snoopers

[Mmm Coffee]

I don't think waiting two weeks for getting a qrace at level 15 is much to ask IMO.  It SHOULD be harder due to obvious perks it brings.  Maybe it would have been shorter if you went to 30 first? 

[ajwetton]

Not only that Did you have the RP points/pk needed on the helpfiles? I see alot of people waiting for q things for an extended time ive had it happen to me and in retrospect it was something on my end, I.E not actively RPing, just logging hours etc. The less you put in after your app the more they're gonna make you wait for a q thing. Ive waited HELLA long times for demon and or psi, because after my APP I didn't put in as much effort. and again I agree waiting 2 weeks isn't that big of a deal, you don't have to log 10hrs a day for 2 weeks, this game has NEVER been about instant gratification. its a Roleplaying game, it takes time and investment. And considering there was hinting that you went off on them in prayer forum i'd say you were lucky you got it. Its not like they get paid to do this, personally if someone treated me like crap and went off on me about an app i'd insta deny it.

[egreir]

Always a treat checkin these forums every so often. 

[Anume]

Wait times will always differ and depend a lot on the rp the character has already shown us. This goes from the moment of creation. I've approved a vamp app as soon as it was sent once, bc I already was familiar with the character, had seen several rp logs, journals and notes and watched them rp with others. They also got already a shoutout from other players  when they were below level 10.

If you log on, do nothing, wait till you can log off and then log off, I will not approve your application. Then it might take weeks or months, until you finally decide to rp in the time you are there.

This is not aimed at Trick but a general comment on how I - personally - handle apps.

And yes, it is my opinion that a difference in wait times, depending on the rp already shown, status gained, current situation regarding balance (how many of that slot are already around, how many others want it) is completely ok.

[Trick]

14 hours ago, ajwetton said:

Not only that Did you have the RP points/pk needed on the helpfiles? I see alot of people waiting for q things for an extended time ive had it happen to me and in retrospect it was something on my end, I.E not actively RPing, just logging hours etc. The less you put in after your app the more they're gonna make you wait for a q thing. Ive waited HELLA long times for demon and or psi, because after my APP I didn't put in as much effort. and again I agree waiting 2 weeks isn't that big of a deal, you don't have to log 10hrs a day for 2 weeks, this game has NEVER been about instant gratification. its a Roleplaying game, it takes time and investment. And considering there was hinting that you went off on them in prayer forum i'd say you were lucky you got it. Its not like they get paid to do this, personally if someone treated me like crap and went off on me about an app i'd insta deny it.

I had 59 RP, the requirement is 30, and the PK I needed. I was even allowed to apply to Knight at level 15. I'm not sure if @Erelei was the one to allow me to apply or if another IMM did it on his behalf - I assume him because at the time he was in charge of Knight. I waited out the entire 7 day cabal application period and then some before I eventually got tired of waiting around.

I didn't "go off'. I posted that I am tired of waiting around to meet up with one person and if I'm not an Avatar then I'm going to delete and play something else.

I do want to say that there have been IMMs that have been supportive of my situation and agree with me on my personal experience regarding Avatar wait time.

[Unknown Criminal]

Snoopers are spy's for other muds  

[Erelei]

7 hours ago, Fireman said:

I do want to say that there have been IMMs that have been supportive of my situation and agree with me on my personal experience regarding Avatar wait time.

What’s the point in saying something like this? If these IMMs agree with you they sure don’t show it during it vote sessions regarding wait times.

[Trick]

5 minutes ago, Erelei said:

What’s the point in saying something like this? If these IMMs agree with you they sure don’t show it during it vote sessions regarding wait times.

So that people are aware that there are reasonable members of the Staff that don't necessarily agree with the situation I experienced.

 

 

[Tantangel]

I'll give you a pre-warning for this post. It is not aimed at anyone specifically in terms of my thoughts really, so if you feel that it is, I apologize. I do point out specifics with three people, but two in jest and the other from experience over the years. They're not meant to purposely hurt others feelings or directly related to what any particular player or staff member may be feeling. And this is long too, so I apologize to @f0xx and kindly tell him he should probably not read this at all.

From my experience on wait times, I have seen they tend to vary drastically depending on what you're waiting for. I hate waiting, especially when I was working and playing because it meant I could have a ton of time on days off to dick around doing nothing (Specifically when no one else was online which created the writing of RP notes outside of the game instead to fend off boredom), and then the days that I did work would be the times I'd usually get approved and have to wait upwards of 10 days before I could play completely. I'll agree with @Anume on her approval times for things. Whether I see eye to eye with her on them or not, she's kind of got a point when it comes to input. My first Vamp I had 0 kills I think by then, but a quest was given to kill another player who wanted Undead. I was approved very quickly, and this was years before journals and other such methods. It was the most memorable for me PK wise and RP wise simply because the whole experience was unique. Years later I have tried to come close to mirroring such feats, but I've not come close. Typically the RP angle is what limits us in getting it quickly though.

