How do the following skills affect call lightning?

[Fool_Hardy]

It has always been my understanding that call lightning becomes most useful against those characters wearing the proverbial "God Suits". Yet we see it being the go to for the classes that obtain it. The spells intent, if I am not mistaken, is to balance the odds against equipment. However, people, myself included, seem to believe that weakening your AC is the best counter to this spell.

I believe the spell is supposed to cause the greatest damage to someone decked in "metal" armor. Since metal armors, such as the full plate, at one time were the stronger armors, thus providing the greatest AC advantages.

So how then do the following skills that are non metallic in nature affect Call Lightning?

1. Armor
2. Shield
3. Stone skin
4. Bark Skin
5. Flesh armor
6. Air shield
7. Or even High Dexterity

If someone, mortal or immortal has these answers, please enlighten the player base.

[Chesta6384]

It is AC related.   Higher AC means more damage.   Best ways to defend against it are to lower your AC and swap out your high AC gear.   Racial resistances save against it as well.  There are many ways around it.   There are even items to make weather better.   Also...Lightning don't work in snow.

[Pali]

Way back in the day, few characters had -300 or better AC and -40 or better aff saves, so call lightning wasn't the go-to spell for invokers that it now is with those stats being fairly commonplace. It is less that call lightning has gotten better than it used to be, and more that the other spells don't ignore today's higher saves as well.

[Celerity]

To be fair, it was the go-to spell, but it was called chain lightning back then. Since 2.0, it has been the main staple of an effective invoker because it does great damage at low lag.

[Pali]

I think you are misremembering a bit, Celerity - chain lightning originally bounced between combatants doing high damage to each it touched, but mana shield would protect the invoker.  This was indeed OP, so chain was changed to the specialized anti-mana shield/spell-turning spell it is now.  Call lightning is the same now as it was then - edit: I had a Savant Elder Invoker until the end of 1.0, and I remember call largely not being a staple because few had the AC to make it worth using over dispel/hellstream or ice storm to kill weapons.

[Fool_Hardy]

55 minutes ago, Pali said:

Way back in the day, few characters had -300 or better AC and -40 or better aff saves, so call lightning wasn't the go-to spell for invokers that it now is with those stats being fairly commonplace. It is less that call lightning has gotten better than it used to be, and more that the other spells don't ignore today's higher saves as well.

So then the growing scale of armor class strength has caused a predominantly mage spell to grow in its importance.

Do we have an example of the power spike working in the mages favor? Perhaps that's a stretch.

Perhaps the thresholds for increased damage from called lightning have not quite been balanced against new and greater armor classes.

[Fool_Hardy]

chain lightning shattered both mana shields, it was an invoker vs invoker tool.

Ohh, I see what you did Pali. You looked through the looking glass. But we can not stare that far back in time.

[Pali]

It has caused a spell used by one mage class to become their staple combat spell, but 1) this is, IMO, more a case of the rest of the arsenal losing utility than call gaining it, and 2) applies to the mage that is already least hurt by saves creep despite 1, as aff spells aren't completely nullified by saves the way mals or mental spells are.  It has also given rangers and druids a similar boost, as thunderstorm works similarly.

 

edit: call lightning never killed mana shields - chain lightning always did on the target, though I don't recall it ever killing my own shield pre- or post-nerf, it just used to do massive damage as well.

[Pali]

Did a post of mine disappear or get deleted somehow?

 

@Celerity, I think you are misremembering - chain lightning used to be the staple until it was nerfed, because it would do massive damage as it bounced.  I had a savant elder invoker until the end of 1.0, and call lightning was never my go-to.  Melees didn't have the AC to trigger it, and even most mages and commuters didn't - instead, dispel/hellstream or ice storm for weapon destruction were the go-to tactics at that point.

[Fool_Hardy]

Looking back even three years ago I found this.

There is no called lightning.

There is no comment about how call lightning should have been used.

We must acknowledge what we have created.

[Pali]

I played an invoker a bit before that log and posted a fight vs a feral cleric - I was advised to use call lightning against him rather than fire by at least one person at the time.  Since the feral deleted at the end of the fight, I never got a chance to compare their effectiveness.

[f0xx]

2 hours ago, Fool_Hardy said:

Looking back even three years ago I found this.

There is no called lightning.

There is no comment about how call lightning should have been used.

We must acknowledge what we have created.

