Trashy Behavior

[Celerity]

People are throwing the trash word around, but I don't think everyone really understand what trash is.

Trashy behavior:

• Abusing or exploiting a rule or mechanic for an unfair advantage
• Abusing or exploiting RP for an unfair advantage
• Using the game to attempt to piss somebody off OOC

Not trashy behavior:

• Using a competitive advantage
• Surprising your target
• Stealing
• Not being classy

Is it trashy to attack someone at low health from fighting mobs, training, ill-equipped, chatting, or otherwise unprepared or unready?

No, it is the responsibility of the player to decide their level of risk at any given time. It isn't the responsibility of the attacker to make sure of this for you. If you unghost near your cabal enemy and they kill you naked, that is on you, not them. If your protective shield drops while talking to someone and somebody rolls in and kills you, that isn't trashy. That was your fault for not being aware or otherwise misjudging the situation.

Is it trashy to loot a player's corpse?

Not at all. If you mob deathed in a place that you can't get back to. without friends to get your stuff, you just partook in high-risk behavior and you are paying the price if somebody beats you there. If somebody just simply got there faster, they gain from the opportunity. If you player deathed, you forfeit all your equipment by default. Classy players might give you back most of it, but it isn't trashy to NOT be classy.

Is it trashy to gang a person?

It depends. If you are doing to drive the player to delete/leave, then certainly. If you can beat them 1vs1, yes. Otherwise, nope.

Is it trashy to gang an unprepared person?

No more than if they were prepared.

Is it trashy to finish someone off at their pit?

No more than being ganging in any other situation. If you are in a situation where you might be ganged, assume you will be ganged. Don't hang around in areas if another dangerous opponent shows up. Don't recall bloody if there is any risk. A thief blackjacking you at your pit at low health is no different than if you had been caught at low health in any other area and were blackjacked after lagging yourself. You chose to go to that pit in that condition. You might be right that the thief or whoever did not earn the kill. You just gave it to them. If you think a thief is sitting there, let them sit forever, they just eliminated themselves from ganging you everywhere else.

Is it trashy to kill someone who lost their connection?

Yes, very. Doubly so if you loot them.

Is it trashy to fake losing your connection?

Yes, very.

Is it trashy to use triggers, macros, or other mechanical assistance?

No. Even a charge or chase trigger is not trashy. It is, however, a predictable tactic. It is up to each person to sacrifice flexibility for speed.

Is it trashy to multikill?

It depends. If it is a cabal enemy, you are typically required to multikill, but you can slide out of it if you are far superior to them. That would be classy, but again, it is not trashy to not be classy. For non-required opponents, it is trashy if you are far superior. If you are able to kill them multiple times in a short time, then you are probably pretty superior, so by default it becomes trashy.

Is it trashy to loot?

Only if you are far superior or doing it to cause them to quit.

Is it trashy to loot somebody I shouldn't because I need their eq?

Yes, that is an abuse of rules, RP or otherwise.

Is it trashy to make an RP that justifies trashy behavior or allows me to be selectively trashy?

Yes, very.

Is it trashy to not take risks and fight only under advantage?

Of course not. It is even in the rules: You should not do anything that results in your character's death willingly. It is in your, and your character's, best interest to make sure you minimize risk-taking. This includes not doing stupid, risky behavior like fighting losing battles.

Take this example: You are a ninja who is fighting a big lag-locking melee. That melee takes your cabal item, letting you study, and locks themselves in their cabal, waiting for you to retrieve. If you retrieve, you will be lag-locked and killed at the guardian. If they leave, they will be assassinated by you.

Is it trashy to wait for them to leave or should you try to retrieve? It is no more trashy to wait for them than it is for them to wait for you. There is no reason you should play into their hand and risk death, no more than they should walk outside and play into your hand. Neither character is trashy in this situation.

Is it trashy to quit out when faced with a far superior opponent?

In game evasion is the classy behavior. When in a forced fight situation against a far superior opponent (which is a sign of game imbalance, btw) who can force a kill on you, it is not trashy to leave the game. This situation shouldn't ever exist, and it exists much less due to lag changes. It becomes trashy when you quit out in the face of balanced to moderate disadvantaged situations. The rule of thumb is, quitting out is fine if you are facing assured death.

Is it trashy to use my skill/spell/ability to win/escape a fight?

No, of course not. It only becomes trashy when that ability is being exploited or not working as intended. For example, if I can bug my crusader gear to get super stats, and then use it, that is not only trashy, but illegal. Flee/study was trashy because it was an exploit and was thus corrected. Stacking protections as a sigil is not trashy. Using spy is not trashy.

