Kartekenth (Werebeast Zerker, uncaballed) vs. Kotrag (Feral Ninja, Syndicate)

[Anonymous]

I would prefer not to have the thread locked. Those are my observations. Tsuki strike accounted for 19 unblockable attacks. With throws, Kotrag had 23 auto-attacks in the mix. With nymph hearts, he outhealed me quicker than a 100 hp per use berserk. 

 

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Anonymous]

It isn't cheap, it is code, hence the clarification. 

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Anonymous]

 

We can agree to disagree politely on some level.

I am opposed to unblockable attacks.

I am opposed to a failed skill (push) enabling additional unblockable and automatic attacks to support the flee/murder strategy instead of penalizing the failed skill.

I am opposed to ninjas as a melee class (this might be the main one).

I am opposed to farming nymph hearts outweighing a path skill.

I am opposed to syndicate. 

I am for berserkers steamrolling most classes with little effort...

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Anonymous]

^ This is not me by the way.

 

10 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

I would prefer not to have the thread locked.

Then you should stop posting crap?

 

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 Tsuki strike accounted for 19 unblockable attacks. 

Most of which were grazes. Really? Next you are going to complain about poison. Ninjas are op, ninjas have poison. Coincidence?

 

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With throws, Kotrag had 23 auto-attacks in the mix.

Which you could have easily prevented by initiating first or dirting.

Oh wait, you fought on water....

 

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With nymph hearts, he outhealed me quicker than a 100 hp per use berserk. 

That's just a straight assumption there. Ninjas have acupuncture too, not just nymph hearts. And you weren't just outhealed, you were outdamanged too, because you were too busy spamming berserk.

 

Once again, what are you actually complaining about?

You were outdressed, outranked and outplayed. Does it come as a surprise that you lost? 

When are people going to start accepting that their losses happen due to their own mistakes, and not the opposite side being OP or cheating?

I am seriously disappointed. 

Even more so because you are actually an Immortal, who knows my tactics, my fighting habits, my EQ, my score sheet, my hiding spots.

Really really disappointed.

 

Kotrag

 

Anonymous poster hash: e76b7...48d

[Anonymous]

I reject the position that my posts are crap. The log was posted to illustrate points that I thought and still think are valid. I understand you disagree with them. I do apologize if my remarks implied it was not a legitimate win. You did outplay me, but I think there is a conversation to be had about your characters code-based strength. Please know this is not an attack on you. If I was in your position, I would also leverage these strengths.

Yes, I fought on water so I could see you coming. As berserkers cannot hide, cannot see hidden, and do not benefit from rogue-like abilities, I thought it would be a good test case of melee strength. That actually is one of my points which has perhaps not been elucidated - you have a great number of skills not shown here to win a fight. Yes, I did not maximizing melee potential, however you did not need to use any of your shadow skills given the melee might your combo represents. Which is to say this is not the strongest play you are able to bring to the table and your character is much stronger than show here.

I am not an immortal, and I do not know your tactics, habits, eq, score sheet, or hiding spots.

I accept the criticisms and believe there is value in an ongoing conversation about the code-based strengths you leveraged here, and the maximum output of your class, to which this log serves as a single point of review. 

 

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Rygothran]

If you're going to post anonymously, put your character name on the bottom or do not post at all.

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Whats with all the random anonymous posts....

Kotrag outplayed the zerk and won. Plain and simple.

I also fought him, and he outplayed me and won but the fight looked a lot different.

I was sort of in the lead at the beginning because I did not let him get the opening attack.

I bet Kotrag can attest to how many times he kept fleeing just to try and get the opener.

What turned the tide of the fight was when his syndicate autoblind landed before my warmaster auto dirt, and he was able to flee as that happened.

At that point he got quite a few murder rounds on me before I was able to cure the blindness. I am pretty sure he also did a lot of healing versus me because I was not fast enough to keep the pressure on him.

He also refused to stand and fight when I raged/used forms.

