Absolutely Done With The OOC And Player Favoritism

[Unknown Criminal]

Delete me:

Gurumba, Golidicus, Hornecka, Amunsta, Sine and any other char I may have rolled to help people rank or to just keep people company.

Every single day I'm hauled up to a role playing or deep shit room for some of the dumbest crap, this last one is a final straw. 

The latest rule, if you are neutral and someone has tried to kill you in the past while their cabal (syndicate) has taken your life multiple times, you are not allowed to attack that person. 

Yes I was a warmaster, yes he is a bounty hunter. I logged in, saw a huge PK list, DEATHMARKED MY ENEMY, gave  him 10 hours and attacked. He IGNORED my deathmark and started fighting someone else, then when I attacked he spammed me with 'Im telling the gods, your dumb, your an idiot and your gonna get demoted'... wtf? Then I lose 5 RP points... wtf again?

Screw this, I'll take my 10+ hours a day playtime to someplace I'm allowed to play. I've never felt so abused and disrespected for putting time and energy into something as trivial as a game. To all the friends of my characters I'm sorry, you just have no idea the shit I've had to put up with just to be able to play with you. 

UC

[Anume]

I docked you both -5 rp points.

Him for threatening Imm punishment.

You, got of very very easy in this. So what did you do wrong? 1. You logged on into an ongoing cabal warfare and then deathmarked and attacked someone who was already fighting someone else. This goes againt WM rp in general, has nothing to do with neutral. 2. You attacked someone as a neutral without a proper reason. We've talked to you about this several times, you were even outcast for a short while and you still do not understand that "someone of his faction killed me 4 times" is not a reason for a neutral to attack anyone. You did not state that he attacked you first, and he did not, as he was fighting someone else. So, I - could - have outcasted you again, but no, I docked you -5 rp points.

Now you come to the forum, stamping your foot, moaning and groaning. I just want to tell you that this staff takes an extremly easy approach in regards to rule enforcement and punishment. Former staff would simply have denied the character without all these second, third and fourth chances. I also fail to see what this has to do with favoritsm or ooc. I've pretty much told you on Gurumba that I had been trying to get the cabal full, so I could make you E (only a full cabal allows 3 Es). Just accept that if YOU mess up, then it is not the staff's fault if there are consequences.

Maybe you are having a hard time in your life atm, maybe it is something else, but you are bleeding that over into the game and behave extremely immature. Take a break, think about stuff, come back when you are in a better frame of mind.

[Dale]

I really, really enjoy our interactions IG and I really wouldn't want to see you go.  I'm trying to avoid all ooc I can in this game, and I feel you when an imm summons you up and says, " This is OOC it breaks my heart a little, but you got to understand that its a game and most of the players here are the hardcore stuck it out for years players.  I don't talk to people OOC because it always winds up the same way, every one has a dick to wave at at some point they are going to show it.  Now I don't know what's going on in your situation but I really hope you don't go, you are one of the few people who actually put your ego aside IG and had some fun with me, especially with Horns.  Coming here to the forums and stomping your foot was a very accurate way of describing your post, you really just need to take a breath and calm down.  I hope I still run into you in game.

[Mmm Coffee]

Jesus, how do you have the time for 3 caballed characters?  Love Gurumba!  Minimal interaction on the others.

[Celerity]

Small note for Warmaster RP: Since he deathmarked, I think he satisfied any Warmaster notion about jumping into a fight. 10 hours is enough time to disengage or otherwise be prepared for another attacker.

[Erelei]

28 minutes ago, Celerity said:

Small note for Warmaster RP: Since he deathmarked, I think he satisfied any Warmaster notion about jumping into a fight. 10 hours is enough time to disengage or otherwise be prepared for another attacker.

As a barbarian, yes, this is applicable to the RP he displayed.

Not as a Gladiator.

[aaa]

I feel like these types of issues always stem from neutrals being allowed in syndicate. 

They basically get to play evil-lite while being the same exact ethos as others who get a much stricter ruleset to play by. 

If we're talking about the same syndicate, I've always had an issue with their "neutral " act. 

