PK Flag Types and Wait Times

[Unknown Criminal]

So I've been having a few conversations with people regarding PK types (smurf, regular, hardcore) and why their qclass, clan tasks and cabal ranks are the same when each type is to be played differently.

For example Hardcore players are expected to live hard and die fast, YET, they are subject to the same character growth and wait times as those whom are created to live forever. Why is that? Doesn't this increase the lifespan of a hardcore player who just wants to run and gun but gets stuck playing it safe waiting for a remort, q-something or cabal promo?

Yes hardcore characters train faster but isn't that kind of a negative when they are forced to stick around and wait for things? Hell, with all the waiting and lack of people online training gives people something to do which means hardcore players lose out on their characters skill growth process. 

So id like to see some input from the players on the subject, should hardcore characters advance faster through everything since they are expected to run and gun OR are they meant to live hard and die fast by not setting their eyes on prizes such as q-something's or promotions. 

Me personally I only play hardcore chars BUT I'm always babying them because I'm waiting on something. 

[Magick]

Until recently (how recently, I don't know), smurfs weren't allowed rank higher than T except in Merchant, when you could get to E.
Until recently, hardcore wasn't around.

Training faster is a negative when waiting for something, yes.  But by that logic, it gives you more time to RP to get your something.  There's a strange balance there.

As for hardcore advancement, no, they shouldn't advance faster.  The "live fast and die hard" mentality you're assuming isn't.  Just because I have 20 lives instead of 61 doesn't mean I'll use them as fast as someone with 61.  Nor does it mean I'm going to "run and gun" as you put it.  The fact that I'm rarely going to take mob deaths and my knowledge of the areas and my ability to run through them means I'll take fewer still.  And with 20 lives to lose, means I might actually bring a character to condeath for the first time in over 15 years.

So Average Joe should use his 61 by the time I take those 20.  Or there abouts.

 

There's probably more points to make here, but I honestly don't care to add more than I have.

[Tantangel]

I kind of think it would at least lessen the wait hours for Cabals at least even if it were only by 10% at a cost to removing 66% of a regular characters amount of lives. Now it can be argued that you pick it so that shouldn't account for a decrease in hours played to get the next Cabal rank and I slightly agree with that, but at the same notion, you could potentially hit Veteran, never hit Trusted because your Cabal has a ton of people in it (or none at all sometimes), and ultimately die before you have a chance to make it. I'm not saying you don't have the same chance as a lesser played character in the sense of the varying flags, but your chances are definitely higher because of it. I'm not saying to make it a factor specifically from V to T, but earlier ranks would be nice in some cases.

The perks they gain otherwise are usually pretty nice though, so I'm not complaining about any of the tiers. I haven't ever played a Moderate character, they're still pretty new to me, but I have played several hardcore since it was implemented. I don't think they have the live fast and hard mentality by any means though. You can play a character that is extremely lively and can survive many altercations as a Hardcore, and choose to be a very fast and loose canon as a Moderate. It's more of just how you wish to play as your character though in those situations. I'm not completely against the idea of them gaining that edge as it really doesn't affect anyone else, and shaving an hour off of your possible wait times to be promoted means  nothing. in most cases. After that point it's much more difficult to do so, so it's not a bad idea in my mind.

[Fool_Hardy]

Moderate and HardCore are not mutually exclusive.

Play team Purple.

[Unknown Brother]

20 lives down from 61 is huge.

 

The con loss protection is moot once you're in a cabal.

The cabal point gain is very nice, but you quickly run out of things to buy, I always have more cp then I can spend. (especially with guild quests giving cp)

The reason I played hardcore was for the training. It's so much faster, but after sitting at 50 while hardcore for ages on Cyprian and Figgilwap I realized I had nothing to do. So I trained things like comprehend languages for 150ish mana a pop. Plus I had a bad habit of rage deletion, so it seemed like a win/win to me. That is until you find a combo you really enjoy, then the 20 lives is terrifying. 

I agree with UC that things should move faster for ruthless, but I don't think I'll play many more of them anymore.

[Fool_Hardy]

20 lives can be plenty for a Herald.

20 lives for a tribunal, maybe not..

I limit my number of deaths in a session to 3.

If I played a Hard Core Tribunal. That is one real world week.

I think there is a misconception in the title. Hard Core. Honestly, its probably the best choice for a new player to make. Hard Core/Moderate.

A new player choosing this path would forgo the advantages of adventurer, but the bonuses would balance the loss. 

Early on I thought people would target "team red", as ooc of an action as it would be, I did expect it.

