snoopers

[Fool_Hardy]

@Gaunticles brother your in good company.

We should start our own club and call it glutton for punishment. Or Subtext support for serial sad sacks.

I miss @Diten, and @H&R, the skirmishes the two of them put me through made me much better. Heck, before Diten, I did not get it period. The timing, the telegraphing, everything. Learning to wait took longer than you can imagine. Timing will allow @Firemanto smoke me in PK even if I have the superior gear and class/cabal combo. He just gets it, understands the ebb and flow better. Like a boxer, he can waste jabs, or watch for the open chin. The best players see your hands low before they even kick dirt in your eyes. Nighty night.

Diten told me to play a WM, said condeath in the camp would make me great, Still haven't done it, know I need too, so I offer the same advice to you.

[Gaunticles]

22 minutes ago, Wade said:

@Lloth No one likes being a punching bag forever and I feel like that's an area that could be worked on. There's not enough gap closing mechanics which leads to a steep learning curve. 

Honestly you'd have to be a sadist to be a new player here. 

I agree but this is why it's so hard. I cannot imagine a change that will address the issue without drastically changing the way everybody plays. The top players who have been faithfully playing for so long will feel marginalized by any changes that take away the edge they have built up by dedicating themselves to the game. There isn't a fair way to go about it.

I do like what Lloth said about RP. Maybe I will come back and try a different approach when I can come up with something interesting. 

 

Even with the problems, I have with PVP I really did enjoy the game, I always felt like a real adventurer exploring areas, especially the older areas that don't get much attention.  There are lots of cool secret places and if you happen to find one that many people don't know about it's really cool.  Like the time I was messing around and found out secret faction that's no longer in use. Also, leveling up monks is really fun seeing all the kung fu moves. 

[ajwetton]

But sadly thats the nature of games, whether its here or LoL or Wow or almost any game thats competitive. it just takes time and commitment to play the game to actually learn. I mean you can't hop on WoW and insta 110 your toon and hop into competitive arena and expect to get R1 glad. or end up in diamond or above in LoL the first week of being in ranked matches having never played a MOBA before. You can't insta make someone better, it just takes time and effort. If you had a new player here and steered them to an easy class to explore with, one basically self sufficent and had someone kinda guiding them through things IC or OCC they could pick up the basics pretty quickly but they're not gonna kill foxx or probably anyone for that matter on their first 50.... its just not gonna happen.

 

 

[Gaunticles]

1 minute ago, ajwetton said:

But sadly thats the nature of games, whether its here or LoL or Wow or almost any game thats competitive. it just takes time and commitment to play the game to actually learn. I mean you can't hop on WoW and insta 110 your toon and hop into competitive arena and expect to get R1 glad. or end up in diamond or above in LoL the first week of being in ranked matches having never played a MOBA before. You can't insta make someone better, it just takes time and effort. If you had a new player here and steered them to an easy class to explore with, one basically self sufficent and had someone kinda guiding them through things IC or OCC they could pick up the basics pretty quickly but they're not gonna kill foxx or probably anyone for that matter on their first 50.... its just not gonna happen.

 

 

I get what you are saying but I'm not a new player and I have dedicated a very considerable amount of time.   I joined in 2010 but I played FL before I knew they had an online website. I just want to be clear I'm not someone who just started and tried to pick up the game. 

All the games you listed I do very well at with considerably less time invested. LoL or Wow is easymode compared to FL, Dark Souls it easymode compared to FL.

[aaa]

The other games you mention have matchmaking where you play against people of similar skill level. 

What we have here is like an open lobby cs game. 

[ajwetton]

2 hours ago, Lloth said:

Why do you say that? You don't need PK to be successful. You can always learn that side, anyway.

I agree, personally I thnk FL needs more of these players, the non pk monsters the story writers, the constant RP'ers. It doesn't have to be a herald, or even a merchant. But Thats what I try to work on more is my RP because honestly I will never be a PK powerhouse, i'm happy to hold my own and if they run off call that a win. Because I come here for the evolving story. If you've got amazing RP please don't quit, be one of those people on all the time whos driving plots, even small ones. Have a cool angle and work your way into most things. This game needs that because honestly all to often I see this silent PK no RP, or no RP till after they've crapped on you and its a HEH HEH HEH kind of RP, not knocking that if thats what theyw anna do but I LIVE for people to tell stories in this game.

[ajwetton]

Just now, Wade said:

The other games you mention have matchmaking where you play against people of similar skill level. 

What we have here is like an open lobby cs game. 