[Aidon]

So on Hornecka you clearly were looking to invent reasons to PK. You twisted your RP up to try to justify the fact that you wanted to pk them. I don't get why you didn't just roll an evil and go kill everyone? 

You sent a note to the whole game saying you would kill anyone who cast spells. 

You told me that you had to fight me because there were two knights and one tribunal and that's dishonorable, even though I wasn't even fighting the Tribunal. 

If you want go on random killing sprees so bad why not just roll an evil?

[Erelei]

19 minutes ago, Wade said:

I feel like these types of issues always stem from neutrals being allowed in syndicate. 

They basically get to play evil-lite while being the same exact ethos as others who get a much stricter ruleset to play by. 

If we're talking about the same syndicate, I've always had an issue with their "neutral " act. 

The character in question Hornecka attacked was evil, not neutral. This has nothing to do at all with what you're talking about. 

[Trick]

Interpretation of RP by the Staff will always trump that of the Pbase regardless if it is actually wrong. Their opinion means more because they are the enforcers of the rules and its their sandbox. There are a few things that the IMMs are consistently wrong about in regards to RP and will be that way until a change in management occurs.

Referencing the actions of past Staff members in regards to handling a punitive action is ironic considering a few of the things I've seen handled weren't against the rules during the era of past Staff members. The Staff is lenient on a lot of things these days, but one thing is clear; If @Anume thinks whatever you did or are doing is a breech of RP, then you will be punished or at least made aware that she doesn't like it.

The favoritism I think UC is talking about is that some people are allowed to get away with this and others aren't. Honestly, and I don't mean this disrespectfully or insulting, there is a "feeling" that if @Anume likes your character or your RP then you can essentially get away with anything. If @Anume doesn't like your RP or your character, then your leash is considerably shorter. I can say I've felt this at times as well. I've been on both sides. Having my RP celebrated and cheered on and having it be called stupid. Yes, the word stupid was used.

 

And that's the way it is. Which is cool, whatever. But own it. Virigoth did this VERY well. Often saying that this is his game, with his rules, and if he didn't like it then it wasn't going to fly. The same thing is happening except no one is admitting to it. Rules are stated in defense of this, but the rules cited don't exist anywhere. IE: Not written. Help files are stated in defense of this, but the help files cited contradict everything that is being said. IE: They don't match up.

 

[Unknown Criminal]

Hornecka as a gladiator is/was not allowed to defend his own honor, come attack me, come threaten me, come kill me. After you are done with your assault (win or lose) I'm not allowed to challenge, deathmark, hassle or kill you no matter how many lives I've lost because of what has transpired unless you are a savant. It doesn't matter that I've lost honor in battle and it doesn't matter if I've lost my life defending the camp, all that matters is "I logged on today, the past is history so it is erased, I've never met anyone annnnd I'm not to do anything unless I'm prevolked at this very minute", That sums it up right Anume? 

230 hours... my entire roleplay, my character personality, my honor, my acceptance of situation in the face of certain death all means nothing because I PK'ed for 5 minutes one day and 1 minute another. 229 hours and 54 minutes of unrewarded roleplay/gameplay thrown in the toilet for a character I had the most fun with. 

Yes, I messed up the first time I saw a full PK range after 225 HOURS of gameplay and attacked Aidon at his pit. Yes I also messed up 5 minutes later when I killed the demon at his pit regardless of our previous interactions and his knowing of my demon hatred. (Irant has killed me multiple times, a demon, Hornecka haaaates demons). Neither time did I pit hump where it was pure luck/bad luck that caught them there. From my previous experiences playing Dhemicus (savant vs warmaster) I was told NEVER to recall because someone would kill me at my pit, so I started teleporting.  Do other people get told not to recall because 'shit happens' or was that just me? 

Anyhow, the moral of the story is that I'm tired of being treated like a piece of crap. I put in waaaay too much time helping my enemies with one char and then fighting them with another at a disadvantage. As an example, ask Anthazer about how much equipment or support he received from gurumba and golidicus before ever facing Hornecka. Also ask Kotrag how gurumba bows down and sets him up with anything and everything, only to get myself murked in pk with Hornecka. I'm not cheater and I don't break the rules, if anything I make PK hard on myself because I have the time to do so.