However, the player base's thirst for RP has evolved to a point where we enjoy having not just enemies to fight, but enemies to build relationships with.

Just my opinion.

Edit: The topic is should Hard Core folks be promoted faster. Not sure that is necessary, really. The time requirements are to force investment for return.

Now, one might make a valid argument that with 20 lives as opposed to 60, a Hard Core player should perhaps receive slightly greater RP rewards for logs, not notes or journals. Reason being that to take time to RP with another with 20 lives, REMAINS far riskier than the same time spent with 60. Just throwing some gas on the fire.

[Magick]

1 hour ago, Fool_Hardy said:

Now, one might make a valid argument that with 20 lives as opposed to 60, a Hard Core player should perhaps receive slightly greater RP rewards for logs, not notes or journals. Reason being that to take time to RP with another with 20 lives, REMAINS far riskier than the same time spent with 60. Just throwing some gas on the fire.

Just because they have fewer lives or train faster doesn't mean their RP is better.  I'm not a fan of boosting RPs from anything, though I understand why you limited it to just logs.

[Ulmusdorn]

3 hours ago, Unknown Brother said:

That is until you find a combo you really enjoy, then the 20 lives is terrifying. 

 

 

Its better right? 

Hardcore already get the appropriate number of advantages. It was created for people who don't want to live for 500 hours and have 30 lives yet.

Its been created specifically so that players who want to condie can. If you're loosing too many lives too quickly - then hardcore (its a difficulty setting) isn't for you  

[Kyzarius]

I love it personally.  Makes death matter.  Haven't con-died one yet, but even still the specter is more real. 

[Ulmusdorn]

On 9/10/2017 at 6:57 AM, Magick said:

Until recently (how recently, I don't know), smurfs weren't allowed rank higher than T except in Merchant, when you could get to E.
Until recently, hardcore wasn't around.

Nothing is set in stone. 

We recently (in the last year) had a smurf WM E. 

If your RP and gameplay warrant it, then fine. But if you're looking at min/maxing (for example if Foxx or Kyz or Fireman smurfed it to keep more EQ) then they would be stuck at T. 

Basically, its a hard life being the best. *shrug*

[Magick]

45 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Nothing is set in stone. 

We recently (in the last year) had a smurf WM E. 

If your RP and gameplay warrant it, then fine. But if you're looking at min/maxing (for example if Foxx or Kyz or Fireman smurfed it to keep more EQ) then they would be stuck at T. 

Basically, its a hard life being the best. *shrug*

Be that as it may, it was in the help file that to T was the limit for smurfs for everything but Herald (not Merchant) before the recent change.  Thus my comment.  Still, it's nice to see exceptions.
There was supposed to be more to that section of my post, probably along the lines of "something something times change something something."  But I can't remember now.

Not disagreeing, just mentioning that I'd left something out that you've likely just pointed out.

[Ulmusdorn]

1 hour ago, Magick said:

Be that as it may, it was in the help file that to T was the limit for smurfs for everything but Herald (not Merchant) before the recent change.  Thus my comment.  Still, it's nice to see exceptions.
There was supposed to be more to that section of my post, probably along the lines of "something something times change something something."  But I can't remember now.

Not disagreeing, just mentioning that I'd left something out that you've likely just pointed out.

 

The reason its in the help file is exactly the reason why you're quoting it. If it wasn't in the help file people would expect to become E's and L's as a moderate tier. 

My point is that when someone is doing something exceptional, we will never stifle that, instead we will reward it unless it really causes an imbalance (like limits on Avatar, but thats a completely different matter). 

[Fool_Hardy]

Let's not forget those players who do not ever expect to get E / L ever. The blue tier has no ceiling (rare count not withsatanding) for us at all. 

Although help files still disqualify moderate from most qstuff. 

[Tantangel]

Quote

MODERATE
 
 
"All things in moderation" is the motto for all who choose this path. While
this tier may be more palatable to those who are newer to the game, it is by
no means the "newbie tier". This tier is for all who are less brutal in the
aspects of Playerkilling. Those who choose the MODERATE tier will receive
the following:
 
- They are limited in the number of rare items that they may wear at one time.
 
- Non-rares (outside of gold) cannot be looted from their corpse.
 
- Only two rare items may be looted from their corpses by the perk who killed
  them.
   
- In turn, they cannot loot more than two items from the corpses of their
  victims.
   
- Once killed by someone, that person cannot kill them again for an extended
  amount of time, UNLESS they re-initiate combat with their killer, or attempt
  to attack their killer's cabal.
   