You mean the match making where people just SMURF and shit on people while they're really diamond or higher? or 2k or higher? you can always throw rating if you don't care about it. Match making isn't really that useful, i've played wow arenas for multiple seasons and at least 3-4 times a season i get into a 2k+ match as a 1500 arena squad.... its super easy to get around match making. And even in norms on LoL i get put against diamond people and my ranked acct is bronze because i dont take it super serious.

[Fool_Hardy]

Never played any of those letter games myself.

Played guild wars for a but, killed in pvp because I knew from experience here how to take down a party.

Going to gear these days, no big deal, think Mali and I walked it earlier this year. Back in the day, I watched groups of five and six get mowed down in there.

Always the same, healer dies first, tank drops out, and the fight is won. Win button for Guild wars, not saying I never lost, but when I lost I lost to this strategy.

FTR, I think you get great at FL through practice. Sanctuary is overused and Identify underutilized. The world shifted, something changed. Maybe, maybe you can find what.

[ajwetton]

Most of this game is learned by using Identify i've kept notepad files of ID's directions to things etc so when i stop playing i still have the info and dont have to really re-learn it. But Itemization is really just knowing what pieces of gear are ideal and work your way backwards its not like every time you die you have to figure out what pieces you need if you play the same class a few times you kinda get the general idea of what you need. Consumables again just playing SHOULD teach you this if you're paying attention, the consumables don't really change maybe some get added but they don't change. Weapon selection just comes to trying to wear a weapon they dont know, which can be picked up via the Wiki really easily, oh im playing a WM and theres these 4 classes, ok so look them up and pick something they dont know. Knowing areas can take some time but after years of playing you should be able to remember the areas, even I still get some wrong direction imputs but it doesn't bother me that much. and chasing is the other thing really, and that just comes from practicing chasing. knowing what areas lead to others and making educated guesses as to which way they are likely to run. Some of things you mentioned on your list you should be most of the way finished with if you've been here that long. However it depends on what your emphasis is, I can tell you characters that had AMAZING RP but for me I couldn't give a shit about my PK record so i couldn't tell you very many "PK Powerhouse" toons, because PK records come and go, RP plots shape the game and the world we're in. Yes its nice to be able to talk smack and back it up by wrecking someone in pk, but like LLoth said you can be a monster and NEVER have a kill on your record.

[aaa]

26 minutes ago, ajwetton said:

Match making isn't really that useful. 

It works for me in the games Ive played (rocket league, csgo, DotA2). 

I dont recall playing against any pros in those games besides when I was 99th percentile for DotA2 in my region. 

 

[ajwetton]

Ive literally played CSGO and come against people who had like 2000hrs in game and were high rank, I don't have the titles memorized cause honestly CSGO is aids but i googled the title order after I viewed profiles in games when people were wrecking my team. Its not an every game thing but it does happen. And none of those games are open world RPG games, you can't match  make this game. Unfortunately its the nature of the beast the only real way to get  better at this game and learn it is to spend hours in here. theres not really a magical way to make someone good at it. I think Journeyman was a great start though but top tier PKer's or the "PROS" in this game are gonna still own you can't magically make up skill and experience via a catch-up mechanic.

[Lloth]

1 hour ago, Wade said:

@Lloth No one likes being a punching bag forever and I feel like that's an area that could be worked on. There's not enough gap closing mechanics which leads to a steep learning curve. 

Honestly you'd have to be a sadist to be a new player here. 

I suppose I'm not clear on what you're suggesting here. Should we, effectively, punish veteran players for their skill? Because that's what happens in highly-competitive games where new players are given serious advantages. And that's the issue I see with this approach. We already have Journeyman. That's a sizeable benefit. It is far more often the case than not, that players struggling with PK don't use Journeyman. Whether it is because they feel it is a set of training wheels they don't want/need, or that it cheapens the learning experience, the usage of Journeyman simply does not correlate to the sheer number of characters struggling to make an impact in PK.

 

That much is not a fault in the system. We would never even dream of forcing players to use a tool they don't want to. However, in that same vein, it would be horrible practice to instead kneecap players that legitimately do not need it to compete among the top percentile. What would be the point, then, of getting any better? If you knew that beyond a certain point, you'd be either stuck not competing with half of the game, or being severely handicapped in order to make it easier for the competition, why would you even bother to master the intricacies of the system?

 

If the problem is the variance in skill, then the solution should be educational, not forced handicaps. The pitfall of educationally based approaches is being unwilling to learn. But at least then, the failure isn't on the game itself, but on the players that don't want to put in the effort and yet still complain about not being as good at PK. No game should ever be run that way. It's toxic for both development and sustainability, especially in highly competitive games.