Anyways who cares, I can't get ahead because I'm always getting penalized for 1 bad minute out of every hundred minutes of perfection. Screw your people's fun and screw my fun because if anyone messes up slightly for justa second punishment will come, and one thing I can tell you for sure is that it's faster and easier to remake a char then to pull him from punishment. Outcast, demotion or negative RP points are a sure sign to delete and try again. Coming back from a deficite only gets you more closely watched for future punishment, it's not the badge of achievement it's supposed to be.

 

[Erelei]

If you really want your history plastered on the forum for everyone to see, please let me know, so I can go through every single time you've been moved away from the playable areas and put into DS, or the RP room, or the Name room.

The above interaction happened when you attacked a Syndicate who was fighting someone else. You were not penalized for attacking someone as a neutral - you were penalized for being a Gladiator and attacking someone who was clearly already fighting.

And it was 5rp, and the person you attacked also got penalized for threatning IMM punishment. I mean, if you wanna quit over this, be my guest. But don't make it sound like you're ALWAYS upstairs in the IMM rooms talking to us. Sure, you've been up there quite a bit recently, but every single instance had a reason, and they were properly explained to you each and every time. 

@Anume just happened to be the one who caught you in this instance, and was very lax with the 'punishment' / slap on the wrist.

[Atticus]

Been on both sides of this. For years I felt like i was on a shit list. And i even have my times of weakness  to this day and the imms have called me on my bullshit. Instead of freaking out in alot of cases I group chat myself which im sure cracks the imms up from my charger and even some times personal frustrations. 

I can tell you that you can always redeem yourself. You obviously love the game and i can tell you that I love your characters for the most part. Take a break and try to calm down. The end of the day I believe the imms are really trying to keep the game fun and in check for everyone. 

Keep trucking dude.

[Manual Labour]

You were clearly pissed about the outcast on Hornecka and the stream of notes to warmaster and immortal after it was borderline ooc.

in general I like your characters and had positive interactions with them. I think you are probably too emotional and let personal aggravation bleed into your characters, believe me I know this from personal experience. 

[Zoichan]

Keep it civil @Unknown Criminal @Fireman.

Lets treat this thread as a goodbye to UC, who obviously put a lot of time and effort into the game we all love to hate, and hate to love. And love to love I suppose as well.

If you want a PK thrill, come play a Tribunal. I hear they have quite a few wars to fight.

[Lexi]

I interacted with at least three of those characters, and have nothing but positive things to say about each. I had a few challenges and just recently won my first one and it felt amazing. I was so proud of myself because of how you trashed me in our earlier battles. Gurumba showed me around a bit in areas I was unfamiliar with (esp. at the Demon Pit), and helped me gather some equipment.  That gatestone he gave me was even used on a few occasions. Golidicus just smashed me to pieces, repeatedly. Heck, he hit so hard I died when I was already dead!

They're all good characters. Would be sad to see them go.

[English lad]

I have my issues with Syndicate and how it affects RP in general in the game - but I'm afraid I can't back @Unknown Criminal on this one.

I've always been a massive advocate of separating IC and OOC rules / punishments etc.  Characters that follow the cookie cutter are always boring - people should RP outside the box - but they should expect IC consequences.

You made a decision that Hornecka, as a character, would choose to attack this individual regardless of Gladiator RP, due to his past experiences.

There is nothing wrong with that from an OOC perspective.  You didn't break an OOC rules.  What you did was in breach of Gladiator RP, and you received IC consequences.  That is what is supposed to happen.

If you were getting slapped with OOC punishments (character denial for example) for an IC infringement, I would have an issue with that.  There needs to be a clear defining line on how IC vs OOC punishments are handed out, as if we start punishing people OOC for Roleplay that a specific immortal doesn't like - they we risk losing all individual and creative RP.