- They are allowed to join Cabals, and progress to the rank of L, just like the
  ruthless tier.
   
- They are allowed to apply for qrace, and qclasses, just like the ruthless
  tier.

- They cannot be thieves.
 
See Also: HELP RUTHLESS

I've never been fond of anything that really stifles the progress of a character. We've always been told with RP you can have anything, but even that alone is very limited in ways. It seems the help file has been updated for Moderates, which means it may be interesting to play them now if that's the case. It would up the difficulty some by having to choose what items I can wear without hurting myself too much. In fact after pulling up the help file it seems very interesting more so than it has before, so maybe I'll look into it for a character somewhere down the road. If all qclasses/races are able to be applied for, it may even open up avenues for players we haven't seen before.

[Ulmusdorn]

1 hour ago, Tantangel said:

I've never been fond of anything that really stifles the progress of a character. We've always been told with RP you can have anything, but even that alone is very limited in ways. It seems the help file has been updated for Moderates, which means it may be interesting to play them now if that's the case. It would up the difficulty some by having to choose what items I can wear without hurting myself too much. In fact after pulling up the help file it seems very interesting more so than it has before, so maybe I'll look into it for a character somewhere down the road. If all qclasses/races are able to be applied for, it may even open up avenues for players we haven't seen before.

Um no.

Why don't we just stop looting all together then and have everyone running around with High sight?

The point of the game is that death has consequences. If it didn't then I'd be playing 10,000 other things instead. Where there isn't a knife edge. Where there isn't a reset or restart. Where actions have consequences and lives matter.

 

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm delicious. 

[aaa]

44 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

High sight

Can we make behead great again? I'm over the high sight meta, bring back some OG behead meta, I'm ready for some PTSD.

[Tantangel]

1 hour ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Um no.

Why don't we just stop looting all together then and have everyone running around with High sight?

The point of the game is that death has consequences. If it didn't then I'd be playing 10,000 other things instead. Where there isn't a knife edge. Where there isn't a reset or restart. Where actions have consequences and lives matter.

 

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm delicious. 

I'm going off what the help file specifically says and nothing else. It states you can apply for qraces/classes still  without specifying which ones you can't unless you go into the requirements of the others. Which to be fair means you can only apply to a Psi as the others all state clearly you have to be ruthless. According to many people they don't really loot anyways though, or at the very most just take a couple things, so moderate decision shouldn't change people's ways of thought in that aspect should it? Or is it that the help files need to be looked at because they're wrong? I've offered to help with that before with no response, and I'm not trying to seem like an asshole for doing so, but the only people who can fix those files really haven't. If I can see those discrepancies though what does it say for new players coming in? "I know you that you're doing great for your first time here, but sorry, we can't let you be a X because you're a moderate."

You're already looking at limited looting when many people usually can only manage to be competitive with higher end gear, and add in the fact that you can't be decked out in all rares because of the limit as a moderate, they're probably not going to dominate. And if you have two key things taken regardless of whether or not you're Hardcore, Ruthless, or Moderate you don't get right back into the game. It's just a different difficulty altogether and forces you as a player to think more about how you'll dress, what benefits you the most, and go from there. A lot of the qclasses/races are difficult to play because it doesn't suit our play styles. I don't play the game for  power spikes, I play because the class I'm wanting to play is interesting to me and I will try and find the background RP for it so I can attain it. Your death still has consequences either way because of that though.

Say you went through Dischord and Desolation, took a light and the eye to help you out. Your mom finds out and beats you to death because what the fuck are you doing touching eyes anyways?

* She takes the eye, then the light, and makes sure to get rid of the evidence.

* Cabal Warfare added in? Can't kill them after the first time, but guess what. They attacked your altar, so it's game time again. You kill them, poof, there's two more.

* Remove their ability to have life insurance, problem solved.

* Make it so four things can be looted because they're a qrace/class, made it easier to loot a Moderate quickly.

It's not as protective as people seem to perceive it, just merely a way to get around the pre-set rules around them. That's a very painful thing to happen as a Ruthless character who's a qclass/race. Now that they can't be decked and are blue, those items matter more now than ever before. Most wouldn't be able to succeed easily with it, and I'm sure a few would do really well, but it's a thought, and I thought about most variations  to help it. I want to see someone do it, whether it's an Imm or player, just to see how much they can dominate. I'm not sure if it had been tested on Port or not and that was why it was decided that they couldn't be played as a moderate, but if not, it would be an interesting test run. Before everyone else jumps on the band wagon of saying people back in the day could steam roll over people as moderates, it's been tweaked a few times since then hasn't it? And what's the worst thing that happens? They get turned into Ruthless characters and lose any protection they had against their armor.

