Perk question

[Manual Labour]

UC I think you are missing what others are saying.

Lucky perk does 2 things.

1) Gives you a better chance to maintain high luck

2) Directly affects things like dart game, tarot cards, and being hexed

Skills that take luck into consideration are based solely on your current luck value and have nothing to do with your perk.
So for example someone with the lucky perk could still have less luck than someone without the lucky perk at any given time.

Lucky is a great perk don't get me wrong, but it is not as consistent as some of the others.

[Lloth]

16 minutes ago, Unknown Criminal said:

I think you guys are missing what I'm saying... 

If there are 500 skills 'not spells' luck is probably called in 450 of them. 

When your luck fluctuates if you are 'lucky' it's more likely to go up than down.

Wearing + luck gear takes away from the better gear you could be wearing in those slots.

Two chars fighting, both have 100% skills, same hit dam, same armor, the one with better luck will win every time.

When luck calculations are done char vs char and both are lucky it's a wash, however, suffering from bad luck against a high luck opponent can be a 22 point chance differential for skills landing or missing. To put that into perspective, racial bonuses to skills and spells are usually a 5-10 point chance boost. An example of that would be halfling thieves who get a 5 point boost to plant and pry. 

Overall it's just the best perk, choosing it doesn't mean you win by any means, it just gives you the best case scenario to win at all times  

Actually, you only need to wear +Luck eq on the tick. So you don't actually need to sacrifice eq slots in any meaningful way. Especially as some of the best luck generation methods don't affect your rare counts, as they are common, light, and easy to obtain. 

Your numbers are also waaaaaaay off. Luck is not some pivotal bonus on any % chance based skill. Missing 2-3 Luck isn't an issue. In terms of affecting luck, the lucky perk is just the lazy option. 

To my knowledge, the difference between 17 luck and 21 luck is maybe 1-2% chance modifier on a skill. That's not as much of a buff to the chance to land it as, say, +3 hitroll on a dirt kick, or a bonus to profiency on skills like bash/bodyslam/second attack.

Also, a nimble melee against a lucky melee will have a statistically higher chance of winning, due to a 5% lag avoidance being an objectively higher chance to disrupt enemy battle flow than a 1-2% better chance, at best, to land skills.

Cherry picking your argument to exclude stat-giving perks (As you say, same EQ as well as same stats, and only 100% in skills) is a bad way to present a case. Congratulations, lucky has more impact on a lazy combatants success than what... miser?

[Unknown Criminal]

27 minutes ago, Manual Labour said:

1 hour ago, Manual Labour said:

UC I think you are missing what others are saying.

Lucky perk does 2 things.

1) Gives you a better chance to maintain high luck

2) Directly affects things like dart game, tarot cards, and being hexed

Skills that take luck into consideration are based solely on your current luck value and have nothing to do with your perk.
So for example someone with the lucky perk could still have less luck than someone without the lucky perk at any given time.

Lucky is a great perk don't get me wrong, but it is not as consistent as some of the others.

Correct AND incorrect. Having the lucky perk does the dart game, tarot cards and prevents hex. It also plays a part in your luck fluctuation, with the lucky perk your luck is more likely to go up than down.

I just opened the fight.c file and searched for luck, the first one I came accross was:

skill += (get_cur_stat(victim, STAT_LUCK) - (get_cur_stat(ch, STAT_LUCK)) * 5;

If victim and ch have the same luck it's a wash, 0 is added to the chance of the skill landing.

The luck differential is a double edged sword where for each point of difference 5 points are added to the chance of the skill firing off. 

25 to 24 luck is a 5 point swing.

25 to 23 is a 10 point swing.

25 to 20 is a 25 point swing.

When you type score and your luck is yellow 'with this particular skill' you are likely to suffer a 25 point deficit if an opponent uses it on you. 

So what seems better at this point in time, having a 101 skill prof in 'whatever' (which is a 1 point bonus) or the chance of higher luck at all times? 

Math doesn't exaggerate and that's what I'm "quoting", I'm not making anything up or trying to stir a pot but when people tell me I'm wrong when I'm quoting math it just makes me shake my head. 

No not every luck call in the game is the same. Yes there are other stat calls to determine if skills succeed or fail, high str vs low str is the same thing with parry where your more likely to succeed if your strong, however your even more likely to succeed if your luck is also high  

[Lloth]

Alright, keep thinking that. I've been trying to tell you in no uncertain terms that you're not right about this. You are way too insistent that you know better than somebody that's seen recent calculations on skills that involve a luck modifier - rather than old code that's far less applicable to the current game. I've lost interest in trying to give you more insight. 

[Dale]

Let's settle this.  What kind of warrior should I roll with the lucky perk?  I'll be pinned and decked in + LUCK gear in a week.  

[Manual Labour]

24 minutes ago, Unknown Criminal said:

Correct AND incorrect.

So where am I incorrect?

I never said luck doesn't affect skills landing.

What I said is that the luck factor that affects skills is based on your current luck value which can be improved by means other than the lucky perk.

