Just some thoughts from an old timer

[Trick]

14 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

everything is nerfed to make melees hit harder and faster and classes that require some skill aside from "stack mah hit/dam" to suck. 

 

Lol.

[Erelei]

1 hour ago, f0xx said:

 

I say you have no idea what you are talking about bruh...

The only cap in defences that needs to be removed is in hybrids.

Right, @Erelei? No Idea what THAT was implemented at all, to begin with.

Been over this already. 

 

[f0xx]

1 minute ago, Erelei said:

Been over this already. 

I know. Your way of thinking makes little sense though.

[Erelei]

Okay. 

[aaa]

I reckon we make parry based off current RP points.

 

[Tantangel]

@Wade, I think I laughed entirely too hard at that comment. I wonder what Donovan's would be, or any other character who's been around for a while.

I can see why a Hybrid would be capped considering their perks are vast. It kind of makes more sense to me that theirs were capped than any other. Apparently I still need to ID a bunch more items. I've found a few more that were really nice the other day that I was surprised it wasn't rare. But I also have about 12 areas I need to go through since they were either implemented into the game before I played again or just before I left and didn't bother looking into it.

[f0xx]

40 minutes ago, Tantangel said:

I can see why a Hybrid would be capped considering their perks are vast.

What perks mate? 

Hybrids are more akin to melees than to mages.

This change, as @Lloth said earlier in that PK thread, is because mages could stack a ton of AC and high +parry prof items without sacrificing their offense. A melee can not do that. Nor can a hybrid.

People complain that melees are too "strong". They are supposed to be, because mages have more survivability.

As a mage you can not be bashed. You can recall reliably while in combat. You can teleport while blind. Generally, you die as a mage only if you fuck up. That's not the case with melees. And hybrids. 

Putting hybrids in the same bowl as mages is unfair, because they do not have their survivability, they do not have their AC and now, they also have their parry gimped. And why? 

@Erelei's answer was, "Because they can cast".

Well, rangers can cast too, so can berserkers/warriors in Nexus. And blademasters. And ninjas....

Being able to cast is not good enough of a reason to consider a class similar to mages, and thus nerf them the same way mages.

 

[Tantangel]

WARNING @f0xx, this is very long by even my standards.

I don't see it as because they can cast. Rangers don't really get a defensive spell set and every class you stated has a handful of spells at best if I recall correctly. If you look at Hybrid classes though each one of them have an equal number of defensive and offensive capabilities in terms of balance between skills and spells. A Dark Knight can bash and trip, but they also have spells that would help boost their offensive capabilities to a very high degree depending on what you choose to do with the class when you're playing it. A Paladin has the ability to boost their defensive capabilities to a very high degree in the same aspect. A Druid has a ton of perks in both areas, but they seem to lean more towards communing depending on what you wear.

Thieves and Ninja's aren't labeled as hybrid though so they can still get to 110% unless they were included specifically in that change which I am unsure since I don't play either very often. Pretty much every class labeled as Hybrid uses an equal amount of spells and skills to their advantage. Sure some of those classes you point out can cast under special circumstances, but it's also incredibly unreliable when it comes down to it. Berserkers are probably the only class you pointed out that has a reliable chance to 'cast', but that's with the use of a skill in which was added to give the class more flare and more desirable to play because they were severely lacking way back when.

A Paladin and Dark Knight may be able to be bashed, but they also have those nifty skills that will cause a DK to cast an offensive spell if mastered, and for a Paladin to cast a defensive spell. Sanc drops and your enemy is a pretty hurt and you're also in the same boat but you decide to bash them? Paladin casts a cure or sanc if they're lucky and what happens if your sanc drops right then as well, but you got overzealous? Wrath? Probably dead or really hurt if you didn't wimpy it. As a DK? You get bashed, but magic missile strikes out, energy drain lands, or maybe even harm. I can't recall if it lags you at all, but if it doesn't, you're sitting pretty and a free round of running the hell away or capitalizing on that one instant. Druid? They've got a lot of perks now more so than before. They can easily get flight, but they also have access to enlarge in a very easily obtainable way. If they're bashed, well at least it wont be 3+ rounds unless it's a Fire Giant who's enlarged. Then maybe you'll get hurt. All 3 of those classes can easily get a high amount of AC though to help reduce chances of all that damage really being really pounded out.

A Melee can stack a lot of AC up just as easily though in many cases (not including dex into the mix) since they can ask any Invoker to enchant their armor for them. Some are happy to do it free of charge. Lets say that the race is human so he's average height, just throw up flight with a potion, that removes risk of tripping. If you get bashed, if you're enlarged it wont be nearly as bad if i you weren't. It's not a permanent fix like protective shield, but that's like trying to argue a point that it means a mage will never lose it. There's plenty of ways they can, and they're the exact same reasons why a melee shouldn't have too much difficulty in keeping flight and enlarge up. I know of 3 ways you can get enlarge (I wont go into specifics but I'm sure you know which 3), and flight potions for any melee can be very cheap if you know how to get gold. The difference in the two though are that the mage is going to have a much lower base HP than the melee. Add in vulns, and it can quickly go the way of the Melee over the caster. The major factors in this instance is who the player is, being prepared, and what Cabals, if any, are also in play.

