Battlemages, not a suggestion.

[Fool_Hardy]

As I am not a player of battle mages, I do not think I am the right person to introduce a suggested change to this class.

That said, other players struggle with this class, and I am left with only questions every time I roll one up.

I have read through all the help files, and found redundancy in their skill set. Evidently a battle mage MUST blind his opponent to be successful.

I say this because he is given three spells that can blind his opponent. Which frankly is what inspired this thread.

What if we broke down the battle mages an path them out utilizing these three separate blinding techniques in each of the paths?

I would like to see one path learn ranged weapons, Arcane Archers.

I would like to see another path that learns special sword techniques, Spell Swords.

I would like to see the final path utilize special runes to increase their spell level, Rune Casters.

Now not being adept at the battle mage class, I can not begin to move this from a discussion to a suggestion. (kind of praying one of you picks up the ball and runs)

But I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the concept.

 

[Unknown Criminal]

I like battlemages a lot but there isn't much they can do with all mundane damage, giants are resist and mages have enough -ac to make you look like a complete chump. Their disarm spell is as useless at 50(everyone wears cursed), rust is capped where by the time you cast it 4 times your already screwed(it should work like deteriorate), they suffer the parry gimpage and can't block magical weapons (which everyone uses). A lot of their basic attacks and sparpmetal come off as piercing(that's self explanatory), their upkeep on spells is also ridicules for what they get in return. 

Everyone and their dog has access to armor, shield, stone skin, flesh armor, protection and more which further pushes their damage output into the pooper. 

They are great vs mobs though.

Ive gone on before  

[Dale]

I never felt like they lived up to their name.  

 

They will always just be illusionists.

[Tantangel]

Perhaps @Chesta6384could have some input on this as he used to do extremely well with them?

I have always enjoyed the spells they have getting up to level 50, but once you're there, about the only thing you can really hope for is if you apply for Psi that you get it. BMG is more defensive than most mages, but at the same time you're doing mainly physical damage  that UC pointed out was pretty much moot unless you nail someone who just hit 50 and didn't buff up their armor and weapons yet. It's almost better to just go into Herald or Merchant since any other Cabal would mean you're going to be at a disadvantage at some point. Dispel magic will work on mainly Giants, but even then you're probably going to nail a single spell. More if you're lucky. Sharpmetal is great for killing MOBs, but increased cost due to increased opponents along with upkeep of other spells means you'll run out quickly if you're not paying attention. They don't have second attack, which means haste will give them that from time to time, but unless you're able to pound them like a porn star, you probably aren't going to do much to them. I honestly didn't see any boost to other attacks as Blades is a staple two attacks a round and dancing blades may see a slight increase, though I haven't paid close attention to that as I had merely been toying with the class at that point. Meteor storm is interesting, but Death's Head will kill you instantly despite Force Field. I literally mastered the spell once, and the very first time I cast it while not indoors, Deaths Head comes rocking down and got me. It was actually pretty funny for me, but I never really used it again after that.

If we go by your suggestions it would make it interesting.

Quote

@Fool_Hardy

I would like to see one path learn ranged weapons, Arcane Archers.

I would like to see another path that learns special sword techniques, Spell Swords.

I would like to see the final path utilize special runes to increase their spell level, Rune Casters.

Arcane Archer I think may be a little strong, depending on how it's done. Perhaps instead of using it as archery that we can use it a little more like autothrow does it, or even backcutter? A character flees and a single spell of a randomly cast spell nails the character. It would exclude anything that requires to be outdoors and any area affects, so perhaps they can learn a spell no others could that would be magical based or physical based on mastery of the spells it will cast.

Sharpmetal could essentially have elements added to them giving them a slight edge magically over the rest.

Rust is stronger and the affects last longer, but it's also harder to land.

Spell Swords could have a weaker rust, but it lands regardless of saves and AC.

Dancing blades will be given new attack formations, and rather than trip, may bash in some cases. This form of lag though would be less than that of actual bash (1 round vs 2 rounds), and would depend on the size of the character themselves. It ensures they never leave home without it. It would also rely heavily upon the weight more when this is the case. If the object is >30lbs then it bashes, and <30lbs would cause it to trip. Much like the bashing aspect of it, being enlarged is beneficial, but for tripping purposes it has more advantage if you yourself were to remain he same size. Maybe even allow shrink to be used on yourself to give you that advantage, but Force Field wont protect you from the lag anymore, just from the damage itself.