The perk itself HELPS you be luckier overall but it does not guarantee that your luck will always be higher than that of your opponent, nor does the actual perk get factored anywhere in these rolls.

There is absolutely 0 difference in having max luck with and max luck without the lucky perk when considering skill interactions (outside of the limited specific situation in which lucky perk is considered)

So again, where am I incorrect?

[f0xx]

UC, I will say just this - you are wrong on so many points that it's not even funny. Just pointing them out, without explaining why you are actually wrong, will take me more than an hour.

Either way, feel free to ignore this opinion of mine, because I am just a noob and bug abuser.

[Unknown Criminal]

What's wrong with old code? The wheel is old code, addition is old code, gravity is old code, moms pizza sauce recipe is old code. If something's not broken then it doesn't need to be reinvented. If the luck system has changed since I was a coder back in the day then it changed, I'm just basing my statements on what used to be.  

Fact: the luck perk used to give someone the ability to have high luck more times than not.

Fact: the luck stat was incorporated into most skills and abilities.

Fact: having high luck gives you an edge against an equally skilled, dressed opponent of the same race and guild.

Some people don't realize that games are just numbers where if your number is high you get X MESSAGE, if your number is low you get Y MESSAGE. Some skills, stats and abilities give you a higher chance to see X MESSAGE. 

1 + 1 = 2 show good effect.

2 - 1 = 1 show bad effect.

[Manual Labour]

Dude are you thick in the head?

You don't NEED the lucky perk to have high luck.

How come you are not understanding this?

The debate about how much luck affects skills is irrelevant to how good the lucky perk is because there are other ways to get luck.

If it were the case that the lucky perk somehow counted for more in these equations it would be a different story, but that is not the case.

[Lloth]

I told you what's wrong with old cold. It is not accurate in today's version. So much has changed. Luck does not have the significant impact you are implying on any random chance skill I have seen the code for in the many years I have been on staff.

What's more, the lucky perk does not have any benefits other than increasing luck gain, other than in the aforementioned instances (darts, tarot, hex). It just gives you more innate luck gain. It doesn't make it any more likely that your luck will increase on a tick than having a bunch of luck items worn at the start of the tick. 

You can very easily reach the soft cap for luck gain without the lucky perk, without having to sacrifice permanent eq slots. Lucky simply makes it easier to be lazy in that regard.

[Magick]

6 hours ago, f0xx said:

It guarantees you slightly higher chance of getting better luck. It's basically +luck gear.

It gives you a +10 modifier to your percentage roll, which is anywhere from a 12.5% to a 25% increase depending on your current luck; a little more than slightly IMO.  The amount of change is affected as well, though on average, that difference should be relatively insignificant.

 

Without knowing exactly how +luck items affect your luck stat, I can't do more than speculate about the last half of that.

Of which:

1 hour ago, Lloth said:

Actually, you only need to wear +Luck eq on the tick. So you don't actually need to sacrifice eq slots in any meaningful way. Especially as some of the best luck generation methods don't affect your rare counts, as they are common, light, and easy to obtain. 

This implies that +luck equipment doesn't directly add to luck but instead to +luck modifier.  I was under the impression that it worked similar to +ATTRIBUTES where if you're wearing +5 luck, it would cap at 25^5, allowing you to shrug off -luck easier and not see the RNG change quite as much at or near cap.

Is that accurate and my original assumptions were incorrect?

[Celerity]

You have a chance to increase or decrease your luck every tick.

You can increase your chance for it to increase by wearing +luck equipment. The lucky perk is exactly the same as +luck equipment in this regard.

This is why @Lloth said it only matters to wear it on the tick. Luck equipment (and the lucky perk) does not give you more luck. They just give you a greater chance to increase luck every tick.

Everybody's luck stat cap is the same, regardless if they have +luck eq or the lucky perk. This means that a person with the lucky perk fighting another person with max luck has no advantage. The advantage for the lucky perk is that it is easier to get to max luck.

Therefore, the lucky perk's main perk can be gained through equipment. When comparing lucky to athletic, you are actually comparing which free stats you want: a couple pieces of +luck or +3 hit/dam. Same thing with stout (+50 hp), etc.

Is +3 hit/dam better than +50 HP? Hopefully you'll say, "It depends." That means we have some balance there.

The perks that give benefits to stats that have soft or hard caps lose some value when you can otherwise hit those caps. Such as the lucky or athletic perks. For stats that don't have caps (such as HP), the perk will always be gained. However, this is balanced because something like +50 HP gives no advantage at all until you get down to 50 HP.

This is why some people find the unobtainable perks (those that grant effects you CANNOT get in game without them) to be especially valuable. Such as the nimble perk. Or miser, or many others.

The perks could probably use another balancing pass, but they are still loads better than they used to be.

[Lloth]

27 minutes ago, Magick said:

Without knowing exactly how +luck items affect your luck stat, I can't do more than speculate about the last half of that.