Invokers can't heal themselves without the help of consumables and with that drawback, they have great offensive capabilities. The drawback of the class is many of the races are very limited in terms of HP outside of Gnome. And they're neutral, so if they have 0 reason to kill you, but do so  anyways, chances are they'll get OUTCAST. Outside of qraces, the best STR you can have as a 'mage' would be 23? Or is it 24 now? As long as you're Good at least. If you're Evil it's 25. But both of those races also means you're dumb as fuck and many times the huge amount of training time involved isn't worth it to many. I'd rather be a Monk who can 'dispel magic' you with a chii charge of 3. It blasts out many spells that prevent the people from being protected, and once special strikes hit at that point, I've gone from 900HP to 0 using a weapon unfamiliar to Monks without getting a single command in. So it's kind of an equal trade off in that sense.

The two classes I haven't commented on for Hybrids are Vampires and Bards. I have played both since returning and I could see why a Vampire wouldn't be allowed to go above 105%. Their melee output combined with spells included, would be a nightmare to most players. Add in their extremely easy survival skills, there's a good chance you could never die. As far as Bards go though, I can't really comment since I wasn't sure what I was doing at that point of returning. I was mostly just looking for things as far as mining and chopping wood meant. Knowing the success of Belderon though, I could see as to why they'd be capped at 105% as well. I'm not saying that every Bard would be like him and be very strong, but I'm sure someone could be if they thought about their tactics and such.

In the end though a Hybrid has more options than a Melee in terms of damage output than a Mage. Why do I say that? They all have access to staves/wands and/or scrolls. There are a ton of them that are overlooked and beyond defensive capabilities, many people don't bother with any that have an offensive capability. A melee has no access to them, and the only time they do they're in Herald, or there's some weapons/armor out there that do bonus damage by 'using' it or it goes off at specific points. Because of their ability to survive so easily due to such things, I believe that is why they're probably under the same category as Mages and are capped at 105%.

[Fool_Hardy]

Hybrids are OK with 105 parry. Sorry but it's true. You cap one of hybrids three defenses. Ok.

They can still max the others. And unless parry is coded to be the best defense there is, and IT was not in the beginning, then all seems fair.

[Celerity]

The question that should be asked is if hybrids require a cap to balance them or not.

In short, allowing hybrids uncapped defenses wouldn't be a bad thing, simply because they are generally inferior.

In long:

I'm of the opinion that hybrids are significantly harder to be successful with (not to play, not to survive, not anything else). By successful, I mean reaching their power peak and maintaining it over a period of time.

A caster's power peak is allegedly lower than a melee's, but it is quite easy to maintain, being generally unkillable. If you have lag protection, you are effectively invincible. Not completely, but for the vast majority of scenarios, you are.

A melee's power peak is allegedly higher than a caster's, but you are always at risk of death to lag or attrition. Although a very powerful melee can maintain their peak for quite some time, it is much less time than even a fairly powerful caster is able to do, much less the very powerful ones. Melees simply die more often. The trade off is they can amass kills much easier, especially against misplayed opponents.

I say allegedly, because although it is the common belief that melees have a greater power peak, it hasn't always been my own experience. Especially in the case of invokers and clerics. Not very relevant to this thread about hybrids though.

A hybrid is the best and worst of both worlds. You can be hard to kill, but aren't unkillable like a caster. You also have a significantly lower peak than the caster or melee. There is a reason defensive hybrids (aka paladins) never dominate. They also have hard banes. There isn't a thing a paladin can do against a powerful lagger. Erelei knows this well.

On the other end of the hybrid spectrum, you can kill weaker characters very easily, but you don't have the survivability of either a caster of melee (aka DKs). You also need to be at or near your power peak to even attempt to kill other powerful characters -- and it usually exceedingly risky. It is a lot of work, a lot to lose, and not much to gain. The last thing you want to do as a DK is to fight a tough invoker, cleric, or super heavy lagging melee.

Although a ranger is technically a hybrid in FL (melee/rogue), it plays like a straight melee, and I don't count it as one.

I'm not experienced enough with new bards to comment, but since they don't cast, they should not be defense capped by Erelei's words.

 

[Pali]

@Tantangel Paladins and DKs are still lagged by bashes, though a mounted paladin I believe resists the lag somewhat.  Either is still vulnerable to bashlock.

[Fool_Hardy]

Bards do cast, but they must first "discover" the spells.

Bards do have lag protection.

Bards SHOULD definitely be considered Hybrid.

If not, the prime example of Hybrid. 3 defenses, spell buffs, lag defense as well as lagging skill.

I love bards, I play bards, and I say if Paladin is capped so Bard should be as well.

[Tantangel]

@Pali I know they're lagged by the bash itself, but with mounted combat I don't think they can be locked into the fight (though maybe that was for trip and not bash since it's been a while since I actually played any). I was mainly pointing out the fact that if they are in either situation, spells will be cast with no lag for doing so. Once they recover from that though, they're still free to unleash other spells.