Gives this path second attack and third attack, but you lose the spell Blades because of this.

Elemental spells you can cast on your weapons so you can hit vulns as well. With Human having a 20 STR they'll have the ability to have more hit/dam, but they wouldn't be a complete powerhouse with a change in Force Field and Dancing Blades. With 18 STR I think the best I had without getting high end armor, I got somewhere around 30hit/dam and that's with no spells added. I still hit like a bitch though.

Rune Casters could be interesting as well.

Rust would act like it is already.

+Spell level would add a slight increase cost to spells (meaning going Savant may be more beneficial), and when it wears off, causes a drained affect. For people who are already thinking that gives an edge to Good and Neutral classes, I would go as far as adding a new affect entirely so that it's not cured by certain items. It gives balance all around for each alignment in this regards and leaves them still as vulnerable as they can be now.

Sharpmetal will be a constant mana cost regardless of the amount of enemies you're facing. It also can cause a bleed affect only if the +spell level is active.

Sear has a small chance of blinding for +12 hours instead of the 9 or so it does already. Higher chance of blinding regardless of time as long as the Sun is visible. Vampires usually don't fight during the day anyways, and they can't be found unless they want to anyways.

Colour Spray would cause more damage, but less likely to actually blind.

Slow no longer would give -DEX, but still the benefits of the spell as it is now. While under the affects of the +spell level Slow would give greater benefits than usual, but cannot be used on others.

Haste would give +hit/dam as well as the +DEX, only when +spell level spell is used and while under that affect, haste cannot be cast on any others.

 

Albeit my knowledge of the class is extremely limited, it does seem a bit lacking anymore. I'm sure a few people could make it work really well, but with so many tweaks to other classes made and implementation of new ones, their time in the limelight seems to be coming to an end. I would probably go as far as to say that maybe 3 people can pull off any decent BMG without being a complete waste, but they're boring to play overall compared to the other classes you can be.

[Fool_Hardy]

When I considered the arcane archers, I was thinking an end game spell that applies various affects to the bow shots. I.e. flame strike, chill touch, ect.

Considered spell swords might actually get a spell that while active allows them two handed.

Just some ideas. I believe that the people in the know like @Chesta6384will have far better concepts as to how to make it interesting and enjoyable.

I know that I never liked playing necromancers before the change, now I freaking love them. I think we could do the same for battle mages.

Maybe take the rune casters back toward the illusionists they once were. 

[Chesta6384]

I can play a bmage and be very very hard to kill.  That said, with the way things are these days, it is extremely difficult to kill.  

UC hit the nail on the head,. Bmages are geared towards mundane.  They block mundane damage great and dish out mundane.  That said, everyone has uber AC and nobody ever used mundane weapons that are uncursed Vs a bmage these days.   

The only thing they are useful for are being vessels to psi.  They need a major overhaul to become competitive.  Something to make them a little more explosive.

[Chesta6384]

As for ideas, I suggest making localized gravity disarm cursed weapons/shields at a chance.   Make control blades to where it can be made mundane or magical. C 'control blades' magical.    Make rust a one time cast similar to deteriorate.  These three things alone would give them at least a fighting chance.

[mya]

Localized disarm isn't useless. It's the best disarm outside of cursed disarm. 1 round lag, disarms main hand or off-hand AND staves/wands/treasures. The only class that can disarm off-hands are warriors, and with the changes to Weapon seize not working for off hand because it was to much a hassle for melees, few use off cursed weapons. That said, a smart opponent will not dual wield vs a battlemage.

Second attack is replaced by haste. A hasted battlemage will always have two attacks, which is more than a DK, unless he chooses to dual wield. What sets them back is the lack of enhanced damage. Like meele druids, they have the potential to dress in hit/dam roll for full offense. We just don't.

BMG's don't need fired weapons. They already have a auto-hit damage thing called reflective shield. And fired weapons is a meele tool unfit for a mage concept.