I see wait times as a huge issue in terms of retaining though. Why force a person to wait to get something weeks (and months I'd be done entirely myself since I've got school now, and over 300 video games I can play for instant gratification), just deny their app with a suggestion for future improvements like you've done for me before, or deny it and tell them what they may still need to require to get it without feeling they needed to delete the character. In this instance your requirements need to be seriously updated to be more clear in terms of all needs that need to be met. I'd be willing to help write those if I know what some of them were that I haven't already been denied for in the past, but I would really recommend that different requirements based on the characters level be broken down to in what they need to have happen. Although the hours played stipulations were removed for qclasses/races, I think they may as well be put back now that people can rank so quickly. If an hour of him playing wasn't enough for the character to have the RP to back him, then he shouldn't have been allowed to apply to begin with. Instead I propose it be an RP point limit to apply though. You need to have at least 20 RP points to apply, but unless someone has written out a huge background on their character before rolling, (I'm looking at you @Pali) they probably aren't going to have it. The only way around that is the few quests you can do to boost yours, but you can also get around this by creating a level check to get into those parts of the game preventing them from getting the requirements needed before you've had a chance to really feel out a character. You can also make it so it can't be applied for unless you've got at least 40RP points and even once you've got that you can still use them down to 20 before you get that note.

If I'm playing a character and I get approved for something in  less than a day, I usually will think that the same thing will happen the next time I do so. Unfortunately that is not the case when it happens, and sometimes it takes upwards of 2 weeks, but by then I'm bored and want to do something else entirely. I would highly recommend changing wait times for such things to less than a week, and if you do have someone to fill in for you if you're too busy to be IG, it keeps those standards and fewer people feeling like they're possibly being plotted against. I would also say to hardcode some quests for the quest races instead of individual RP. You more than likely have a lot of other things to worry about other than applicants once they're approved, and in so doing, it takes a little more off your plate. You can have it be forgiving, or even vastly vary depending on responses given. You already know the characters RP, give trust to them that they'll continue with it without the need to control everything. I'll give an example based off my previous job. A manager I had  trusted people to do the right thing while not being completely supervised. This allowed individuals to flourish in their jobs, while some would fall back and eventually begin a disciplinary process if it was to get too bad. It is also he reason why that particular Manager had moved up quickly, but also was the most respected. When it ever got to the point of being disciplined it was well known that the individuals who were felt awful because they took advantage of the trust that was extended to them and in doing such, very few ever left while he was still our Manager. A few months after I had left to go into training, I went to the Manager many said I'd learn the most from. This person could not teach me anything, as I already had a skill level higher than his, but his managing style was very totalitarian. He refused to let others grow that didn't see his own ways and the only way to be promoted from under him was to accept that he would yell at you on the sales floor, resulting in many breaking down. At one point this was so bad that a Customer made a YouTube video complaint about this individual and it was sent to Corporate who let this slide for years. He was already demoted from a Director position years before that as well. Needless to say, he had the highest turnover of anyone else in the area and 5th in the Company  followed closely by a few others that were mainly in college towns.

I'm not saying that this system is broken, but it would mean that people who are seeking to get those quest related items are rewarded. You already have a limit on qclass/races of only being able to play 1 at a time and many players usually don't keep the same character for long. For every Thulgan there's usually a good 30 or so other characters before even a semi decent one comes along to make such a large impact. You wouldn't be flooding the market by changing wait times for approval, you'd essentially open up more possibilities for other varying RP by doing so. Character RP can only be influenced so far, but the few characters that do stand out have a higher chance of influencing another player in terms of RP or even their current characters into a different mind set. If a character doesn't fit the RP, you can deny the app and let them play it out as they see it. Or you could reprimand them and stipulate varying degrees to hinder the character as punishment for not fitting that mold. Forcing a person to wait long periods of times though tends to make everything feel like you've wasted that time to go for it. I usually have about 50+ hours before I even apply for something, but I also have journals, history, and/or RP logs to back up my character so that it may help aid the decision. If they don't have at least the bare minimum, what is the point in making someone wait 2 weeks? In most cases at least 1 Imm is online at almost every given time. Unless they're breaking rules, or trying to purposely to find a work around to benefit themselves/their character, any mix of those 3 things should be more than enough to sway an opinion one way or the other. Perhaps that alone would help with retaining older players, and possibly reach out to invite new ones. I'd be interested to see what would happen if this was changed though. I'm all for having as many Qclass/races you want, but that stems from how I perceived things from my first Manager too. Sometimes you have to take that risk to reach out to see the returns of what may come. And at worse, everything goes back to the way it is now. That's just my opinion though.