Is it trashy to be upset after losing?

It only becomes trashy when it becomes OOC or otherwise abusive (targeted at the player, not character).

Is it trashy when they lose and classy when I win?

Yes. If you think this, there is a good chance you may be guilty of trashy behavior.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Celerity

[Trick]

Well written opinion of what you think is trashy and what isn't trashy.

Not everyone is going to agree with you.

 

The best way to avoid "trashy" behavior is not put yourself in a position to be called trash. Simple as that. Perfect example was mentioned in a Shoutout a while back. Kotrag found Cyprian hiding, asleep, and hurt from a previous PK encounter and DIDN'T collect the easy target because that would have been trashy behavior.

Had Kotrag killed Cyprian, you would not have called that behavior trashy. In my opinion, it is.

Personally, I don't want to risk tarnishing the reputation and name of my character by behaving in anything that could be assumed to be trashy. Most of the stuff @Celerity mentioned as trashy and even some of the stuff she said isn't trashy.

Protect the reputation of your character.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Fireman

[Magick]

18 minutes ago, Celerity said:

Is it trashy to loot somebody I shouldn't because I need their eq?

Yes, that is an abuse of rules, RP or otherwise.

This is the only bit I'm either in complete disagreement with or completely misunderstanding.

Looting someone you shouldn't?  Who shouldn't you loot?  There are people you can and can't loot?
Of course there is.

This isn't an abuse of rules.  There are rules in place to prevent this, but only to a degree.

Quote

HELP DEATH

LOOTING CORPSES
  There are following conditions for looting corpses in order to make the
game more enjoyable for every one:
 
1) Players cannot loot other's corpses until they have reached the rank of 10.
2) PC corpses under level 15 cannot be looted at all.
3) In first 2 hours after death, your corpse can be looted only by following:
        - Your group mates
        - People who are in your PK range. ("who pk")
        - Members of Thief guild.
 
Note that if you quit before retrieving your corpse, the corpse will no
longer recognize you and some of the above may not hold.

To further restrict this, moderates can only be looted (of rares and gold) by those that killed them.

Looting a body that you didn't kill is nothing more than stealing.  According to your opening definitions, this is not trash.

[Kyzarius]

I think she is referring to if you are good aligned, and a good aligned dies in front of you, you shouldn't loot them.  As an example. 

[Trick]

I think she is alluding to things like a goodie looting from another goodie/neutral.

@Kyzarius beat me to it.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Fireman

[Magick]

In that respect ... maybe.
Good vs Good corpse: I'd say yes.
Good vs apprehended Good: There's a grey area.  Least for me, it is.
Good vs Neutral corpse: Not really.

In all others, no.  I'm not seeing it.

[English lad]

Personally I think that is an IC call - not an OOC call.

Want to loot a fellow good? Go for it - but don't complain / rant / delete when you get IC consequences.

[Magick]

10 minutes ago, English lad said:

Personally I think that is an IC call - not an OOC call.

Want to loot a fellow good? Go for it - but don't complain / rant / delete when you get IC consequences.

For the same reason that you can kill goods as a good.  Sure, you'll be damned and possibly outcast by it.  But it's not really against the rules.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.

[Celerity]

Yes, of course it is all opinion! I'm just a player, I can't do anything but that. I assumed that was implied.

I don't know the particulars of Kotarg and Cyprian, but knowing that Kotarg is a big, powerful character, he would be trashy in involving himself in almost any gang attack.

It would be particularly trashy is Kotarg is significantly stronger than Cyprian.

It is never -classy- to gang though, even when at significant disadvantage.

-

Good vs good: Creating a good character to ambush and kill a good character is very trashy behavior (and illegal). For example, you are in Gear with a very famous good aligned character. You know you can trash him in this vulnerable position, redistribute that EQ, and take an align penalty on your (probably throwaway) character. You claim it is because your character's RP was always to ambush and betray the Light. Very trashy.

It would NOT be trashy if you had built up some actionable, visible RP working towards a descent to evil and chose that moment to make your transition. It wouldn't be an abuse of the good align because you had made clear your intention. It'd be hell to pull off, and if you did it well then it would be an IC, plot-moving action. Certainly dishonorable in game, but not this kind of OOC trash.

-

Want to loot a fellow good? Make it known (to immortal) you are not good then and the action you took. Anything else is trashy and illegal. Trying to skirt by without people finding out and otherwise maintain good standings with your align is trashy OOC behavior (and illegal). It isn't a situation of "trashy only when caught". Trying not to get caught being trashy is doubly trashy.