BMG's don't need paths in my view. They need an update to allow them to leverage their existing class tools, WHICH ARE MANY. These tools are mainly spells which have been devalued with the inflated meele and saves output. That is why I say they need magic missile. DK's have it, because they aren't pure fighters. They are a lot like DK's.

Another of BMG's glaring weakness is terra shield disappearing over water. This should not happen, and 100+% terra shield should mutate to a water shield on water.  No other class has this problem. BMG's are a complicated management class due to the unkeep and needed number of spells.  Their power-level in no way correlates with how complicated the class is to play.

I don't think BMG are mundane focused. Their only mundane focus is blades, because they deal  physical damage. Sear, colour-spray, Reflective field, and dancing blade are all (or can be) magic damage. And physical damage is only a problem when facing giants/ogres.

A DK is everything a BMG is but a lot more powerful, and with access to saves debuf through magic missile + curse. And a lot more easy to play.

A DK when faced with superior melee opponent with saves can erode his saves using magic missile + curse, to apply his debuffs. A BMG can't. By eroding saves, the BMG can now have his tools work. Plum manunbus? which auto-slows in combat if bypasses saves. Slow, which slows. Shrink for extra penalties. Faerie fire for more AC drop (works well in combination with rust).  And land blindness.

Additional interesting suggestions would be:

- blades give a bleeding effect. To prevent slow from aiding more than harming the enemy. Or just flat out shaman draining spell.

- the dancing blade proc the special stuff on the weapon like flameblind, or wrath or ice or paralizing.

- granting power word stun. Good for a mage that can deal meele damage.

But the most important in my view is Magic-missile, maintaining terra-shield on water and perhaps curse. As these would allow them to unleash the arsenal that they have a their disposition.

 

[Tantangel]

BMG gets two attacks WITH haste, but that is from their weapon or hands. I never saw an increase to Blades attacking three times instead of two, it was just always two attacks. Your melee damage output is minimal from your own weapon usually unless it has procs that fire off from time to time that help add to it. Adding in a dancing blade adds an additional 2? I'm not 100% on that one though. Even so, that means a BMG has the exact same output of attacks as a BMG if that's the case as they get third attack. Dual wield would mean they both get 6 before the DK is hasted, and then give them a charmie to boot means that BMG is pretty much not worth playing to me. I've been contemplating a DK for quite a while without the intent of going Vampire. Aside from Madness, I think I've only gotten to level 45 before and gave up. I love that extort skill though. It's absolutely amazing. DK would also be able to capitalize on hit/dam a lot easier than any BMG, so giving a BMG second attack wouldn't swing the fight their way at all, just give a slight upper hand they didn't have prior.

I honestly love how many of the classes have alternate skills/spells that make them more replayable. It may not be needed, but it does prolong the life of the class. Look at Berserkers. I don't think anyone would play them at all if they didn't have separate paths they could select. Warriors have such a variety to them that you can play varying different combinations many times over to see what works best. I've been curious about Halfling Feign Warrior now with the Halfling changes recently, and although small still and prone to being bashed, fully spelled up and set to go I think they'd probably beat some ass.

Their disarm is nice, but only if your opponent isn't wearing a cursed weapon and/or shield. Which pretty much every decked character has one that is already difficult enough. Dressing up as pure melee means your HP is extremely low, and in some cases your AC is awful even with spells. Rangers and Invokers can rip right through you if you're completely spelled up because -300 or better just wrecks you. If you don't have a high AC value, all others rip right through you too.

Honestly though in 16 years that I've played here off and on, the game has become incredibly different than it used to be. Usually in the sense of making things easier for the players more and more which new problems arise from. The few changes I've seen for BMGs were usually nerfs though, and typically because @Chesta6384 would wreck someone quickly and if you were to watch the instant replay of it, it'd be like watching a 34 year old identifying as a 10 year old showing off his highlight reel of random beatings of other actual 10 year olds. I think adding a fresh set of changes to them, whether selectable or not, would do the class a great deal of good. I do like your three suggestions you make at the end though @mya.

[aaa]

21 minutes ago, Tantangel said:

I've been curious about Halfling

Do yourself a favour and don't.

[f0xx]

It's always obvious when someone has deep understanding of a class. Like in this case @mya.