[Atticus]

Pretty sure you're talking about the necro in nexus. Unless I'm trippin, which I'm not.

[Magick]

31 minutes ago, Tantangel said:

Or is it that the help files need to be looked at because they're wrong? I've offered to help with that before with no response, and I'm not trying to seem like an asshole for doing so, but the only people who can fix those files really haven't.

 

Whether or not the staff is still accepting help on this front is a different matter entirely.  Doesn't stop you from rewriting it so it is worded better or changing it to reflect the current environment.

[Tantangel]

Considering I got no response for the ones I had posted, I assumed they weren't looking for updates to help files. I get it, I was there once and I was busy as fuck with many things all at the same time all IRL and not about the game though, so I offered to help because I'm more than happy to do so. I just find things that are contradictions to one another extremely irritating. For instance one of my courses the syllabus had stated clearly that a few of the first assignments were due on Friday just before midnight. That's great, but then he placed it online and it claimed it was due that Tuesday at the same time. I emailed him and he responded back saying that he was accepting those all the way through until Saturday night prior to midnight. Literally the same teacher, three different due dates, all for the same assignment.

@Atticus if you're referring to me, then yes you're tripping. I haven't fought the character ever, and the one interaction I did have with him I had a pretty good chat with him that went on for over an hour. I liked his RP as it stood at that point, but I didn't really realize he was a moderate until very recently.

[Atticus]

Superb rp yes, he is a brick house of terror behind that at some rp welcome mat though. I'm not tripping bro

 

[Fool_Hardy]

@Tantangelthat sounds about par for the course in college.

Then you will have one teacher who counts Friday at midnight as Thursday at midnight.

Its the college conspiracy, it is designed to make you believe there are more than 24 hours in a day.

That way when you join the workforce you will tell your people 27 hours in a day is ACHIEVABLE, if they work smarter and not harder. 

[Tantangel]

They may believe that 27 hours is achievable, but it doesn't change the fact that it's literally 24 and a 27 hour mark for a day can't be feasible in our lifetime or any others for at least another 500 million years. I can out think, out do, and out perform everyone I used to work with which meant on my days of I was being asked what to do through text often, and when I told someone it was a bad idea and they were adamant it was still a good idea I got to watch as they got scolded, and praised when they would try and do it my way. It made me overly confident and cocky beyond measure. Regardless though, that is literally one class. All of my others are precise and logical. It doesn't make sense to bounce around assignments from their deviated times unless everyone agrees to it. Bouncing it around just makes it harder to trust a person, which you don't really want to do in any real setting. I've seen it done before, and it didn't end well for that individual as they lost their job  because it got out of hand. It's the best thing that ever happened to me because that person hated my guts and they were above me. Then they tried to be my buddy after the fact. I don't play those games, if I wanted to, I'd be trying to sleep with every gal that's even remotely attractive.

[Celerity]

If you are looking for rationality, academia isn't the place to find it. I was horribly disappointed with the lack of scientific inquiry and general reasonableness in that institution. A lot of pretending and pretension, a lot of politics and prestige-building, but not a lot of substance, learning, or inquiry. Academic writing is the art of ego-inflating and obfuscation in that everyone who matters pretends you wrote something worthwhile. It is disgusting. Celebrating diversity through intolerance. Critical inquiry just so long as I agree with it. It is a grand farse.

On the other hand, once I learned it was more about understanding which hoops the instructor (or peer reviewer) wanted you to jump through, I was a lot more settled with the whole situation.

The professor might be right or wrong, the task might be frivolous, the celebrated paper might be a load of horseshit, but the important part is to learn to identify what the professor wants you to do and get it done. Just the same as outside academia - this is the life skill to be learned. Service and flattery through submission to their present command is the order of the day.

When a customer wants you to do something, you don't think too much about their consistency in description or things like that. You think about the best way to deliver what they really want. It requires some judgment and discretion.

You can be a textbook or syllabus lawyer, but you'll have as much luck as explaining the law to a police officer when they intend to enforce something on you. Being right isn't going to make a lot of difference because it is secondary to authority. Being right is not a position of strength nor does it give you authority, unfortunately. Righteousness only stands on the whim of authority. This is a life truth.

[f0xx]

33 minutes ago, Celerity said:

Being right is not a position of strength nor does it give you authority, unfortunately. Righteousness only stands on the whim of authority. This is a life truth.

This is indeed the sad life truth...