This is just good tactics, it was a great fight and he beat me fair and square.

Push is not OP in my opinion, failing a push as far as I know does not lag the pushed player at all, and it lags the ninja 1 round I believe. It is used similarly to retreat, a way of fleeing and knowing which way you went. If he is using push to get out of combat and return for a murder round it will ONLY work if you lag yourself or if you are blind and he is not.

-Berston

Anonymous poster hash: 26e05...134

[Anonymous]

I accept you think I was outplayed. I do have ongoing issues with his melee potential. 

As noted, we can agree to disagree.

Except, I will also note, my disagreement is to such a level that I will not be rolling another character when there is such an imbalance.

You can call it whining/being a sore loser/etc. My points are embedded above. Failing push needs to be re-examined. Nymph hearts need to be re-examined. Ninjas should melt under two rages axes.

-Kartekenth

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Anonymous]

2 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

to which this log serves as a single point of review. 

 

This log can not serve as anything because you played badly, you were not equally dressed and you were outranked, cabal wise.

This battle was a David vs Goliath from the very start. You made it even worse with your bad tactics.

The whole idea about the update to ninjas was so that we can have more melee oriented ninjas and less assassin/falcon eye oriented ones.

Out of this change we got ONE ninja who does well.

ONE.

And how many berserkers have we had after the berserker update?

You should also know that most of the ninja nerfs happened because of my own suggestions and logs I posted on prayer.

 

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Ninjas should melt under two rages axes.

Is that how  you conceive proper balance?

Really? 

Wear two axes, own all rogues? Problem  solved?

And those are the type of people that have a saying in the decision making balance changes of this game?

*smh*

 

Kotrag

 

Anonymous poster hash: e76b7...48d

[Anonymous]

I don't know what gave you the impression that I am an imm or have a say in anything, but I assure you it is not the case.

-Kartekenth

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Rygothran]

While I agree that ninja should be looked at as all things should be looked at... the game as it is right now has gone heavily in the direction of requiring consumables to truly compete on the level that Kotrag sits. There are exceptions to this rule but generally this is the way you need to go about things in order to compete. This includes all the herbs and yes... nymph hearts. What you fail to mention here is that Kotrag uses them, but nothing is stopping you from being just as prepared and using them as well.

Do I agree that it should be like this, that you should have to camp around emerald forest to get the hearts? I am honestly not sure but I learn towards no. However, this is the way of things as they currently are. 

[Anonymous]

Balance to me means that you plot all player kills along a bell curve and see which characters are outliers. I would argue (and admittedly i don't have this information at hand) that Kotrag would be several standard deviations from the norm and that part of this is his skill and part of it is the combined effects of code-benefits resulting in, dare I say, a power advantage. 

 

-Kartekenth

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Anonymous]

Instead of attacking me as a player you might address the points I have made specifically about the effect of failing a push and about nymph hearts. There is no need for you to be so defensive. 

I probably would have lost even with these changes.

That does not invalidate the log as useful data.

-Kartekenth

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Rygothran]

Let's cool down. It's a log. It's a player suggesting changes based on the log and players rebuttal to those changes that were suggested. Nothing changes based off one log. It's discussion, observation, and more discussion before anything will be changed, if at all.

[Anume]

You posted the same log on the prayer forum a few weeks ago. Apparently you dismissed our input and now sought out the input of the player base as a whole. Don't be upset if you get similar replies. If ALL ninjas will start roflstoping the pbase, we will certainly look into it. This is not the case however. You'd not do better against a fully decked cabal leader of another cabal with the just stand there and pour out the damage approach is my personal estimation.

[Anonymous]

I am not upset nor have I dismissed your input. I do value the replies here and from the broader pbase. 

 

-Kartekenth

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Anonymous]

This was my response in prayer which I still believe and have offered for review by a wider audience.

