse.

Further complicating this is that the staff is chosen from people who have thrived in FL's environment - this makes it even less likely that the orientation/niche will change.

-

Do we really want non-PK characters? That is almost unthinkable in our game. Attention on the PvE side of the game? Good luck! Non-PK content? Very difficult.

What do non-PKers want? What would drive them to play in our game? How about low-intensity PKers?

Unfortunately, a lot of what those two groups would want is directly at odds with what high-intensity PKers want.

A non-PKer might want safe places, but the high-intensity PKer doesn't want any safe zones due to the problems/abuse they create in the PK system.

A non-PKer might want a detailed crafting system, but the high-intensity PKer would not want a player craft system that would be useful in PK, as it would disrupt the PK balance.

Same with any economic simulations - farming, crafting, construction, household management, estates, whatever. They would all need to exist in service and deference to the PK system to be allowed in FL. We can't have a farming system that hurts the PK environment in any way.

A low-intensity PKer might want a gear-safe, no consumable gathering PK environment, but the high-intensity wouldn't want that because it lessens PK incentive and the skill level.

A non-PKer might want to run a bar to socialize in, but the high-intensity PKer again would not want any safety nets for certain players that are necessary for any face-to-face social activity.

Everything is designed and balanced around maintaining a good PK system.

Is this good or bad? It is FL's niche.

We have a good PK system. Unfortunately, we pay a very heavy price for it.

If we try to change, we'll pay another hefty price as we lose several players.

Is this good or bad?

-

In the end, @Anume has chosen a very stable path. We continue to maintain and refine the PK system, with a few minor non-PK concepts thrown in. The stable path has kept us alive for a long, long time, and so it has been successful in that respect.

Will it keep FL alive forever? Probably not. Without major, major restructing, FL will die the slow death. Technically, it is probably already catatonic if we haven't seen any growth in several years (who is our newest player, btw?) -- we just haven't actually died yet.

Will a restructure kill the game? 100% if it is done badly.

Do I trust the staff to do this restructure well? No, not enough to risk the game.

[Kyzarius]

so...sell the pk system. 

Lets have some pk events.

Maybe some cabal imms can schedule rumble times.  Two imms, and collect heads.  Maybe hand out items.  lock corpses from looting for the event...just collect your enemies souls for 2 hours? Idk..can have ffa or teams, some event only healing items?  Draw the battle on cabal lines?

Does that not sound like fun?

I would roll characters or play stalled ones more just to play in a regular events.

 

[f0xx]

4 hours ago, English lad said:

The amount of times I logged in with 15 minutes to play quickly, because i desperately needed to get some gold / consumables - only to have to log out, because I was being actively hunted by people, and I knew even if got away I couldn't afford the No-Quit period from PK.

To be honest, I don't know which real-time multiplayer game allows to you log out whenever you want, without facing some sort of a penalty.

That's just not how multiplayer games work.

I mean, look at the top 6 multiplayer games with the biggest communities:
1. League of Legends
2. Hearthstone
3. Overwatch
4. DotA
5. WoW
6. CS

Most of those technically do not allow you to log out whenever you want, at least not if you want to be a top ranking player in them.

So, with all my respect, I completely refuse to accept your argument that the Forsaken Lands suffers because of that, since that is exactly the same concept the most successful online multiplayer games use.

[Fool_Hardy]

I can not refute the truth of Foxx words. Even though I had to ask my son what all of those things were, he vindicates Foxx, verifying the truth.

However.

We CAN make a change that would help some people in certain situations.

We CAN create commands.

Such as, "Emergency Exit".

This command would disconnect a player instantly, regardless of adrenaline or time logged in. Because this command would be created for the purpose of exiting the game when an emergency happens, it would be limited in the number of times it can be used over a period of time. Its intent is not for you to avoid PK, its intent is not for you to retain your standard, its intent is to provide an exit for people who actually have an emergency. I would place a 20 minute IP ban on the individual who uses an "Emergency Exit" to prevent its abuse.