[f0xx]

Holy.....

[Pali]

Nothing wrong with having a good history ready to go.  I'm long past the stage where I will make a character simply to have a character going, so the only time I make a char now is if I have an RP that I think I'll find fun, and once I've got that the history pretty much writes itself.

[Anume]

@Tantangel We've tried the variant of simply rejecting and telling them to reapply before, and some Imms are still trying that out from time to time. The result is usually a lot of bitching on prayer, sometimes going so far to be very abusive and insulting to the staff. Personally, I don't have the nerves to go that way. So I'm usually going a middle way if an applicant I will judge just sits around and does nothing and give them some mob / Imm / echo interaction to hopefully push them on the right way.

If that also does not help, I'll usually reject after watching some more.

[mya]

Ok I have a suggestion regarding applications.
But first some feedback.
Fireman, don't tell us who you play. The moment I saw your Avatar wannabe dwarf Zerk, it put a smile on my face. Someone was trying something new with a non powercombo. I was very happy, until I interacted with you. Your dwarf was rude and just stood there doing nothing most of the time. You were probably just bitter due to stuff, or whatever. Be nicer.

Ok my sugestion. Bump every Qthing to L50.

That simple. Why? Because due to the numbers, it's become very boring to be at L30. I have in past suggested to pass Avatars to L30 so that they get advantage of one of the bonus of Avatars, and to make company to Qdemons/Qvamp/Qundead. But looking to the Dwarf, I think it would be better to force them all to get to 50 and interact with us. Just give them +50 hp for each CON point increase and + 50 mana for each INT or WIS. So if my guy gets quested and gets +2 max CON , he would get +100 hp for free, and if he goes +1 INT/ +1 WIS he would get +100 mana.
It could be easily integrated as the bonus from completing the Quest race quest as in normal quests.

This way, players have a chance to actually be playing the game while their application develops. It benefits them, and it benefits us, because now we have others we can interact with. We all win. It also removes finding out about vamps while you are ranking with them.
It has the added benefit of if they fail their application, of them having something they probably got attached to, and keep them playing.

A minor thing is why do we have to leave cabals to apply? It makes no sense. It probably made 7 years ago. Not today.
It makes no sense to have a Lich or psi leaving Savant to be in limbo for 2 weeks, just to rejoin again. In case of Avatar it makes even less sense.
If you guys don't wish to have a L1 Savant, make them auto-expel at completing the Quest quest. But I don't even think that is necessary.
Anyone remorting to L1 is gonna power level to L42 in a couple of days. But again this is a minor thing.

Any mechanism that forces us to not play while playing, should be removed. 

[Unknown Criminal]

The thing about wait times is that it's a black hole... There is no time frame and no idea of what your applying for will even be approved. When most players apply for something they usually stop 'playing' because they are now 'waiting', this state of limbo creates boredom, frustration and anger. 

Cabals are either accepting or they aren't, undeads are either undeading or they aren't, avatar positions are available or they aren't. 

I like to use cleric to shaman as the ultimate example where you meet a requirement and you get what you want. You should be able to goto a specific qclass mob and apply, he can check your level, your pk record, your time spent and give you a quest. If you complete the quest he should charge you a few gold to complete the process and walla. Since quest classes are counted the mob can also just tell people there are no openings for x qclass/qrace and to come back another day.

All the sudden player frustration is gone because it's not a black hole anymore, IMMs will also have an easier time interacting with these players because they aren't doing a 5 minute log in log out, they will actually be playing their new character. These classes and races won't  lose their specialness because they are limited in numbers, world shifts check activity and when someone goes inactive with a Q something they get reverted to open the space.

IMO I think this would make the game more fun and less stressful.

UC

[Fool_Hardy]

I think we should evaluate the climate of our world, and ask ourselves if restrictions on q-stuff is as necessary as it once was.

I believe we limited the number of q-things a player can have to keep them from "holding" all the allocated spots.

I believe we limited the number of available spots for each q-thing based on the theory everyone will only play q-things if we did not.

This worked when we had avg 25 players logged in.

We would see a vampire, an undead, a demon, an avatar, and maybe a couple of crusaders on at the same time.

This promoted player skill, having mentors of the same q-race/class to guide you on your first such journey.

These days our avg number of players <10.