 

Also, as a side note, comparing FL to rated-PvP systems is apples and oranges. They stronger case is using WoW's open-world PvP system. 

[Magick]

If it makes you feel better @Gaunticles, I can almost guarantee you've got more PK wins under your belt than I do.  Mostly because I suck at PK (because I tend to avoid it) and prefer the RP aspect of the game.
It's why you'll rarely, if ever, hear me give PK advice on logs.

Lloth also makes an extremely valid point.  Not enough people use Journeyman that should.  And that probably includes myself.  You may tell yourself that you don't need or don't want "training wheels," but that's probably just pride talking.  I know pride and I may need to sit down for a little heart to heart one of these days.

Experience is a great teacher, but if you want to get better, then log more and post more on prayer/PK.  The well of knowledge here will show you your mistakes so you can understand what you did wrong and get back in the game so you can make other, different mistakes.  Eventually, you'll run out of mistakes from ignorance.

 

[aaa]

3 hours ago, Lloth said:

I suppose I'm not clear on what you're suggesting here. Should we, effectively, punish veteran players for their skill? Because that's what happens in highly-competitive games where new players are given serious advantages. And that's the issue I see with this approach.

Plenty of sports and games use a handicap system. It shouldn't be viewed negatively, I'm sure golfers don't see it that way.
 

3 hours ago, Lloth said:

 We already have Journeyman. That's a sizeable benefit. It is far more often the case than not, that players struggling with PK don't use Journeyman. Whether it is because they feel it is a set of training wheels they don't want/need, or that it cheapens the learning experience, the usage of Journeyman simply does not correlate to the sheer number of characters struggling to make an impact in PK.

Agree, let's make it easier to get. I believe a prayer post asking for it on a character should suffice, otherwise an automated system.

 

3 hours ago, Lloth said:

Why would you even bother to master the intricacies of the system?

I see where you're coming from, but I'd argue a new or returning player is asking this same question themselves. 

Chasing, tactics and other things won't be affected at all. All these pk skills is the incentive. I dunno, I feel like I'm not making my point very well, I may return to this.

 

3 hours ago, Lloth said:

If the problem is the variance in skill, then the solution should be educational, not forced handicaps.

Did you ever hear about when they were bringing cs to consoles and allowed crossplay between console and pc? Story

My suggestion is more akin to giving the console players mild auto assist as opposed to say, giving the pc players less damage.

 

3 hours ago, Lloth said:

It's toxic for both development and sustainability, especially in highly competitive games.

Whats the worst that could happen? Truth be told, sustainability is kinda already down and I'm not sure if it's possible to get more toxic lol.

 

3 hours ago, Lloth said:

Also, as a side note, comparing FL to rated-PvP systems is apples and oranges. They stronger case is using WoW's open-world PvP system. 

I'd say we're more like Eve.

[Dale]

The main reason I played dark souls and many others also is because of the difficulty, honestly that's one of my favorite things about the mud.  There used to be mystery to it but it's slowly fading away.

[English lad]

Quote

If the problem is the variance in skill, then the solution should be educational, not forced handicaps. The pitfall of educationally based approaches is being unwilling to learn. But at least then, the failure isn't on the game itself, but on the players that don't want to put in the effort and yet still complain about not being as good at PK. No game should ever be run that way. It's toxic for both development and sustainability, especially in highly competitive games.

I completely agree that education is key to people enjoying PK more.  What are the options for Education in FL at the moment?

Newbie experience is pretty much non-existent - as people power level to 50 in days, and there is no real interaction before 50.  When i was new i was told to level up to 30, grab some mithril, onyx rings, etc and PK at that level for a bit to learn.  This isn't really an option for people anymore.

The Academy might as well not exist and the basic quest lines exists for people to run through them for some free exp until they can buy their Alsatian, rather than actually teaching new players the ins and out of the game.

There are a few people that will offer advice etc on the forum - but that doesn't take the place of proper education. I would say the only option for proper education at the moment is joining a cabal, and bugging the experienced players for help - which is fine in some cases, but I don't think we have the playerbase logged in often enough for that to be the sole means of education.

The wiki is a good resource - but the last I checked we weren't able to add new items to it? It is also missing a lot of the 'super' equipment that you see on people.  I'd be happy to load IDs on things, and did in the past - but the reality is that the small group of people who have that equipment don't seem to have been interested in loading IDs on up until now.