As for the I can only play for minutes at a time issue, there is no good solution, and I for one appreciate that the player stated that its a personal issue and not something wrong with the game. I struggled with this a couple of years ago when I went back to college, it kept me from joining cabals, it kept me from really immersing myself into RP in general. Eventually, I found time to play again. I will hope time finds freedom for you too, Zavero and English Lad.

[Pali]

The emergency exit idea isn't a bad one at all.  IMMs can keep an eye out for abuse, people can submit logs if they think someone used it to unfairly escape a PK, etc.  I'd be tempted to suggest upping the IP ban timer a bit, but that's just details.
 

[f0xx]

I don't mind an emergency exit command. Such a command, by default though, means that it WILL be used to escape PK. It can still work in our environment though, IF:

1) It can not be used when bellow 50% hp
2) It can be used once a month
3) Every time it is used, a small notification is sent to the IMMs with the character who used it and everyone logged in.

[Pali]

1 and 3 I fully agree with, 2 feels far too restrictive.  If someone's using it too much, the IMMs will already know because of 3 sending them a bunch of notes about it.  But a kid doesn't stop knocking things over for a month just because they did it yesterday.

[the_nightmare]

I dont like the idea of an emergency exit, as the Immortals have to look yet another game feature. Aren't they already too busy with in game things? They are people after all, not machines.

If you cannot play for at least 1 hour then simply do not. As @f0xx stated every MMO have the same feature, it requires at least an hour to play a game without suffering penalty.

 The good thing is that there will always be thousands of players around that love playing muds and doesn't care of the new MMO that is out on the market. We can grow our playerbase just by advertising if you ask me, so we better donate some money for advertising than crying on the forums.

[f0xx]

Then you will have people like me, who are very active across different characters leaving, because everyone logs of after they eat a dirt.

Sure, IMMs will punish those who abuse it, eventually, perhaps.

But that will not improve my own gaming experience and we are left with a worse situation than before, since you have 2 people disappointed instead of one.

 

[tassinvegeta]

Why not just create a poll to discover the top reasons people don't play as much and log off?

[f0xx]

28 minutes ago, tassinvegeta said:

Why not just create a poll to discover the top reasons people don't play as much and log off?

Because people will simply lie (to themselves and the rest).

You will not see anyone saying "I log off because I have to fight <strong enemy character>."

Just like it is in PK, people never admit to themselves they lose because of their own mistakes. It's always an external reason. Same goes for everything in real life. Same goes for logging of.

Like see, it was @English lad who brought up this issue. And I will tell you that it's not why he logs out most of the time.

Most of the time, just like any of us, he logs out because he has to fight a strong enemy.

I've seen his character (Morain) sit ingame for hours when I am on a character he doesn't need to fight. When I switch my characters and log into the guy that he has to fight, he logs off immediately. I am not calling him out. I am just giving him as example because he was the one who complained of real life things keeping him away from the game. Everyone logs of now and then at the sight of a stronger enemy and a real tough fight. I do it myself all the time. You win the encounter not when you kill the enemy, but when you force him to log off and log on his other character (that doesn't have to fight you). That's how this game simply works.

The difference is that I am not ashamed to say that I log out because I have to fight Cervall/Kelmi/Kotrag/Viruthx.

When you come here and give wrong info though, and then ask for changes to be made based on that wrong info, you are not helping the game.

[Ali_gmud]

Maybe fighting characters like the ones you mentioned requires a bit more time commitment, with a risk that once they've engaged you, you cannot log out for 10 or so + minutes if you're lucky. Much less time than say sitting in your cabal, taking a few bastions and chatting to some lower leveled clan members? You could bail out the moment your son starts choking on a crayon, or your wife starts making demands.

[Lloth]

11 hours ago, Kyzarius said:

so...sell the pk system. 

Lets have some pk events.

Maybe some cabal imms can schedule rumble times.  Two imms, and collect heads.  Maybe hand out items.  lock corpses from looting for the event...just collect your enemies souls for 2 hours? Idk..can have ffa or teams, some event only healing items?  Draw the battle on cabal lines?

Does that not sound like fun?