We set first time q-players up for failure by not having mentors to guide them.

For this reason I think we should look into RP edge/rewards that grant positive votes toward application approval.

Perhaps even to the point that one can get their application approved regardless of staff votes based on SOLID RP.

Just my 2 cents, and @myais on to something too.

[Mmm Coffee]

2 hours ago, mya said:

Ok I have a suggestion regarding applications.
But first some feedback.
Just give them +50 hp for each CON point increase and + 50 mana for each INT or WIS. So if my guy gets quested and gets +2 max CON , he would get +100 hp for free, and if he goes +1 INT/ +1 WIS he would get +100 mana.

I see where you're going with this but you can't just add a blanket +50 hp, or whatever per stat.  That's huge.  Leveling stat increases are random, so any additional HP/Mana would also need to be randomly generated.  Just because you have +1 CON point doesn't necessarily mean you will gain more HP on any given level than when you did not have that additional CON point.  Not to mention, currently you can only have a max of 35 levels (assuming qclassed at level 15) of additional stat boost.  It would almost have to work like the "advself" on Halloween Madness.

[Magick]

27 minutes ago, Mmm Beer said:

I see where you're going with this but you can't just add a blanket +50 hp, or whatever per stat.  That's huge.  Leveling stat increases are random, so any additional HP/Mana would also need to be randomly generated.  Just because you have +1 CON point doesn't necessarily mean you will gain more HP on any given level than when you did not have that additional CON point.  Not to mention, currently you can only have a max of 35 levels (assuming qclassed at level 15) of additional stat boost.  It would almost have to work like the "advself" on Halloween Madness.

Actually, +1 CON after 20 does give +1hp/level.  Doesn't matter what class you are, your RNG roll will be +3 for 20 CON, +4 for 21, etc.  So yes, it does mean you'll have more HP on not just any given level, but every level after the CON boost.  Even if it's a "temporary" one gained from equipment (to your racial maximum).  A cleric (7-10 per level) would then have 10-13 with 20 CON, 11-14 with 21, etc.  So in this aspect, she's right.

But yes, the flat +50 is too much compared to the current maximum of +35hp/CON from 15 to 50.

Still, in this fashion, it's not very hard to take into consideration.

The INT/WIS +mana is off, though, and class might play more a factor there's no class that gives +1 to a human's CON, but does give +1 to INT or WIS.  Looking at my notes, there is a potential base change, actually, but not in the direction she thinks for the majority of qthings.  With (an) exception(s), it might actually be more beneficial to the qthing to not take potential INT/WIS changes into account.

[Gaunticles]

I'm not good enough to play this game.

[Dale]

I'm coming back I just need a damn computer.

[Tantangel]

7 hours ago, Anume said:

@Tantangel We've tried the variant of simply rejecting and telling them to reapply before, and some Imms are still trying that out from time to time. The result is usually a lot of bitching on prayer, sometimes going so far to be very abusive and insulting to the staff. Personally, I don't have the nerves to go that way. So I'm usually going a middle way if an applicant I will judge just sits around and does nothing and give them some mob / Imm / echo interaction to hopefully push them on the right way.

If that also does not help, I'll usually reject after watching some more.

That's fair enough to me I think. In the future if I apply for anything, I am fine if I were denied in a faster fashion because it means I can do other things with the character if need be at that point. I've always preferred to hear back quickly than be denied two weeks later, especially when it was for a remort class. I don't get pissed off by being denied quickly, as you particularly tend to leave a note at the end for the reason why. Though the last time it confused me slightly, but you cleared it up in Prayer as well as from other helpful Imms too. I prefer not to attack, even if I still believe my thoughts are right and the others are wrong, there's just no point to forcing an opinion down a persons throat if they aren't open to accepting it. It also gets us nowhere and energies were wasted in areas that could have otherwise been better utilized. I am overly fond of interactions from Imms whether visible or not, so often times when I have thought myself alone and I was bored, an echo is often life saving for the character and spurs up much needed refreshment. Otherwise I can only go so far with RPing by myself when it comes to MOBs with very limited discussions that are pre-set.

[Lloth]

3 hours ago, Gaunticles said:

I'm not good enough to play this game.

Why do you say that? You don't need PK to be successful. You can always learn that side, anyway.

[Gaunticles]

I invested time and work into the game but I always get stomped in PVP. 

Maybe it's just not for me, some battles feel like I'm against who has the better scripts and triggers or maybe I'm facing an esport master. 

If I can't PVP then that means RP is what is left, and the RP is usually demonstrated by PVP which limits what I can do.