Right now FL is a game that 'works' because the majority of the playerbase are veterans, and already have the information that the game doesn't really give you.  I appreciate that is probably the reality of where we are in the games life-cycle, but as an eternal optimist i'd love to see some time spent on User Experience, Understanding player journeys, what works for people, what doesn't etc.

[ajwetton]

_{I agree that the game needs more education, I personally love the idea of the Academy and it leading to Herald which is a great place to be able to explore and learn because you get access to scrolls/wands etc even as classes who dont get them. Plus if you took addict you could buff yourself like crazy with no negative side effects. , I want to run a Herald/Teacher but the problem I run into is that I haven't ran across any one whos new. So when theres no one to teach its hard to do that. I wish we had a way of getting new blood in the game.}

[Kyzarius]

Most bowlers hate handicaps.  It lets people who haven't put in years of practice win your money.  Source : I bowl in leagues for money lol. 

 

[Ali_gmud]

Wasn't there a newbie chat system a while back? Does such still exist?

[Magick]

1 minute ago, ajwetton said:

_{I wish we had a way of getting new blood in the game.}

Advertising.

You've got two main ways of going about that.  Word of mouth and paid advertising.  The latter is really the former, but other people do it for you for money through various means.

Word of mouth, honestly, isn't getting us very far.  But it's free, and everyone loves free.  MUDs in general are relics of an era and we're too few to really get things going.  We as a community haven't been pushing the WoM aspect nearly as hard as we could or should.  You just have to look at the TMS votes each month to see that, keeping in mind that our final numbers are inflated by the few who vote multiple times per day on multiple platforms.  So obviously, we need help if we're really intent on getting new blood in.

In comes paid advertising.  The way to get out there and reach a larger audience.  Granted, you often get what you pay for.  Couple bucks might get you a line in the bottom of a blog.  But this is a crap shoot, be it $2 or $20,000.  Advertising always is, paid or otherwise.  Large companies spend millions to get a few thousand more people through their doors, of which only a few hundred might be repeat customers.
The Staff here have stated that they don't want to use the donation money for advertising for this reason among others.  It's not guaranteed and the money is potentially "better spent" on server fees.  And I understand and respect that.

And yet, it could pay off.  We honestly don't know.

I've been toying with the idea of approaching the Immortals with the idea of taking donations (preferred), or using current funds specifically for the purpose of an "advertising test run," as it were.  I guess now is as good a time as any.  Adding a banner to TMS's rotation is $25/mo or $150 for 7; buy 6, get 1 free.  As of current, I've not really looked anywhere else.  TMS is populated by people who MUD and people looking to MUD.  Rule #1: Know your market.  If it works, bonus.  If it doesn't, that's why there's test runs.  Though one run isn't necessarily indicative of success or failure, but I digress.

@Immortals willing, I'd like to see us give it a try and am more than willing to help start the donation pool.  The $150 for 7 months isn't a bad deal, I think.  A run of 7 months is better than just the one-off month, but I'll take what I get.  And if we go with the specific intent to advertise in this fashion, they might be more agreeable.  Just be warned that we probably won't see things immediately and honestly, may not see anything at all.

If, by chance, people want to donate and we go over the $150, we can either put it toward another run (if there is another run), or toward server fees.

A new thread for this can always be made.

[Magick]

3 minutes ago, Ali_gmud said:

Wasn't there a newbie chat system a while back? Does such still exist?

Still there.  Level 1-15 gets the Newbie channel, and I believe Heralds get it back as well.  One can also apply for channel access, subject to Imm approval.

[Ali_gmud]

There's people on Fiverr.com who would play 'any game with you' for $5 granted its a game they have, or could download for free. I was wondering if a sinking 30 bucks into getting six new faces in the game for an hour each would be enough for them to come back later in their own time. Possibly. Likely not. Depending on the people I suppose, and how their experience with the game is.

[Kyzarius]

lol, I could hire some malform fodder? 

[Magick]

25 minutes ago, Ali_gmud said:

There's people on Fiverr.com who would play 'any game with you' for $5 granted its a game they have, or could download for free. I was wondering if a sinking 30 bucks into getting six new faces in the game for an hour each would be enough for them to come back later in their own time. Possibly. Likely not. Depending on the people I suppose, and how their experience with the game is.

Or get them to write reviews to post on TMS or other sites.  Design a logo for the site.  Stream a couple hours on Twitch or YouTube.  The medium itself doesn't matter, as long as word gets out.

And doing something like this I doubt that you'd need Imm permission for.

Hell, one of US could stream something like this.  I have no idea the response for something like that, but it's an option.

[Dale]

I still tell almost everyone I meet about this game