Zanzurok was Trick's fire giant warrior, i.e. a low AC class. One would be a fool to use call lightning (and not something else) against a fire giant. Hence why you don't see any suggestions of call lightning uses.

Do not ignore the context of a PK battle.... you'll end up making the wrong conclusions.

[Zavero]

10 hours ago, Pali said:

Did a post of mine disappear or get deleted somehow?

 

@Celerity, I think you are misremembering - chain lightning used to be the staple until it was nerfed, because it would do massive damage as it bounced.  I had a savant elder invoker until the end of 1.0, and call lightning was never my go-to.  Melees didn't have the AC to trigger it, and even most mages and commuters didn't - instead, dispel/hellstream or ice storm for weapon destruction were the go-to tactics at that point.

No, it is there. You just need to sort by date posted most likely. The question forum is a bit weird.

[Pali]

6 hours ago, Zavero said:

No, it is there. You just need to sort by date posted most likely. The question forum is a bit weird.

Ah... it seems to be above a post I made before it.  Strange.  Ah well.

[Lloth]

As to power spiking for mages... 

 

It doesn't work in the linear fashion that melee does, with the exception of mal and mental.

 

Saving against a aff or breath spell (that damages) lowers the damage, but does not negate it. Combine that with how call lightning and thunderstorm work with AC, and you have built in protection against powercreep of melee items, while not overpowering those spells (as noted above you can remove items or get higher saves). That's why these classes have kept up so well compared to shamans. 

 

I can elaborate more at a later time if you're curious. 

[Fool_Hardy]

Does the <non metal> flag on equipment hinder the rust spell?

Is it just a lost relic of a flag we do not need anymore?

When players see something like <non metal> flagged on an item they must surely be expected to wonder why, what is the purpose, how can this aid or hurt me?

[Lloth]

I am not sure how, or if, it effects rust. I don't ever really use it, personally. To my knowledge, Volgathras didn't either. 

I would love to see such flags have tangible uses, and help add some depth to items, but that kind of thing is a little out of my realm and more of Erelei's.

[Kyzarius]

2 hours ago, Lloth said:

As to power spiking for mages... 

 

It doesn't work in the linear fashion that melee does, with the exception of mal and mental.

 

Saving against a aff or breath spell (that damages) lowers the damage, but does not negate it. Combine that with how call lightning and thunderstorm work with AC, and you have built in protection against powercreep of melee items, while not overpowering those spells (as noted above you can remove items or get higher saves). That's why these classes have kept up so well compared to shamans. 

 

I can elaborate more at a later time if you're curious. 

if we could come up with a way for maleadictives/mental spells to scale that wasn't as binary as more spell level...

[Fool_Hardy]

16 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

if we could come up with a way for maleadictives/mental spells to scale that wasn't as binary as more spell level...

I still think the answer is a skill.

As an example:

Frazzle

syntax: frazzle 'target'  (one round lag to user each use, one round lag on victim when successful)

By use of this skill the wizard confounds the magical protections of his victim creating gaps in his magical defenses. The victim's saves to one form of magic is greatly reduced for a period of time. Perhaps it could be a selectable skill, where mages choose based on which type of magical resistance they will wish to overcome.

But I am wrong a lot, so this probably is not the answer.

[f0xx]

So, @Fool_Hardy, you are suggesting a new skill that does exactly  the same (but less effective) as:

curse
deteriorate
phantom grasp
magic missile
age
ego whip

[Kyzarius]

I would just improve those mechanics foxx mentioned. 

Curse is a good example.  

And give temple healers a harder time at curing mals. 

I would also help their defenses.  

[Lloth]

I have been kicking around in my head a method similar to damaging spells where saving against mals will cause a lesser version (maybe 1/3rd of original spell level) at a 50% chance.

 

Would allow for complete saves while still compensating for the efficacy of high saves in the current state of EQ.

 

But that's not really anything being discussed at the moment.

[Fool_Hardy]

When you put it that way Foxx, I guess so.

Sounds ridiculous. But curse was once easy to land, one and done, now its two or three or more attempts. In the context of battle, more than three attempts at a spell you need to land, can be frustrating.

[f0xx]

How did this thread end up again as a "mages so weak"...

[Unknown Criminal]

25 minutes ago, f0xx said:

How did this thread end up again as a "mages so weak"...

Your mage is so weak, it takes him 2 ticks to rub the dirt out of his eyes! 

Your mage is so weak, brandish is a full blown workout!

Your mage is so weak, his quarterstaff was whittled from a toothpick! 

UC