-

I also agree with @Fireman as I posted in the other thread: Being classy is a great way to not be trashy. The more renowned you are or want to be (IC or OOC for that matter), the more important this is. Reputation is very important in a close-knit, small population community like this. There is no gain in the game I could possibly want that would make me risk my reputation -- why take such a small time, temporary gain for a permanent stigma?

[Manual Labour]

Just because some people play by a personal code of honor it doesn't mean everyone will.

I stopped playing my last 2 characters because of trashy deaths to the same opponent. And the one before that because of a really trashy kill.

That former player not only drove me away, twice, they also used me leaving to further benefit their character in case I wasn't incensed enough.

That person is not worried about their reputation at all either because nobody forces you to reveal who you play so their reputation is perfectly safe.

And moreover when I confronted the Imms about the especially trashy kill (albeit I did not handle the death properly, I raged OOC instead) they assured me that the player of this character "would never do something like that".

I still cant get over the last 3 deaths on my last 3 characters, especially 2 of them which would have taken an ungodly amount of luck to happen without some kind of cheating. The last death might have been just lucky but because it was the same character that "got lucky" on my previous character I was too mad to continue.

But what can I do? I'm called paranoid and told my enemy just got lucky. Still leaves a terrible taste in my mouth whenever I think about it because in each of those deaths I did not make a mistake at all and yet each time I died to "bad luck". I just cant believe the lengths some people will go to for a kill, and we are talking LENGTHS.

edit: what I take away from all this is simply to not try and play anything powerful or of note because no matter how well I might be doing I am just 1 "unlucky" death away from losing it. So the moral for me is to just play combos I have no expectations with, have fun with some RP and not give a flying F when I die.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Manual Labour

[Zoichan]

@Manual Labour You are paranoid. I still love you though.

 

@Celerity Happy birthday!

[Unknown Criminal]

The problem with looting corpses is a princess behavior flaw where everyone is sooo used to not being looted that when it actually happens their world ends moreso than about the death that occurred.

Where this came from IMO is that fully decked or elite chars have ganked sooo many lesser chars and then left them a full corpse that it has become expected, (if you kill me you must be decked or elite, therefore I will get all my possessions back).

By expecting an empty corpse you get bonused with whatever you are left with and most time just the damn backback is worth more than all the rares combined. By sacking peoples equipment you place it back on the mob to respawn next shift or sooner, equipping is part of the game, not a punishment.

People should use their own judgement and cautions when looting corpses, taking someones backpack to be an asshole for no reason is a dick move BUT taking their backpack so you dont have to farm those consumables yourself would be expected. Just remember that looting and sacking takes your enemy (or you) out of PK mode, this leaves most people in cabals able to sit at their troops to provide leadership with less worry of interruption.

And finally being looted doesnt mean you or your opponent have malicious intentions as a community player, it may just mean that they dont want to engage in 100 battles because they either have lands to take, scrolls to write or wish to contribute in some friendly RP sessions unbothered.

Just always expect to be looted and you will never be disappointed

[Mali]

I think it is trashy to break RP after death. Oh you took my stuff. Oh my backpacks also? How dare you kill me. Etc. You're dead. Get used to it.

As for my part, I have ganged the best and in fact enjoy full looting the most out of all my years in FL. Still the one thing I look back on and grin about.

I guess it kind of feels like firing someone and then running off with his wife. You know it is wrong but hey, the getting is good. She was going to break his heart eventually.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Mali

[Zhurong]

Can I ever log on this forum without reading through tons of negativity, down talk and crying? Back in the day, majority of the IMMs cheated. They would poof their characters away and to you, slay you, eat your corpse, reset the game logs from days ago to prevent having a death on their record. You would die sometimes by yourself from the ENTIRE enemy cabal coming back to a corpse with absolutely NOTHING in it. Even against most of the top tier PKers in FL, you can survive, compete and even kill in cabal outfit and it is super EASY to gain quick equipment for hit/dam/ac/saves. Being looted can suck. Getting ganged can suck. Getting tagged can suck. We've ALL been there, but that is the concept of the game. Everyone who has cried of tagging/ganging has tagged/ganged themselves. Everyone is subject to the same things as this game can be very, very fast paced. There are tiers for a reason. There have been lots of things that have been done to accommodate to players. The problem here is that not everyone is going to see this the same way so not everyone will be pleased with the changes.

But, for petes sake, can we all act like adults here and stop crying like a bunch of teenage kids? I deal with this same stuff at work and at home (4 kids), I dont want to deal with it in the game that I play to seek refuge from real life.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Lloth
Language

[Celerity]

@Manual LabourI guess it is where you want to draw the line.