She draws many parallels with DKNs, but she's wrong here, because there's one very significant difference between DKNs and BMGs, that being DKNs can't make themselves unlaggable. By making yourself unlaggable you generally make yourself invincible. BMGs are nothing like DKNs, neither RP, nor PK wise.

That being said, she wants them to get magic missile, because they are like DKNs (which they are not). Instead of granting them magic missile, which is more suited for a maledictive oriented class, why not re-work rust? Magic missile used to be a useless spell too. Its rework made it good. Same can be applied to rust. Here is just a shot in the dark:

Example: You can use rust to nulify the stats of one of your opponent's wares. Say you fight Iukkut. You see him having the shadow of velphane, an item that gives a ton of saves. You type c rust shadow and the stats given by the shadow are now nullified. Give the spell a timer of 0-1 ticks for the battlemage, and 3 ticks for the target, which are refreshed when a new rust lands. This means you can basically strip your opponent and prepare him for a strong finisher. This way the spell becomes much stronger than magic missile and it's kinda anti-powecreep, since the stronger the items of your opponent, the stronger the effects you will get (this can be tweaked if it proves too OP - say it will not completely nulify the stats of the item, but will make them 50% less effective).

Mya has some great suggestions. Bleed effect is a must. Otherwise slow is a joke. I laugh every time a battlemage slows me.

Dancing blade procs the original weapon.

Make haste castable on your opponent again, just like slow. 

Powerword stun is a bit too much IMO.

Make terra shield turn into elemental shield when above 100%. Perhaps even make it so it hits back your opponent, with the element you are standing on. You fight a dwarf on water, he gets hit every turn by a water shield or something like that. You fight a feral in the volcano, he gets hit every turn by fire shield (that on top of the extra defence you get from it). Perhaps it's too strong? Shrug.

Change reflective field to work against magical damage instead on mundane. This way the enemy has to choose to wield magical weapon and deal greater damage and take greater damage at the same time, or use a mundane weapon, deal lower damage but take lower damage as well. If it's a warrior who's wielding a magical weapon, then the BMG has to make the choice whether to risk being exposed to lag and use reflective shield, or play safe and use protective shield.

Second attack? Even invokers have second attack. The notion that they have to haste themselves to gain second attack is a bit silly.

There are many ways to improve BMGs. The point is to improve them in a way that makes them preserve the spirit of the class, and not just give them spells that other classes have. That's lazy.

[aaa]

The only thing I dislike about battlemages is that their defense spells (blur, terra shield) seem like they barely work.

I think giving them more damage isn't the way to go, let's stick with them being the defensive mage archetype. I'd love to see their defenses just made better.

[Magick]

3 hours ago, f0xx said:

Example: You can use rust to nulify the stats of one of your opponent's wares. Say you fight Iukkut. You see him having the shadow of velphane, an item that gives a ton of saves. You type c rust shadow and the stats given by the shadow are now nullified. Give the spell a timer of 0-1 ticks for the battlemage, and 3 ticks for the target, which are refreshed when a new rust lands. This means you can basically strip your opponent and prepare him for a strong finisher. This way the spell becomes much stronger than magic missile and it's kinda anti-powecreep, since the stronger the items of your opponent, the stronger the effects you will get (this can be tweaked if it proves too OP - say it will not completely nulify the stats of the item, but will make them 50% less effective).

I like this.  Actually gave me an "Oh, wow.  That's awesome." moment.  Probably the best rust change suggestion I've seen that doesn't make it into deteriorate.  In effect, it turns rust into a targeted, limited hellstream that doesn't care if it's burnproof.
Increased chance for landing on more stationary targets like head, torso and shields.  Lower chance on arms, legs and so on.

Refreshed when a new rust lands.  I see several options that this could work:
Opponent has helm, torso and light rusted.  Applied 3 hour ticks, 1 hour cooldown as exampled.
Option 1: helm (3h), torso (2h), light (1h) - next tick - cast on light again - helm (2h), torso (1h), light (3h)
Option 2: helm (3h), torso (2h), light (1h) - next tick - cast on light again - helm (2h), torso (1h), light (4h)
Option 3: helm (3h), torso (2h), light (1h) - next tick - cast on boots - helm (3h), torso (3h), light (3h), boots (3h)
Option 3a: helm (3h), torso (2h), light (1h) - next tick - cast on light again - helm (3h), torso (3h), light (6h)

It would make the bmg more shaman-like in this aspect, but I'm fine with that.