[Anume]

A little addition: If you had been an evil glad and thought the trib, being outnumbered, needed help, the way to go would have been to ask the trib whom he was fighting and then fight one of his other enemies. Attacking the guy he was fighting would have been bad even as an evil Gladiator. I've never said you are not allowed to fight / attack someone IF you have a proper reason as a neutral. Someone having killed you before (other session or not), clearly is a very good reason. Someone having attacked you before, also fully suffices. Still does not give you the right to jump them while they are fighting someone else as a gladiator. You also did not mention a personal vendetta, but rather that his faction has killed you 4 times before, and that is not a good enough reason as it generalizes. That is evil rp, aka, all mages must die, 1 person of a group did something bad, so they all must die. Neutrals can be complicated to rp, but they also can't be protected against. Maybe they are just not something for you. 

General note to the pbase: I think that most people overract to a small rp penalty completely. Looking at you here as well f0xx. It's not the end of the char, it does not mean your behavior warrants an Imm to actually step in (just yet). It's a sign to think about certain behaviors. Some things are of course not objective, but some things definitely are. I definitely won't penalize just bc I don't like your rp personally. I will penalize you, if your rp breaks your align / ethos / cabal rp / previously shown rp/ is borderline or fully ooc, etc. As f0xx mentioned in another threat, it's not good rp to play the bloodthirsty avatar only when there are weak evils on, this can easily be transferred to most other cabals. It is not good rp to tell the one who just took your standard he is a coward and log off. It is not good rp to ignore an enemy / target of your cabal bc you are personally scared of them. Sometimes being caballed means you have to take risks. This is even more true once you are an E / L of said cabal. And I do not target this at any character, so if you feel targeted, think about why.

[Pali]

59 minutes ago, Anume said:

You also did not mention a personal vendetta, but rather that his faction has killed you 4 times before, and that is not a good enough reason as it generalizes. That is evil rp, aka, all mages must die, 1 person of a group did something bad, so they all must die.

Well... it's evil RP, but it's also good RP - as in Lightwalker/Avatar RP.  It's also Stalker RP.  There are theological and ideological aspects to such beyond a purely simplistic group generalization, but that generalization exists all over this game: Elves will kill someone for being Drow without any specific knowledge of that person and it's totally fine, Avatars will kill anyone that is evil regardless of knowledge of activities and it's fine, Stalkers will kill undead/demons/avatars/necromancers because the unnatural is either dangerous or blasphemous without knowing the individual and that's fine... the list goes on.  It used to be perfectly acceptable Warmaster RP for a neutral to want to slaughter all mages, because of a belief that magic was inherently corrupting and dangerous in mortal hands (hell, back in 1.0 that was literally the foundational belief of the Warmaster cabal, regardless of align) - is that no longer something a neutral Warmaster can believe, or act upon such belief?  What is inherently evil about believing that use of magic is too dangerous for mortal hands, and that anyone who crosses that line needs to be stopped without mercy for the sake of the greater good?  It's ruthless, but evil?

 

edit: And with respect to Syndicate - if the above counts as evil, how the hell does murder for profit not?

[aaa]

I personally don't see an issue with a minotaur acting chaotic. 

They're known for their temper, why wouldn't one hate an entire subset of cabal/race/class if one has previously wronged them. 

I think the imms need to step back and think about their role, they're effectively the DMs here and should try to act like the type of DM they'd like to play with instead of the type of DM that no one wants to play with again. This is in no way a jab at the staff. 

I personally think losing a player like unknown criminal is exactly what we don't want to do.  Instead of zealously defending your own position despite how right or wrong you are, try to listen to a players concern. Ultimately without players we don't have a game. 

[Erelei]

So.. all we have to do is complain and the IMMs need to stand back and realize losing a player isn't worth it, so they should let it go.

I wonder how many people would quit over that stance. I don't think everyone realizes there's about twenty sides here - and the IMMs jobs are apparently mediators now (and have been for years). We can't make everyone happy. If we loosen up on someone because they threaten to quit, where we didn't for someone else, then favoritism jabs are thrown around.

