Munich

[CruelEdict]

You and me both. Going to get it tomorrow and watch it. Then I will be back and in greater numbers.

I am sorry' date=' but forming your opinion before watching the movie, simply based on other people's biased reviews is pretty ignorant. I do not mean ignorant in the pejorative manner, but ignorant as in lacking knowledge. I am not telling you to like it or dislike it, but you should at least form your own opinions by watching the move and not letting others dictate your thought functions. Personally, I have no opinion on the movie from being ignorant of the topic myself, but considering how controversial it sounds, I may just have to rent a copy.[/quote']

[Malchaeius]

Heh. Try to watch it in an objective manner too. Try not to come in with preconceived notions of hating it. Most of the times if you approach something with a negative view, you will dislike it despite any positive merit. Though I must admit, it will be hard to do.

[Behrens]

Sorry, but this just irks me.

FL is part of the Zionist conspiracy. Look around, it's all about you. I mean, it's owned and run by a Jew!

And this Jew supports Israel. Covert Israeli propogandafnord is fnordhidden everywhere withinfnord the fnorddepths of it.

Be-fnord-ware of secret Zionist fnord messages. They're trying to fnord subvert your fnord ideological purity.

Be fnord warned.

[Chayesh]

CE, I would also recommend some fact checking on your part to enhance your opinions.

The nation-state of Israel was not "carved out of Palestine". There is no country of Palestine. The "Palestinians" that have issue with Israel's very existence are primarily citizens of Jordan. Their roots of the conflict go much further back than the reclaiming of Israel's lost land back in the 50's. Also, American foreign policy had almost nothing to do with that either. It was the United Nations who decreed the state of Israel was to be reformed. The major push and support for the movement came from Great Britain, not the US. The nation of Israel's roots go back farther in history than any modern act. The land was claimed by right of conquest thousands of years ago based on their belief in a divine right given them by God. Their occupancy of said land was lost when the city of Jerusalem was burned to the ground in the first century AD, and the Jewish people disbursed throughout the Slavic nations and what would become Europe. Now, as far as their claim of "divine ownership", even the Palestinians and other Muslim nations do not dispute the fact that God decreed the land would be theirs. In fact, they validate this claim and that's the source of the conflict. The Muslim nations believe themselves to be descended from Ishmael, technically the firstborn son of Abraham by Hagar, his wife's servant. If you did indeed read the Torah, you would see that God declared that Abraham was out of line when he did this and that he intended his Abraham's full son by his wife Sarah, Isaac, to inherit the birthright and promise, not Ishmael. So, the Muslims believe they have legal claim to God's decree instead of the Jews, the descendants of Isaac. Funny, they don't debate the fact that God gave the land to the descendants of Abraham, just who inherited it. (I've actually always thought this a bit silly since a religion can't be "descendant" from a person like ethnicity, but nevertheless this is their claim. Additionally silly is that they claim right of inheritance when nearly every nation in the Middle East is a completely separate ethnicity from the Jewish people as they are Arabs, not Semites like the Jews.) So what you see as poor foreign policy from the US is in fact, in my mind, support of the legal claim of a sovereign nation to dwell in their own land, a claim solidified and made possible by a resolution passed by the United Nations. Additionally, they are a democratic government similar to the United States and thus are ideologically similar to the United States in governmental policy. Furthermore, one might forgive them a wee bit of paranoia as nations have essentially been attempting to wipe them off the map for the past 4 or 5 thousand years. Where the media has instrumental in damaging support of Israel, not aiding it as you suggest, is by giving weight, voice, and influence to this absurd notion that the land doesn't in fact belong to Israel when by every legal avenue it does. Their actions are what I would fully expect from a nation who has its citizens murdered daily by foreign nationals.

In my opinion, our support of Israel is not only just, but necessary for them to retain their legitimate right to dwell in their ancestral land.

Addendum: It was the United States who called them off in when they were busy kicking the *** out of Egypt when Egypt attacked them. If we hadn't gotten them to back off, they wouldn't have stopped until they reach the bottom of the Sinai peninsula.

[Boy Kid Wonder]

Wtf is fnord?