 

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Personally I think nymph hearts might be the problem. You can down three of them (60 - 90 hp), perhaps more, quicker than a berserker can use an essential path skill to restore 100 hp (with self-lag and a chance of failure). 

To which my suggestion would be reduce nymph hearts to a random X variable that is a 5d5 roll, minimum value 5, maximum value 25, and also put the same amount of lag on it that you can when you sacrifice an item.

That, or make them for moderate characters only.

As a secondary point of consideration, tsuki strike accounted for 19 free hits (Injures, Injures, Mauls, Mauls, Wounds, Decimates, devastates, Mauls, Decimates, Decimates. Grazes, Mauls, injures, Decimates, Injures, Decimates, Devastates, Hits, Grazes)

To which my suggestion would be to make tsuki strike a hand to hand attack that is subject to hit or miss based on AC/Thaco considerations. Additionally, I would suggest removing tsuki strike when pugil is in effect.

Those hits are in addition to 4 autothrow attacks which he was given when engaging with murder or shoot. Four rounds open with the shadow launcher and end with an auto-throw (Injure, devastates, MANGLES, DISMEMBERS), for a total of 23 free attacks while shooting and tsuki striking, not counting any weapon or cabal effects.

To which my suggestion would be that a raged berserker should always be able to engage faster than another player can flee/murder or even walk by. To which a second suggestion would be that shurikens should not be thrown when other ranged weapons are going off. 

Please also note that his shuriken damage (MANGLES), and I am not sure if this was hitting a vuln, exceeded any damage I was able to do with over 100 dam.

And the number of attacks he got off on me using a (presumably, staff) exceeded the number I got off on him validly while using a weapon type he did not know.

As a final suggestion I think push should be changed so that if you fail, you run INTO the character, not rolling out of the room, and it lags you like a bash/bodyslam. 

As it stands now, failing a push is just a way for the player to re-engage with murder and take advantage of the throw auto-attack (which should also be invalidated by rage, in terms of being able to beat the zerk's timing of re-engaging).

Also, when a zerker is raged, make the opponents chance to flee reduced by 10 to 20% and disable rescue unless berserker is blinded. Lots of mob/rescue/flee abuse going on... unrelated to this battle.

Just my 2 cents.

-Kartekenth

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Kyzarius]

I would argue that nymph hearts are a none issue because they are universally accessible. 

Nothing stops you from gathering them, and using them yourself. 

The log just shows how not to play a berserker in my opinion.  And that yes you cant just win spamming lag commands. 

[Anume]

Ok guys. Imms don't post logs here to get an opinion different than they got from the staff (which the player did not get here either). It's a players option to get more opinions if they feel strongly about something. So let's be more civil, even if you disagree.

[Anonymous]

Kyz do we have a log of how to play a berserker against Kotrag.

 

-Kartekenth

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Kyzarius]

I dont have my lycanthus fight vs him sadly.  Though you can ask him how "easy" i was compared to the above.

You can be snarky with me all day tbh.  I am just summarizing the message in these comments sans kid gloves. 

[Anonymous]

No snark. What was the outcome ?

 

-kartekenth

Anonymous poster hash: c922d...29e

[Kyzarius]

I did very well actually.  He couldnt stay in combat if dirted or haymakered.  I lost only because he caught me with an abduct out of beastform because i dropped to use a glimmering and had several tics before i could change again.  Bad decision on my part.  Should of kept smoking.

Against anyone other than kotrags player I would of won imo.  But hes a very good pker.  And was ready to capitalize on my mistake.

[Pali]

10 hours ago, Anonymous said:

I've marked everything that's incorrect in your post, @Pali,

I'm mostly just wondering how that post ended with a Starfleet reference... I was pretty drunk at the time and posting off mobile, so I'm guessing it was autocorrect.

 

That said, I stand by paladin and mino charge lagging charger and charged for two rounds (perhaps slightly shy of two rounds).  I've never seen a log that this was not the case for with minos, and I've played enough paladins to be certain in their case.