Seems like favoritism jabs are thrown around anyway. Can't win! In the future, these threads will not be plastered to the public for all to see - everyone sees one side, and sees the IMMs as the enemies here. Case in point:

----
I think the imms need to step back and think about their role, they're effectively the DMs here and should try to act like the type of DM they'd like to play with instead of the type of DM that no one wants to play with again.
----

[Anume]

If you roll a neutral char solely for the reason that nobody can use protection against you and then act like an evil, this is something that will lead to a lot of  complaints on the prayer forum (rightfully so). How do you think we get aware of such situations? If we then see this is a pattern and not a one time situation, we step in. And this is exactly what Imms are for. It is NOT an enjoyable duty. Do you think I like it if I have to pull someone up and talk to them about various rule infringements twice a week? I really can imagine a LOT of better things to do with my time. As to UC, he can be a positive influence on the game and he has been that with various characters. I'm not after him, nor do I even consider him a truly problematic player. 

As I think my post above about generic hatret being evil can be easily misunderstood, here some clarification on how neutral rp has worked in fl for the last 10 years or so.

A neutral character needs a solid reason to attack - anyone. I'm a chaotic guy who likes to kill -> evil.

Good reasons:

- they attacked me before / they killed me before (not their buddy, but they), does not matter when

- they are a member of a cabal / clan that I have a cabal vendetta against

- they are a member of my cabal's target group (unnatural for watcher, bountied for syndicate)

- I am trying to join a certain cabal -> I can act the same way as the members of that cabal -> a sacred oak can aggressively hunt down anything unnatural, a cartel trying to go Hunter can attack / kill someone with a bounty he did NOT place himself.

 

An evil character can attack anyone as long as he shows some rp. We do not encourage silent pk. If an evil acts out of character in his behavior so strongly that several people notice this without a rp explanation, they might also get some rp points docked or worse, if they for example break ethos. Example: a lawful evil attacks someone in a lawful area without having sent an application for an ethos change before that.

A good character is very limited with their pk, UNLESS the other side is evil. If the other side is evil and you are purity or rp in a good-aggressive way, you can kill them. If you are compassion (religion) an all out war on all evils would not be good rp. Goods have to have a very good reason to attack or kill any neutral (cabal war / self defense / extremely strong rp motive), the same goes for bountying any neutrals. An avatar is the most extreme purity rp can get. They are REQUIRED to go out and aggressively hunt down any evil. An avatar ignoring evils (he is afraid of, he does not consider a threat, he wants to have political relations with) is bad  avatar rp. That they are required to hunt down and kill evil does however not mean that they have to kill a non-pinn 4 times in a row because no other evils are online. Use best judgement.

Put yourself in the other guy's shoes. This works well with most situations. It is also terrible rp for an evil to sit around naked in cc and then be upset if an avatar kills them. Another fine example of bad rp is someone completely ignoring having been turned undead by a vampire. I've seen this multible times before and very few people manage to pull that off nicely. I remember way back there was a Knight E who got turned and then got sent on a Knight killing spree by his new "master". He killed three other Knights while he was turned undead. He did not get outcast. When the undead wore off, he rped being horrified by what he had done and the next few weeks was some rp of remorse, trying to make amends and trying to extingish that vampire. Great rp.

[Celerity]

I know I've pointed this out quite recently, but the issue is that the rules are inconsistent.

A major reason that is cited as to why neutral cannot PK is because they can't be protected against.

1. Why are we citing a PK condition for RP enforcement of align? Are fire giants not allowed to attack feral because feral are vuln to fire? What does that matter at all?

2. So you want to cite protection: Neutrals can't be protected against. They also can't protect themselves. They deal more damage and take more damage. So what? Does this position makes them imbalanced for PK to the point you need some rule specifically for it? Fix it, if you think it is that imbalanced, but don't try to enforce an RP rule based on this.

 

Inconsistency: 

It is morally good to kill evils, so goods can do it at will, depending on their religion or if they have 'aggressive RP'.

but

It is morally bad to kill evils, so neutrals can't do it, regardless of their religion or 'aggressive RP'.

 

Inconsistency:

It is evil for a neutral Warmaster to kill a mage.

but

It is not evil for a good Warmaster (purity or have "aggressive RP") to kill a mage.