And speaking of rusted light.  Turns it off.  Actually give infravision a purpose.  It's been a niggle that once you get an infinite light, time of day becomes largely irrelevant save for shops and a few classes.  One being the BMG.  But that's a different discussion entirely.

[Pali]

Really like a lot of Foxx's suggestions there, especially for rust, though implementing them all would probably take things too far.  Also like Mya's bleed effect from blades suggestion.

 

I still think it would help for their spells to be consolidated a bit so they don't have to constantly juggle so many affects, or make a lot of their spells essentially be toggled on and off at will with a hefty initial casting cost and upkeep to balance the added control.  The biggest headache of playing one by far is keeping track of your affects list.

[mya]

17 hours ago, f0xx said:

Example: You can use rust to nulify the stats of one of your opponent's wares. Say you fight Iukkut. You see him having the shadow of velphane, an item that gives a ton of saves. You type c rust shadow and the stats given by the shadow are now nullified. Give the spell a timer of 0-1 ticks for the battlemage, and 3 ticks for the target, which are refreshed when a new rust lands. This means you can basically strip your opponent and prepare him for a strong finisher. This way the spell becomes much stronger than magic missile and it's kinda anti-powecreep, since the stronger the items of your opponent, the stronger the effects you will get (this can be tweaked if it proves too OP - say it will not completely nulify the stats of the item, but will make them 50% less effective).

Just that you know, last I played Rust debuffed for lik3 -8-9 hit/dam and +70 AC, after you landed it several times. It took about five casts (5 rounds) I think. I used it against your Demon DK Nexus while I was a Knight. I still have no idea why you would use that starslab shield insted of a polearm. I don't think I ever came close to endangering you, but it was fun blocking you from taking the standard.
Rust is a great spell that synergies well with their play style, I would hate for BMG to lose it. That is why I sugested magic missile, it gives an extra magic damage source and errodes saves. BMG are a very well though out class with a unique toolset. Lets please expand, not replace it.

 

17 hours ago, Wade said:

I think giving them more damage isn't the way to go, let's stick with them being the defensive mage archetype. I'd love to see their defenses just made better.

The problem with being defensive, is that it only allows you to delay the time until you get killed.

 

13 hours ago, Pali said:

The biggest headache of playing one by far is keeping track of your affects list.

It's true, but I can take it. I like that we have classes that require more skill to play, like shamans. The problem is when you aren't rewarded with power from that extra player skill requirement.

 

BMG aren't a class particulary known for their burst or lagging abilities. They have room to grow. And their only reason to play is because they have area meele attacks, coupled with area blindness. This joined with Slow, makes them particulary good at PvE. But rangers are also good at PvE and their skills a lot better at PvP.

[f0xx]

3 hours ago, mya said:

I still have no idea why you would use that starslab shield insted of a polearm.

That's the whole point of me being a better DK player than you - to approach PK in a way that's inconceivable to you.

 

3 hours ago, mya said:

Just that you know, last I played Rust debuffed for lik3 -8-9 hit/dam and +70 AC, after you landed it several times. It took about five casts (5 rounds) I think. 

Rust does -1 hit/dam and -10 AC per cast. To achieve the values you speak of, you would have to cast it at least 7 times.

 

3 hours ago, mya said:

Rust is a great spell that synergies well with their play style, I would hate for BMG to lose it.

My suggestion doesn't take away rust, does it? It improves it.

[mya]

11 hours ago, f0xx said:

Rust does -1 hit/dam and -10 AC per cast. To achieve the values you speak of, you would have to cast it at least 7 times.

It's not -1 per cast. It's more, but you can miss, which if I recall correctly, might translate into something near 7 rounds for the full effect, probably just 6 or 5. 4 rounds is the best outcome.
 

> prof self rust
Your proficiency at rust is 100%.
Progress: [===|===|===|===]

> cast rust
look pilgrim
The Arc Pilgrim's possessions redden with rust.
The Arc Pilgrim has a few scratches.