If your expectation is so high that one unlucky, or two or three or ten, deaths causes you to lose it, you might want to consider the solutions you brought up. A handful of deaths is inconsequential, even to the highest tier of characters. Especially if they are trashy or exploity deaths. They are quite rare and can be ignored.

If they happen a lot to you then either you are messing up (which is tough to admit) or they have cornered you in a particularly bad position combo-wise (you'll be vindicated a year later if they are nerfed or your combo is buffed). I'd probably reroll something else at that point or shift your character focus from personal prestige to pointing out scenarios for balancing for the staff. Every character I've rolled has included a purpose to test or prove at least one balance point. This gives you some nice outside motivation to continue even in loss.

The point is if you are expecting perfection, then yes, certainly lower your expectations -- you'll be a lot happier. If you aren't expecting perfection, some trashy/very unlucky death(s) doesn't matter a whole lot. If you didn't make a mistake (which I honestly doubt if you died), it isn't worth your stress. You just have ammunition to prove that some situation is imbalanced. Gather evidence and get it changed. Make your loss a win.

Going an extreme length is not trashy...it is competitive. Nothing wrong with that part, unless there was something exploity/illegal in there.

@ZoichanThank you! I wanted to spend it writing about what I believed to be trashy behavior on an internet forum. Sometimes birthday wishes do come true!

@Mali Breaking RP is pretty trashy, especially when it is clearly the OOC feelings coming through, not an IC reaction. Especially bad after a win/loss and insulting the other side. Even if it isn't OOC-motivated, people should be aware that it will typically be taken as such, is especially damaging and is only a good idea when you know the other side well enough to know they can handle it. Nothing like people complaining after dying or goading after winning. Both are pretty bad.

@Unknown Criminal FL isn't certainly princess culture. But yes, people have an expectation of class. I agree that is can really backfire because people overreact when that expectation isn't met. Honestly though, it is a good thing. Classy behavior also keeps a lot of people around and without that expectation, we'd have even fewer players.

The disconnect is that the culture, staff and rules don't always mesh and are sometimes contradictory. What is illegal by the rules, frowned upon by staff, or carry a stigma by the playerbase might not all be the same things. Because of that, you can be doing something right and wrong at the same time. This causes problems.

For example, the rules allow ganging and multikilling, but the staff and culture frown upon it. The rules require staying alive, but the staff and culture frown upon safe playing and reward risky behavior. The staff encourages longevity but the hardcore competitive culture discourages weakness or loss.The culture encourages creative tactics, the rules allow it, and the staff sometimes frowns upon it as abusive or unintended game play.

@Anume brought up pit sitting in another thread. Legal by rules, yet frowned upon by both staff and most of the playerbase (not me though!), so why do people do it? Because it is legal and it is an opportunity to win. I consider it a legitimate tactic, one that needs to be accounted for both by players. A sign of skill. To others, it is an exploit of a mechanic.

I don't understand why the staff frowns on it. If it is an exploit, it should be illegal. If it is not, it should not be frowned upon. So we have the situation of people doing it legally, engaging in so-called trashy behavior (thus pissing people off and others feeling vindicated through clever tactics) and all the negativity and issues that come with that. It could all be fixed with a rule clarification OR a removal of staff stigma, depending on which way the staff wishes to go.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Celerity

[Fool_Hardy]

Make everything rotdeath.

Get people used to requiping again.

Just the unreasonable voices in my head.

[Mmm Coffee]

Full looting is actually pretty hard to do since after you take a few pieces you get "<insert God> protects Jim's corpse from your greedy fingers"  At least that has been my experience.  I think after several hours it's a free for all but I'm not sticking around that long if many enemies are about.  Which segues into my personal take on trashy behavior...the OOC logon trashy behavior.  This is the behavior that I login and have one cabal enemy, maybe two.  But within a few mins I have every enemy i'm vendetta'd against logged in.  Or two very specific chars that are always logged in within mins of each other.  To me, that is a form of trashy.  If you can't play this game without flashing your banner on the forums (so your friends know you're logged in), or being on FB Chat, or whatever other social media you use, you're contributing to a problem.

[Magick]

7 minutes ago, Mmm Beer said:

"<insert God> protects Jim's corpse from your greedy fingers" 

That sounds like you're looting a smurf.

Could be wrong.

[Fool_Hardy]

Very good stuff @Celerity.

I did not see it was your birthday until I got to work, I know its late but Happy Birthday.

Hope your whole year is the best one yet.