I would roll characters or play stalled ones more just to play in a regular events.

 

Why do the immortals have to organize this? Why not come together as players for it?

Because nobody wants to lose. They don't want to lose their shines. They don't want to lose their record. They don't even want to lose a fight. Loss in FL has become so unacceptable that people log off just to escape the potential. 

So the cure isn't us making a special event to encourage staying for PK, with special rules or incentives. It is on everyone stop placing so much importance on temporary things.

[Celerity]

@f0xx I agree with @Ali_gmud that is more likely that English probably logged off more because he lost his flexibility. You can stay online for hours with minimal attention, but once the game requires your focus, and you can't provide it, you are forced to log off.

You see him log off when a PK threat logs on, and that is true.

It is possible that it is due to fear, but I think it is more likely he simply couldn't commit to the uninterrupted, undefined time length focus on the game that is required in a serious PK situation.

 

[f0xx]

 

19 minutes ago, Celerity said:

You see him log off when a PK threat logs on, and that is true.

It is possible that it is due to fear, but I think it is more likely he simply couldn't commit to the uninterrupted, undefined time length focus on the game that is required in a serious PK situation.

 

That's a possibility too, but in he end does it really matter?

And how will an emergency exit command help if that is the case? You can log out before the fight starts (as it is right now), or you can log out when you see your ass is getting wooped and after you've made your opponent burn many consumables to prepare for the fight.

How will this "emergency exit" command improve the current situation?

[Kyzarius]

31 minutes ago, Lloth said:

Why do the immortals have to organize this? Why not come together as players for it?

Because nobody wants to lose. They don't want to lose their shines. They don't want to lose their record. They don't even want to lose a fight. Loss in FL has become so unacceptable that people log off just to escape the potential. 

So the cure isn't us making a special event to encourage staying for PK, with special rules or incentives. It is on everyone stop placing so much importance on temporary things.

because it promotes people to play? 

Idk, I die.  I Try to fight anyone and everyone.  

But look at it this way, the "complaint" seems to be time invested.  Time invested for gearing as an example.  And though I tend to roll my eyes at that, having geared from naked using outfit gear in 2 days with the most unworthy solo gearing class in the game.  It is still a complaint.  

So throw in some time slots where people can just go at it, not wild like haloween madness, but RP pushed war with some twists.  Some melee events? good vs evil, and if nobody shows throw in some nasty mob fights that gather those who are online to a unified purpose. 

 Imms have to organize it because imms can note to all, note through mobs, post signs in game, put it on the motd, drop some fun items etc etc.  Players dont have the tools to organize events in FL.  I mean I could go on the forum all day but if it isnt imm supported we will get way less bite.  

 

On the flip side you could put in pets that kick mobs asses and only attack mobs, a tank one a dps one a healer one...let players buy them for relatively inexpensive and gather their own gear.  Massively increase rare and unique limits and that way the dad that can only play an hour could go solo desolation and gear up at least.  the "to be competitive" statement kind of drives this thought.  So yeah, some of us have the time to gear form outfit, kill a few people, grab some help.  Others login for a week and see nobody but foes, or lately only one other person.  Loosen the noose a little, make gearing easy. 

 

just some thoughts of course. 

[Lloth]

Imms are not the only ones who can send notes to all.

Making special "locked corpses" rules brings an ooc influence into PK, which would be very hypocritical of us.

We have, in fact, tried to encourage massive PK in the past. It gets ignored because people don't want to lose. 

As a builder, trivializing gearing makes me sad. What's the point of creating challenges and cool new zones and fights if it's just going to be circumvented because people want that cool equipment to come easy? What, then, is the point of me, or my team, putting in effort in designing "boss fights" with high rewards if the difficulty doesn't match? 

[tassinvegeta]

Kinda thought the point of polls would be for people to vote anonymously. Without others players or imms knowing who voted. I don't feel its people lying to themselves. It's being afraid to post on the forums what they really want to say or how they really feel for fear of repercussions from players or imms. That's why we get these PG13 posts that hide what's really going on.