Of which:

This implies that +luck equipment doesn't directly add to luck but instead to +luck modifier.  I was under the impression that it worked similar to +ATTRIBUTES where if you're wearing +5 luck, it would cap at 25^5, allowing you to shrug off -luck easier and not see the RNG change quite as much at or near cap.

Is that accurate and my original assumptions were incorrect?

To my understanding it goes like this:

The luck stat has 2 parts. Your luck score, which is the current value of your luck equation. It's a bit oversimplifying it, and the random range is just an example, but...

 

Luck = (Luck + (rand [--30 - ++30] + luck))

That is to say, at the start of a tick, your luck becomes itself, added to the sum a negative or positive integer in a predefined range plus your luck.

So if your current luck is 20, and you roll a -24 in the random check, it becomes

20 + (-24 + 20) = 16

 

Again, this is oversimplifying the equation, but I believe the main principle is exceedingly similar.

 

The luck cap being 25 means that if you have 25(^6) and roll a -11, it looks like 33 + -11. However, the maximum luck that can be applied to any roll remains 25.

Certainly explains how classes like bards, or anyone using a fate generator can max out their luck in a few ticks, and then be fine for several ticks of bad rolls before they drop below max luck.

@Erelei can probably tell you a whole lot better, or even laugh at how I got it wrong, if he wants to.

[Fool_Hardy]

This has been an enlightening thread.

I was once told that nimble would give me a better chance of fleeing than lucky, but high luck grants me a better chance of fleeing in a favorable direction.

So I have to ask, is this true or false?

 

 

[Unknown Criminal]

 

7 hours ago, Manual Labour said:

Dude are you thick in the head?

You don't NEED the lucky perk to have high luck.

How come you are not understanding this?

The debate about how much luck affects skills is irrelevant to how good the lucky perk is because there are other ways to get luck.

If it were the case that the lucky perk somehow counted for more in these equations it would be a different story, but that is not the case.

 I KNOW you don't need the perk to get good luck, IVE BEEN SAYING THAT WITH THE PERK YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF YOUR LUCK 'ALWAYS' BEING HIGH! 

Wow, try reading. 

7 hours ago, Lloth said:

I told you what's wrong with old cold. It is not accurate in today's version. So much has changed. Luck does not have the significant impact you are implying on any random chance skill I have seen the code for in the many years I have been on staff.

What's more, the lucky perk does not have any benefits other than increasing luck gain, other than in the aforementioned instances (darts, tarot, hex). It just gives you more innate luck gain. It doesn't make it any more likely that your luck will increase on a tick than having a bunch of luck items worn at the start of the tick. 

You can very easily reach the soft cap for luck gain without the lucky perk, without having to sacrifice permanent eq slots. Lucky simply makes it easier to be lazy in that regard.

Cool, i based my first reply on old code, thank you for being clear.

I do however think that being able to add + luck eq for a tick and then remove it while keeping the effect is a bug. I'd compare tim to wearing a crown of might over the tick, removing it and keeping the str bonus. Luck IS a stat like strength right? 

Anyhow, no matter to me, I'm just a forum guy these days.

[Lloth]

Luck is a stat, but it's not like strength. It fluctuates, for one. It's +'s and -'s aren't instant, or even consistent as it does fluctuate. I would say it is closer to hitgain.

[Zhurong]

Lets get to the fact that pious doesnt cut recall lag 50% like it says.

[Magick]

I haven't sat down with a stopwatch to verify, but I'm certain it does.

[f0xx]

7 hours ago, Zhurong said:

Lets get to the fact that pious doesnt cut recall lag 50% like it says.

Are you 100% sure it doesn't?

[Pali]

Personally, I've always sworn by having at least one piece of +luck eq for a character that doesn't have the Lucky perk, and I've survived a lot of nonsense by the skin of my teeth on those high-luck characters - bash lag fading at just the right time to flee and heal my paladins, firestorms exploding more regularly for invokers, etc.  I've got nothing approaching a statistically useful objective analysis, naturally, but I've got sufficient anecdotes that I always try to make sure to keep my luck high all the same as it has seemed to work well so far - and using one or two eq slots to do so isn't much of a sacrifice.  As @Celerity pointed out, it's just trading a few points here for a few points there.

 

@Manual Labour, @Unknown Criminal, can we please avoid the "thick in the head" and "try reading" comments?  You both often make good points worthy of discussion, and I'd rather they not be overshadowed by antagonism or frustration.

[Trick]

Am I the only one that doesn't pay attention to it? lol

The only +luck item I know about is the warped skull, I think lol.

[Magick]

I don't really notice either.  I just know there's a ton out there.  Taking a quick look through my notepad: Rod of Light, Obsidian Culet, Fate Generator.  Hell, those three alone are +12.  Add in a veil, sparkler and two ornate copper rings and you've got yourself +18 luck.

[Fool_Hardy]

bunny paws, four leaf clovers.

[egreir]

There's a meaning to luck?

[Trick]

2 hours ago, egreir said:

There's a meaning to luck?

Apparently..

I just get as much hit/dam as possible and hope my enemy dies before I do.. Seems to work out well for me, lol.