You sense following auras:
Spell: rust           : modifies ac by 18 for 2 hours
                      : modifies damroll by -3 for 2 hours
                      : modifies hitroll by -3 for 2 hours
Spell: sanctuary      : permanently
The Arc Pilgrim has a few scratches.

> cast rust
look pilgrim
The Arc Pilgrim's weapons and armor thicken with rust.
The Arc Pilgrim has a few scratches.

You sense following auras:
Spell: rust           : modifies hitroll by -5 for 5 hours
                      : modifies damroll by -5 for 5 hours
                      : modifies ac by 36 for 5 hours
Spell: sanctuary      : permanently
The Arc Pilgrim has a few scratches.

> cast rust
look pilgrim
The Arc Pilgrim's weapons and armor thicken with rust.
The Arc Pilgrim has a few scratches.

You sense following auras:
Spell: rust           : modifies ac by 54 for 8 hours
                      : modifies damroll by -7 for 8 hours
                      : modifies hitroll by -7 for 8 hours
Spell: sanctuary      : permanently
The Arc Pilgrim has a few scratches.


> cast rust
look pilgrim
The Arc Pilgrim's weapons and armor thicken with rust.
The Arc Pilgrim has a few scratches.

You sense following auras:
Spell: rust           : modifies hitroll by -9 for 11 hours
                      : modifies damroll by -9 for 11 hours
                      : modifies ac by 72 for 11 hours
Spell: sanctuary      : permanently

> cast rust
look pilgrim
The Arc Pilgrim's items are as rusty as they are going to get.
The Arc Pilgrim has a few scratches.

Spell: rust           : modifies hitroll by -9 for 11 hours
                      : modifies damroll by -9 for 11 hours
                      : modifies ac by 72 for 11 hours
Spell: sanctuary      : permanently
The Arc Pilgrim has a few scratches.

Strangely I casted a few meteor swarm ~10 and it looked gimped. Probably just to low of a sample, but I hope it hasn't been nerfed. It was already eratic enough for people to say they never used it in PK and act accordingly, that to nerf would remove any use for a spell that only shined when all the stars aligned. Sure it beated Hellstrem in the best case scenario, but it average damage was inferior to Sear. It only shined as a surprise finisher when it aligned (if it did, and rolled a high number of meteors on oponent).

[Unknown Criminal]

@mya when i was testing my bmage i looked for 1 thing 'after' casting rust to full, did my damage increase and did my opponents damage decrease, the answer to both was no.

-70 ac looks good on paper, but when people can have over -800 ac (not the norm i know) it doesnt do anything. Also, with everyone having access to armor, shield, stone skin, flesh armor, protection and sanc PLUS cabal buffs do you think its worth 4 'in combat' casts?  Rust needs to be like deteriorate AND be viable after full casts OR maybe just be able to neutralize armor buffs.

-9 hit and -9 dam is what against the average melee player? Even i walk around with over 50 / 50 Hit Dam, does anyone think a bmage is gonna get hit less because that went down to 41 / 41?

[Zhurong]

Rust can get to an unlimited amount of +ac. It has a cap to be cast, then be be added on to again before it wears off, also adding to its length. Keep on their tail and you can get to crazy amounts. Now, what is actually a problem is being able to buy mass amounts of gyvel herbs/potions from Merchants negating the affect of blindness by ANY class that gains the affect.

[mya]

There are ways so that you can no longer get the gyvels with ease from your backpack to replenish them, but to do that you need to land spells.

AC has a great impact on meele damage, such as blades and dancing blade. 70 might not look like much, but you can pump +50 from Faerie fire. Now it's 130. Unlimited AC drop from rust isn't worth the trouble in my opinion, only as a consequence of trying to maintain rust.

130 AC drop might not look like much, but if you are fighting someone having 800 AC, it could mean a meele output increase from 10% to 20%. Even against someone with 300 AC, droping it to 200 should give you a +5% to meele damage. It's not much, but considering that you are droping also his offense it adds up to BMG attrition. Remenber, we deal about 50 in meele, taking 9 hitroll from that, is decreasing it by more than 10%. The 9 damarol matters, unless it's some 100 damrol zerk

Also blind isn't the end all, because once you land and he doesn't has a cure he will not fight you 7 hours. He will run, and you can't lag him. That is why Flameblind is so nice. 2 tics, so if they run it's never far and most just power through it.