 

Inconsistency:

Align trumps cabal, so neutrals need a reason to attack, goods can't fight other goods.

but

Cabal trumps align, so it isn't evil to kill for profit as a Syndicate, it isn't evil to capture a good as a good Tribunal, it isn't evil for a neutral to kill a qrace if they are Watcher.

(major inconsistency in the game and you will continually have rules issues as long as this exists)

 

Inconsistency:

Killing is an evil act.

but

Killing is is not an evil act if you do it for someone else in a religion or organization, 

 

Inconsistency:

I hate having to pull people up to micromanage rules, PK issues, complaints, and RP problems

but

I micromanage the rules regarding PK, have inconsistent, sometimes hidden or implied rules, and get involved in RP situations.

 

Inconsistency:

Death is to be avoided. It is bad RP to do anything that would knowingly lead to your death.

but

You need to take risks, even at near certain death, to have good RP.

(only solution here is to log off, and thus we have always seen a lot of log offs)

 

Inconsistency:

Align A can attack anyone if they show 'RP'.

but

Align B can attack anyone if they show 'RP' and have cause.

but

Align C can attack B and A if they show 'RP' and have cause.

but

Align C can attack align C when it shows great RP to do so, but could also be horribly punished if the staff disagrees. (making it way too dangerous to attempt 'great rp', as Anume suggested)

(way too risky, because it is a 'judgment call' has serious consequences if your judgment doesn't match the judgment of the staff)

 

Inconsistency:

Use your personal judgment to solve RP gray areas. Act in your personal RP to determine if you can PK somebody or not.

but

The staff will decide if your RP is acceptable (and quantifies it with RP points), if you have due cause to PK someone, and if your personal judgment matches the staff judgment.

 

Inconsistency:

I hate it when player disputes become public, because only one side is often seen, and usually not the staff side.

but

I hide the staff decision-making process, some of the actual ruleset, rule enforcement process, and enforcement history from players.

 

--

 

If you guys hate micromanaging the rules so much, make it so you don't need to micromanage the rules. Clean up your ruleset, make it consistent, and you'll have way less of this crap.

GET YOUR RULESET IN THE HELPFILES EXACTLY AS YOU ENFORCE IT. This alone will eliminate a large portion of your violations.

One solution: make killing based on either align OR cabal OR religion: apply universally. You will have lots of issues if you

• continue with the different standards for different groups (aligns, cabals, religions. qraces)
• the nested "if, if, if, if" to determine if something is OK
• encourage personal judgment, but enforce staff-driven 'central judgment'

You'll also have way less of this crap and less 'he said, she said' if you make rule enforcement public. Rule enforcement is public in real life for very good reasons.

[Aidon]

I complained to the imms about Hornecka, so maybe I'll say why I personally felt like I t was worth complaining.

I was level 48 doing quests. I worded myself to my temple. A neutral gladiator walks in and charges me at my pit and kills me with no word.

I send tells to him trying to understand why and get really weak answers and it felt like he was making it up as he went along.

I would not have complained if he had tried to rp with me, we had explored each other's characters, and even if his logic was flawed he had worked really hard to show the rp reason behind it.

As a gladiator, especially against a non-pinn he didn't even know, I felt like he should have rpd, challenged me, etc. Now as a good, I wasn't going to want to fight him. But I wouldn't have felt as bad about it except it felt like he was just attacking me at complete random and making the rp up after the fact to try and justify it because I started talking to him.

I think there is a legitimate discussion around whether someone is allowed to rp a neutral who wants to kill all mages. I suspect if they did it really well and spent as much time rping as pking with said mages it might actually be rewarded. 

It felt to me like he just rolled a power combo and then later tried to make the rp fit as minimally as possible.

[Fool_Hardy]

Hornecka did NOT hate ALL mages.

@Unknown Criminal, could have been any of us to adopt that mindset for our character. Especially a chaotic neutral.

What I do not understand, could not make myself understand, is casting aside all your characters, and the hours you spend here over 5 little RP points.

You can get those back and more hanging out with me in a single evening.

Consider your anger, enslave your wrath, give thought to purpose, and bring purpose back to Aabahran.

Hoping to feel your presence return soon.