 

Example, if I'm a Dark Knight by definition I'm an Evil Bad Ass. If you lose the majority of your battles it's hard to get into the role of being an Evil Bad Ass.  

 

I have been a Herald, Merchant, a Lich, pinned classes that interest me.  I would like to be a Psionicist one day but I realized nothing will change, I'll have a great qclass to get rickrolled with.

None of this is anybody's fault, IMM's do a great job at maintaining the game, I don't fault the players for being better than me. As the game currently is it's too challenging for me, the learning curve is too high for me... 

It's a long list of things to master and not all of them are interesting or fun to learn.

Memorize the area maps.

Memorize the Gear.

Memorize the Consumables.

Know the theory of combat mechanics and what armor/weapon combination to use.

Know the vulnerabilities/weakness of class/race.

Farm consumables to constantly have every advantage because you assume your enemies will do as well.

Then you have the super secret stuff that the really good players know, quests, tattoos, who knows what???

 

It's essentially like korean star craft, you need to have certain # of apm to play. see link,

 

[Lloth]

I've had plenty of domineering RP characters. My most notable character never PK'd. 

 

Is there a handicap for not being good at PK when chasing certain RPs? Sure. If you have 30 deaths and 2 kills, nobody is going to feel that threatened. So an abrasive, fear-inspiring warlord probably isn't in the cards. Does that mean you can't command the same respect and cause that same level of fear in a different manner? Absolutely not.

 

A cold, calculating evil might express their power and status by how they treat their world. Often, we forget that there's an entire world outside the PCs. You might steal children in the night to murder them and harvest their blood and organs for some horrific ritual. Your name might be used to scare children into behaving, like many such evil legends in mythologies from all over the world. 

 

Or perhaps you manipulate the political climate. Dealing in information, you actually use your non-threatening physicality to your advantage. A few secrets here, a few notes there, and suddenly the world is your playground, and a few words from you can make or break entire dynasties.

 

Point is, there's a lot you can do without ever once killing a player character.

 

Now, with all of that said, you do bring up a valid concern, and that is how the player base treats these types of characters. More importantly, how they treat these types of players. I think we can all do a whole lot better at giving more respect to these characters. The common misconception is that such approaches are "easy" or only for those that can't PK. That's not only completely false, but incredibly arrogant and rude. Ultimately it leads to many examples of players like Gaunticles, who feel disheartened or that they are "bad" at the game. 

[Celerity]

It isn't really a matter of your physical speed, unless you are very, very slow. Every command has a lag, so the pace of entering commands is quite limited.

Paralysis will kill you of course, but I think it much more common that people OVER do things...spamming, needlessly looking at their affects, going to great (dangerous) lengths for certain pieces of EQ.

This is more a game of consistency. The ability to go through the same general fight hundreds or thousands of times (FL's fights typically have very little variance) and have the discipline to not commit mistakes while following through correctly when a situations arises (as opposed to start spamming, flustering the wrong commands, or suffering paralysis).

Death almost exclusively comes from mistakes. There is a knowledge portion to identify and understand what those mistakes are (both in yourself and your opponent) and how to deal with them. Usually, you experience this stuff once or twice and then you've learned it. There is also a physical component (whether through scripting, raw speed or otherwise) to execute things. But mostly, it is about keeping up your discipline over a long period of time.

If you are consistent, everything else falls into place. When you are losing, you survive more often. That means you will accumulate better gear for longer. When you are winning, you'll kill more often, which in turn helps with the EQ, cabal rank, and importantly reputation. Reputation will give you confidence and erode theirs, lessening your mistakes and increasing their own. It is all cumulative....until you mess up. You become inconsistent, you die, you lose your stuff, then you die again, and you continue to spiral into loss.

Obviously, very consistent players almost never have to deal with the spiral, because even if they are caught and killed occasionally, the rarity of those situations (the mistake or oddity that caused the loss) combined with the overall consistency of their game play means they get out of the spiral faster.

Is it something that can be learned? Maybe. It isn't like people who are good at PK sucked at PK and slowly became better. Usually, if you are going to become good at PK in this game, you do so pretty quickly.

Great knowledge (@mya @Magick) or exceptional physicality (esp. speed -- famously @H&R) can help compensate for a time, but the most important factor remains consistency (@f0xx is the best example I can think of, @Anume being very notable as well). 

Love him or hate him, but listen, observe and learn from @f0xx's PK game play.

Play smarter, not harder.

[aaa]

@Lloth No one likes being a punching bag forever and I feel like that's an area that could be worked on. There's not enough gap closing mechanics which leads to a steep learning curve. 

Honestly you'd have to be a sadist to be a new player here.