[Icor]

CE, I would also recommend some fact checking on your part to enhance your opinions.

The nation-state of Israel was not "carved out of Palestine". There is no country of Palestine. The "Palestinians" that have issue with Israel's very existence are primarily citizens of Jordan. Their roots of the conflict go much further back than the reclaiming of Israel's lost land back in the 50's. Also, American foreign policy had almost nothing to do with that either. It was the United Nations who decreed the state of Israel was to be reformed. The major push and support for the movement came from Great Britain, not the US. The nation of Israel's roots go back farther in history than any modern act. The land was claimed by right of conquest thousands of years ago based on their belief in a divine right given them by God. Their occupancy of said land was lost when the city of Jerusalem was burned to the ground in the first century AD, and the Jewish people disbursed throughout the Slavic nations and what would become Europe. Now, as far as their claim of "divine ownership", even the Palestinians and other Muslim nations do not dispute the fact that God decreed the land would be theirs. In fact, they validate this claim and that's the source of the conflict. The Muslim nations believe themselves to be descended from Ishmael, technically the firstborn son of Abraham by Hagar, his wife's servant. If you did indeed read the Torah, you would see that God declared that Abraham was out of line when he did this and that he intended his Abraham's full son by his wife Sarah, Isaac, to inherit the birthright and promise, not Ishmael. So, the Muslims believe they have legal claim to God's decree instead of the Jews, the descendants of Isaac. Funny, they don't debate the fact that God gave the land to the descendants of Abraham, just who inherited it. (I've actually always thought this a bit silly since a religion can't be "descendant" from a person like ethnicity, but nevertheless this is their claim. Additionally silly is that they claim right of inheritance when nearly every nation in the Middle East is a completely separate ethnicity from the Jewish people as they are Arabs, not Semites like the Jews.) So what you see as poor foreign policy from the US is in fact, in my mind, support of the legal claim of a sovereign nation to dwell in their own land, a claim solidified and made possible by a resolution passed by the United Nations. Additionally, they are a democratic government similar to the United States and thus are ideologically similar to the United States in governmental policy. Furthermore, one might forgive them a wee bit of paranoia as nations have essentially been attempting to wipe them off the map for the past 4 or 5 thousand years. Where the media has instrumental in damaging support of Israel, not aiding it as you suggest, is by giving weight, voice, and influence to this absurd notion that the land doesn't in fact belong to Israel when by every legal avenue it does. Their actions are what I would fully expect from a nation who has its citizens murdered daily by foreign nationals.

In my opinion, our support of Israel is not only just, but necessary for them to retain their legitimate right to dwell in their ancestral land.

Addendum: It was the United States who called them off in when they were busy kicking the *** out of Egypt when Egypt attacked them. If we hadn't gotten them to back off, they wouldn't have stopped until they reach the bottom of the Sinai peninsula.

Good Lord. I'm glad at least someone knows about Isaac and Ishmael.

Even if the movie isn't accurate, you have to remind yourself that it wasn't made to be accurate, and more importantly, doesn't have to be accurate. Sure, there's an underlying message somewhere; so what? It's a good story that's very well filmed.

[Zrothum]

lol behrens just owned BKW

[WarriorCleric]

Crueleddict hasn't even see the film. His post is in entire ignorance.

Warpnow, once again I must disag... or wait? what? oh, nevermind, I agree.

WC

[Ex-D&Der]

I thought it was a good movie because it was critical of Israel. For once Speilberg made a movie about a serious topic without making the characters like cartoon good guys and bad guys. I hated Schindler's List for that reason.

[Behrens]

Wtf is fnord?

There are no fnords. The fnords are your friends. Buy fnord American.

[MeleeCrazy]

I find this enitre thread quite amusing......and nothing more.

[CruelEdict]

CE, I would also recommend some fact checking on your part to enhance your opinions.

The nation-state of Israel was not "carved out of Palestine". There is no country of Palestine. The "Palestinians" that have issue with Israel's very existence are primarily citizens of Jordan. Their roots of the conflict go much further back than the reclaiming of Israel's lost land back in the 50's. Also, American foreign policy had almost nothing to do with that either. It was the United Nations who decreed the state of Israel was to be reformed. The major push and support for the movement came from Great Britain, not the US.