 

@f0xx idea of having a spell that targets a body location and negates that equipment location bonus is growing in me.
It's actualy a pretty neat idea that rewards player skill. Looking at oponent and quickly identifying the optimum body locations to negate. Such  a tool should have a way to deal with saves like magic missile, because what is the point of having a saves debuf that can't land because saves are to high. I sugest making it a skill, and the effect have a long duration, or at least comulative. Each use increasing by the double of hours of magic missile (skills take 2 rounds, spells 1) up until the same lenght.

A basic quick approach would be having rust decrease saves also. -9/-9 hit/dam and +9 spell save

[aaa]

You're gonna get blitzed long before you get any decent stacks of rust up. Fact. 

[f0xx]

2 hours ago, Wade said:

You're gonna get blitzed long before you get any decent stacks of rust up. Fact. 

Is it?

[aaa]

I guess that is dependant on your definition of blitzed. 

[Magick]

8 hours ago, mya said:

@f0xx idea of having a spell that targets a body location and negates that equipment location bonus is growing in me.
It's actualy a pretty neat idea that rewards player skill. Looking at oponent and quickly identifying the optimum body locations to negate. Such  a tool should have a way to deal with saves like magic missile, because what is the point of having a saves debuf that can't land because saves are to high. I sugest making it a skill, and the effect have a long duration, or at least comulative. Each use increasing by the double of hours of magic missile (skills take 2 rounds, spells 1) up until the same lenght.

A basic quick approach would be having rust decrease saves also. -9/-9 hit/dam and +9 spell save

But Foxx's suggestion does exactly that, too.  He even exampled it with the Shadow of Velphine.
Rust the Titanium Fullplate: that's +54 AC, +1 STR (never said removing armor couldn't have drawbacks), +3/+3 hit/dam.
The Ice Armor would be ~+75 AC, +15 SVAff.
Rust the Boots of Spell Absorption: Minimal +AC (except magic), but that's +5 SVS, +4 SVMal, +3 SVMental and no more skill bonus/item use.  (Though this is non-metal and could/would/should be immune)
Dark Moonstone Pendants: +15 AC and +10 SVAff per each.
Worn leather sleeves?  Djinni bands?  RP necklaces?

In 3 rounds and targeting their Ice Armor, Moonstone Pendant and Ring of accuracy, you'll debuff them:
+100 AC, +25 SvAff, +4 hitroll, +1 damroll and some extra.
Those three might not make rust land easier as it's maledictive, but it'll certainly help with sear.  And sharpmetal?  It's an afflictive spell that does mundane damage.  Whatever.
Take that, +54 AC, +7/+7 hit/dam!

Of course, this would have impacts on armor sockets, too.  Heartgears and demon tongues and muddy baubles.  Items with skill boosts, procs and other enhancements.  No more poison from the poison barbed gauntlets.  No poison removal from the slimy breastplate.  No prot_evil from the hair (though this is nonmetal).  No spells from spellforged items.

Targeting finger and neck slots could be made to be harder to land if we wanted, of course.

And if we really wanted, add something like +10 AC, +1/+1 hit/dam per cast.  Though given full nullifications of armor, this might be a bit much.
Unless of course, we also have a basic, default cast like how it is now.
cast 'rust' torso
cast 'rust' head
cast 'rust' PC

 

[Fool_Hardy]

Well it appears @Wadefound value in @f0xx's experience. Um Bonus!!

Very nice input everyone. @f0xx changing rust, and adding wprogs to the dancing blades both seem to be popular concepts.

Personally, my most frustrating factor when I peruse the skills and spells of the class is the thought that I can achieve nearly the same AC and have more defenses with an alternate choice.

The spell set of this class appears to be designed to offer the best AC for a mage. Yet, I played identical invokers and Battle Mages, and the AC achievable was almost exactly the same.

I believe that what battle mages need if they truly are supposed to be the most defensive is a better understanding of the magic they use. That is to say better than other classes using the same magic. Set battle mage defensive spells to +25% effectiveness with battle mage bonuses to timers. Armor -25 AC, Shield -25 AC, Stone Skin -50 AC.