[Pali]

17 minutes ago, Tantangel said:

I know they're lagged by the bash itself, but with mounted combat I don't think they can be locked into the fight (though maybe that was for trip and not bash since it's been a while since I actually played any).

A paladin using mounted combat is immune to trip the same way someone flying is.  As for being "locked into the fight" I'm not sure what you mean - if you can be lagged, you're locked into the fight until the lag wears off.  It is definitely possible for a paladin to be bashed to death still - mounted combat helps, as did the introduction of diminishing returns to successive bashes, but it certainly can still happen.

[Tantangel]

Locked in as in the sense of being bash locked. I think with the change for diminishing returns, the chances are there sure, but it's pretty insignificant usually. If they have the HP to stand up for it, chances are they wouldn't be, but with every bash they can use a random spell when successful. It's not like bash makes them dismount, and the last time I did play one once I got mounted combat the most amount of times I actually got bashed consecutively was about 3 bashes before they missed the 4th. Depending on the foes output damage, in most cases I could usually survive. About the only time I couldn't was when they were chopping off 200+ HP every round. There's far too many factors to account for though when it comes to Paladin's being bash locked with all their perks at 50. Could it happen? Yes. Especially when it's a Giant who gets enlarged and bashes. I still think it's going to be under the seldom ever happens category though for reasons already stated.

[English lad]

10 hours ago, Tantangel said:

@Wade, I think I laughed entirely too hard at that comment. I wonder what Donovan's would be, or any other character who's been around for a while.

I can see why a Hybrid would be capped considering their perks are vast. It kind of makes more sense to me that theirs were capped than any other. Apparently I still need to ID a bunch more items. I've found a few more that were really nice the other day that I was surprised it wasn't rare. But I also have about 12 areas I need to go through since they were either implemented into the game before I played again or just before I left and didn't bother looking into it.

I think the issue with Hybrids in general is that QOL changes brought in through consumables have given Melees a lot of the same benefits.

Hybrids were essentially weaker Melees, who had some of the Ease of use of Mage / Clerical classes through easier access to they key spells.  In general Melees were tough to prep and maintain key spells.  We have had some nice QOL improvements through Herbs / additional potions (think Blackwatch, Hamlet, Merchant etc.) + due to lower average player numbers people typically have more time available where they can gather consumables without being hunted down.

Hybrids have basically lost their niche - as a pure melee pretty much always had a higher power spike (Dark-Knights is an arguable one - as I think they have always had a high power spike) - Access to the necessary spells via Consumables has never been easier, and I think this really hurts the case to play a hybrid over the associated pure Melee.

In terms of a tweaks, rather than just giving Melees generic Buffs (% defences, better -ac etc) I'd prefer that we look at the 'identity' of the class and then give them something reasonably unique that fits in line with that - for example - Dark Knights (which I think are fine) are offensive Warrior / Mage Hybrids - and they have Malform Weapon - which is a unique ability that fits that niche perfectly.

Paladins are probably the Hybrid that gets talked about most as having fallen behind the curve - and I think that this is because their strength was in having good access to defensive spells - which are more easily available (as covered above.) Paladins do have a nice unique ability in Heroism - however the two cabal choices that work for Paladin but conflict with this.  I'd say allow Paladins to use Charmies with Heroism up, and also give Heroism some additional lag affect - perhaps the Stout perk? Which would fit in with Paladins "walking fortress" identity.

[Pali]

3 hours ago, Tantangel said:

but with every bash they can use a random spell

My understanding is that dk magic strike is a random spell from a short list, but paladin magic strike is not - it is always a cure serious (if you've mastered cure serious), possibly with a cure disease/poison mixed in if I'm remembering one encounter a long time ago correctly.  Never saw it restore sanc, but then, I don't recall often being bashed with sanc down. *shrugs* Can't say for certain.

[f0xx]

49 minutes ago, English lad said:

I think the issue with Hybrids in general is...

There's no issue with hybrids.

It's just that this nerf, however small, was uncalled for, and makes no sense to begin with.

 

[Tantangel]

It does do mastered spells that benefit you in defensive ways. I've had it throw up Sanc before, and I figured that if I didn't practice cure serious, it wouldn't actually attempt it. It gave a message along the lines of, "Due to your lack of knowledge in <insert spell here>". I'm not exactly sure what the message was. So I just mastered everything that was defensive spell wise. It pretty much did every spell as long as it was at 100%. That was fighting a MOB though that managed to dispel my sanc and bash me about 400 fucking times (not literally, I was just very pissed off about that, it was probably  more like 3 in a row) and sanc was put back up. I just gave up after that though and didn't waste my time from then on. As for DK though I couldn't tell you because I haven't played one to 50 outside of Madness, so I couldn't really say for sure.

[Fool_Hardy]

If we trust Wiki, our own Wiki, then;

Hybrid classes = Dark Knight, Druid, Paladin, Bard, and Vampire.

Only question I have is, did we cap them ALL?

Hybrid = Hybrid. Hybrid can not be greater or less than Hybrid.