This goes back to the Balfour Declaration (1917), in which Britain was in favor of creating a Jewish State in then Palestine. Since at that point the land was controlled by Arabs who had been in the region since the Jews were mostly expelled, that is where the resent comes towards the West. American support of Israel after '48 is the large cause of our grief with Muslim nations and is practically the only reason we are involved in Iraq right now and why we are threatening the peaceful Persian nation of Iran with sanctions, etc. We defend Israel despite our ideological differences and their non-Democratic, intolerant militaristic policies.

The nation of Israel's roots go back farther in history than any modern act. The land was claimed by right of conquest thousands of years ago based on their belief in a divine right given them by God. Their occupancy of said land was lost when the city of Jerusalem was burned to the ground in the first century AD' date=' and the Jewish people disbursed throughout the Slavic nations and what would become Europe. Now, as far as their claim of "divine ownership", even the Palestinians and other Muslim nations do not dispute the fact that God decreed the land would be theirs. In fact, they validate this claim and that's the source of the conflict. The Muslim nations believe themselves to be descended from Ishmael, technically the firstborn son of Abraham by Hagar, his wife's servant. If you did indeed read the Torah, you would see that God declared that Abraham was out of line when he did this and that he intended his Abraham's full son by his wife Sarah, Isaac, to inherit the birthright and promise, not Ishmael. So, the Muslims believe they have legal claim to God's decree instead of the Jews, the descendants of Isaac. Funny, they don't debate the fact that God gave the land to the descendants of Abraham, just who inherited it. (I've actually always thought this a bit silly since a religion can't be "descendant" from a person like ethnicity, but nevertheless this is their claim. Additionally silly is that they claim right of inheritance when nearly every nation in the Middle East is a completely separate ethnicity from the Jewish people as they are Arabs, not Semites like the Jews.) So what you see as poor foreign policy from the US is in fact, in my mind, support of the legal claim of a sovereign nation to dwell in their own land, a claim solidified and made possible by a resolution passed by the United Nations. [/quote']

Using religion to justify a claim is ridiculous. The Jews there lost their claim to that land when they were expelled over some 1,000+ years from the region. The Arab people of the region were not given a choice, the land was taken and Israel was created. It is the "War of Independance" that won them Israel, with vital support from the Western nation - not some peaceful acknowledgement of the Jewish claims, no - it was naked force that settled it. Not that force isn't what solves all problems, but their claim to that area is questionable (especially when factoring out religion).

Additionally' date=' they are a democratic government similar to the United States and thus are ideologically similar to the United States in governmental policy. Furthermore, one might forgive them a wee bit of paranoia as nations have essentially been attempting to wipe them off the map for the past 4 or 5 thousand years. Where the media has instrumental in damaging support of Israel, not aiding it as you suggest, is by giving weight, voice, and influence to this absurd notion that the land doesn't in fact belong to Israel when by every legal avenue it does. Their actions are what I would fully expect from a nation who has its citizens murdered daily by foreign nationals.[/quote']

They are a coalition Gov't, which is a bit different than our "Democracy". The reason they are so paranoid is because they ticked off every nation around them by attacking them and stealing additional lands (and not returning them). Hell, why should they be paranoid, they are the only nation with nuclear arms in the region. That is, of course, a good look at Israeli hypocrisy - they launched a strike against Iraqi civilian nuclear facilities and are up in arms about Iran's research in the same field, yet they are the ones with the nukes - no one else.

Wait? You think THEY are murdered daily by foreign nationals? Read the news. Often, we hear about supposed rocket attacks (which at best injure a few, if that) and which are promptly responded to with multiple air strikes which often leave many innocent civilians dead.

I would also like to note what happened to the USS Liberty - as plenty of people seem to forget that incident. Such great allies the Israelis are!

As far as the media damaging Israel's reputation, no reputable media outlet questions anything Israel does. They might have opposing views in the article, but typically the wording and reported information are not critical of Israel.

In my opinion' date=' our support of Israel is not only just, but necessary for them to retain their legitimate right to dwell in their ancestral land.[/quote']

"Ancestral" land arguments are ridiculous - they conquered that territory. Plain and simple. Hell, I cannot be critical of that. They went in, took that land and are sitting on it. Force is an absolute. However, the problem I have is not Israel's claim to that land, in a technical fashion, it is American sentiment that Israel is an ally and our unceasing aid to them (billions of taxpayer dollars have been lost to that nation, not to mention American lives lost in wars in the MidEast to protect them). Claim or no claim, let the Arabs and Israelis settle that matter however they wish - but let us keep our noses out of it and keep the AIPAC and other pro-Israel/Zionist groups from further causing harm to this nation.

Addendum: It was the United States who called them off in when they were busy kicking the *** out of Egypt when Egypt attacked them. If we hadn't gotten them to back off' date=' they wouldn't have stopped until they reach the bottom of the Sinai peninsula.[/quote']

Right - America has always struggled ideologically with Israel as an ally. They are an aggressive and radical nation. Their militarism is pretty clear and they will stop at nothing to neuter their neighbors. The nations around them clearly were paranoid because of Israeli aggression in the Six Day War prior to the Yom Kippur War that you reference. They launched a pre-emptive strike and proceeded to conquer territory (which only one portion of was returned).

Also, lets not forget the Lavon Affair, while we are at it.

We have plenty of reasons to not support Israel - not including what the pro-Zionist lobbies have done to American foreign policy and the direct impact of that on our current military actions, etc.

[MeleeCrazy]

see? amusing...

[Chayesh]

Again, I point out there are no Arab peoples native to the region. Semitic tribes occupied the region when Joshua and the Hebrew nation left Egypt and conquered the territory. When the people were disbursed under Roman rule in the first century, Arab peoples occupied Israeli lands, not vice versa. Israel was restored to their rightful place.

Oh, BTW, if religion is a ridiculous way to claim right to a land than the Palestinians and the Muslim nations have no claim to Israel's land either. The point of my other post that you declined to comment on was their claim to the land is derived from the SAME RELIGIOUS CLAIM that God divinely declared the land was an inheritance to Abraham's son. The heart of the conflict goes all the way back to the situation I mentioned: Isaac and Ishmael. Both the Muslims and the Jews claim ancestral right by divine decree. If the Jews are wrong for doing so, then so are the Muslims.

[Lexi]

It is like that time when some undead guys took over Miruvhor, because in the old, old, old days Virigoth had said they could. Problem is, the sitting government liked sitting there, so they started arguing about who could sit and who could not. Eventually, someone else came along and had more swords than everyone else and now the Tribunals sit there occasionally.

Or that time, when Eshaine wanted to do something crazy and started planting walking trees in Val Miran. They just walked all over the place, which the citizens didn't like very much. But the trees walked anyway. Because a long, long time ago, there used to be a grove where Val Miran was built. And Eshaine wanted trees to grow there again. And so they did. But, again, the people didn't like that, and started smithing evil plans and hatches. And now the Tribunals occassionaly sit in Val Miran too.

See!

Tribunal = Israel

Watcher = Palestine

Syndicate = Evil

On a more serious note, both the palestines and israelians(is that the correct term), have legal claims, or that's what they think anyway. The more people one side shoot, the lesser is the chance the other side will aknowledge those very claims. I think the whole thing could had done in a much less violent way, with jews and muslims co-existing in relative peace. Ahh, well... Perhaps I'm too optimistic.

[Chayesh]

For the record, an Israeli is someone from Israel, formerly referred to as Israelites.

[Ghost_of_an_Elf]

israeli(s) is more correct I think, but they're probably the only ones who care.

[Ex-D&Der]

Tindal is basically right except for the part about it not being in the U.S. interest to support Israel. Yes AIPAC is influential, but I think the basic reason U.S. policymakers go for this is that they believe that a capitalist/democratic Middle East will produce an open door vis-a-vis oil, and Israel is believed to be a beachhead for transforming the entire region. Now you could make the case that this has backfired by producing hostility from Arab countries, but I think the view of policymakers is that you have to take a long-term view of it. It's crazy and may produce World War III but then so was rollback during the Cold War.

That and people generally accept the moral case for Israel because of the Holocaust, a mistaken view that two wrongs make a right IMO.

The case against Israel is ultimately a moral one IMO. The land was expropriated from the Arabs who lived there. I don't think biblical arguments or claims of what God wants hold much water. At a minimum the land should have been partitioned as the UN mandated, and should now be restored to the 1948 borders, all settlements ended, UN resolutions 242 and 338 complied with, etc. etc. But ideally Arabs and Jews would have the exact same rights there, which would mean that Israel would no longer be a Jewish state.

[Behrens]

Tindal is basically right except for the part about it not being in the U.S. interest to support Israel. Yes AIPAC is influential, but I think the basic reason U.S. policymakers go for this is that they believe that a capitalist/democratic Middle East will produce an open door vis-a-vis oil, and Israel is believed to be a beachhead for transforming the entire region. Now you could make the case that this has backfired by producing hostility from Arab countries, but I think the view of policymakers is that you have to take a long-term view of it. It's crazy and may produce World War III but then so was rollback during the Cold War.

That and people generally accept the moral case for Israel because of the Holocaust, a mistaken view that two wrongs make a right IMO.

The case against Israel is ultimately a moral one IMO. The land was expropriated from the Arabs who lived there. I don't think biblical arguments or claims of what God wants hold much water. At a minimum the land should have been partitioned as the UN mandated, and should now be restored to the 1948 borders, all settlements ended, UN resolutions 242 and 338 complied with, etc. etc. But ideally Arabs and Jews would have the exact same rights there, which would mean that Israel would no longer be a Jewish state.

Actually, the Israelis tried several times to allow the return of the lands to the Palestinians. The 1948 borders are called the "Auschwitz lines" because of their total indefensibility. Remember that as soon as Israel became a country it came under attack from every Arab nation there. Israel has found that the Palestinians have never held their part of any peace treaty ever signed, from the Suez to Oslo. Therefore, they followed the logical course of walling themselves off from the troublemaking Palestinians and staying seperate.

Following the UN resolutions is suicide for a state that is the only (well, first, now that Iraq is) representative democracy in the Middle East. I don't see why we should insist that any state move against their own self-interest.

Each country in the world has the right to exist and to defend their own people. Israel is just doing the same as every other state.

[Chayesh]

The US foreign policy of alliance with Great Britain and France, as well as, membership in the United Nations has endangered and cost FAR more lives than any support of Israel.

As far as Iran goes, Iran was our ally ALSO before the Shah was couped. Their new leader is a loon. Any spread of nuclear weapons endangers everyone on the planet. I see no reason to apologize for our foreign policy there. As members of the UN, they need to abide by the same rules as everyone else.

As far as the physical land, religious arguments aside, historically the land belongs to Israel and has for thousands of years. While you may not agree with the religious aspects of the Bible's content, its record historically and archaeologically has been proven accurate time and time again. It is crucial again to mention that no one involved in the conflict with Israel disputes this right to the land from a religious standpoint. The argument is over right of inheritance.

As far as how the land was settled in the 50's, it WAS divided as mandated by the UN. The additional lands occupied by Israel up until recently were lands lost to Israel during attacks by other nations against them. Israel also held a whole mess of land they gave back to Egypt as already mentioned.

You cannot separate religion from this debate, no matter what you personally believe. It is the heart of the debate between the Jews and the Muslims. Again, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If religious claims hold no water, that applies to both the Jews and the Muslims, as they BOTH claim such.

[Celerity]

Alright, let's break up the USA into the tribal nations again..we've gotta does this right if we're gonna do it!

[Chayesh]

Let's see...California, New Mexico, and Texas go back to Mexico...Alaska to the Inuits. Hawaii can be a sovereign Polynesian nation again. Florida back to Spain and the Seminole tribes...

[Ghost_of_an_Elf]

And all the rest of us can get shipped back to whereever our ancestors are from. I'll be in England if you need me.

[MeleeCrazy]

BWAHAHAHA...I'm lovin this, continue please..

[Icor]

Holy crap. I just wanted to talk about the movie.