I am Lloth, Head Builder for Aabahran: The Forsaken Lands. AMA!

[Lloth]

As requested, this thread is to post your questions about building, OLC, and item/encounter balancing. Ask away, nerds.

As a note: I will only entertain questions that aren't veiled jabs, are related to the subject matter listed above, and are asked for the betterment of this player forum. If I do answer questions outside those margins, it is done at my leisure or discretion. I am a very transparent person, so expect reasonably long responses, in line with the depth of the questions. 

Not everyone is going to agree with every answer, and that's fine. Just try to stay open-minded and respectful of the opinions of others.

[aaa]

In my opinion mage builds lack diversity, it's always a mix of ac, hp and saves while melee and especially Hybrids have multiple different build options. 

What are your thoughts on introducing a new stat that increases spell damage. This would give mage players the option of going full glass cannon at the cost of ac. 

 

 

[Lloth]

There is a stat that increases spell damage: spell level. And the old folks remember those horrific days when it could be stacked higher.

 

That's more of a codebase thing, too.

[Magick]

Yeah.  A Savant invoker walking around with two Eye of Hakeashars and a fully charged staff to bring their total spelllvl to 57 was nuts.  I'd have to dig a bit I think, but I recall some affliction levels hitting 59.

Which is why spell level has a cap now and various former rings are worn on the face now.

The number of items with spell level (even aff/mal/etc level) should rightly be limited.  Though there was an item recently added with spell level on it.

 

There's currently what, a half dozen each of wands and staves used regularly, including the glimmering?  What are your thoughts to adding a few more higher leveled (40+) items around like the Wand of Wind and Wand of Frozen Mercury?  What balance issues would you foresee if a L45 wand of magic missile were added, or L40 wand of sear?

[Lloth]

Demon reaver/savant invoker in current and old eq, to simulate prior spell levels...

2 eyes, archdemon, any of the masks, sphere of annihilation, charged staff.... that would be level 60 casting.

[aaa]

Is there a plan to address Powercreep? 

Does the staff have an ideal statline? I've seen anume throw around 40 hit/dam previously but the reality is closer to 60/60 while having 40svsspell. It's my opinion that the game fundamentally falls apart at these levels, defenses and any non scaling abilities start to really show with today's stats. 

Is this a concern? The alternative is to continually balance the skills around these new numbers but I feel like this is a waste of resources when compared to toning down items. 

[Lloth]

I am currently crunching numbers on every item in the game. I will then work with the rest of the staff to address rebalancing stat gains.

 

I can say that there is a good deal of exaggeration there, though. 60/60 with 40 saves is an IMMACULATE set. That said, it probably results in them having like 175 AC.

[Magick]

6 hours ago, Lloth said:

... every item in the game.

Holy hell, that's a Herculean task.  Fortunately collecting the info is relatively straight forward (set up a trigger and let it run), and this is sorely needed, but that doesn't make it any less small.  You have my condolences.

[Lloth]

Heh. I mostly connect from my phone. Can't even make use of that kind of trigger.

[Magick]

[Lloth]

That's right. When I RP circles around you... it's on a phone. Boom.

Also when I PK you.

[Magick]

Typing in slay magick;!;!;!;! isn't PK.  

[Lloth]

It is too. Shows up on my record. /flex

[aaa]

Thoughts on adding a legitimate cursed one handed staff for mages?

[Lloth]

There will be one in the future

[Tantangel]

Is there any thoughts of adding in a skillforge set of items in the game now that we have seen so many introductions of the spellforge system?

[Lloth]

Nope. We dont want mages with dirt kick, bash, trip, enhanced damage, third attack, or an extra defense, even at low proficiency. 

[Tantangel]

I wasn't thinking in those senses since you could play a Blademaster with dirt kick with a class that's already pretty strong. I was thinking more along the lines of some of the more non PK boost that would directly affect the character like haggle or even lore. I wouldn't even want any of those as a mage in most cases since many of the ones I have played are weak in terms of offensive output, but I could see other players wanting to boost a Fire Cleric or something similar.

[Lloth]

That would still be more a function of Erelei's corner. OLC has to work within the framework we already have. And while there are a few roundabout ways to do combat skills in OLC, there's not really a way to do no ncombat skills without having them in an update_always type situation, which causes more problems than it's worth. 

[Celerity]

On 11/21/2017 at 10:15 PM, Lloth said:

I am currently crunching numbers on every item in the game. I will then work with the rest of the staff to address rebalancing stat gains.

 

I can say that there is a good deal of exaggeration there, though. 60/60 with 40 saves is an IMMACULATE set. That said, it probably results in them having like 175 AC.

What do you mean by crunching numbers? How are you doing this?

[Lloth]

Step 1: get a full item and possible buff listing

Step 2: compile maximums of all bonus stats

Step 3: compare to median base stats for each race

Step 4: gauge difficulty in obtaining

Step 5: gauge rarity

Step 6: compile average boosts to each stat by rarity and slot

Step 7: determine value per stat and how they compare (how does 1 hitroll compare to 10 hp, etc)

Step 8: apply boosts and nerfs to items that exceed an acceptable threshold based on all of the above.

Step 9: test vigorously among the build team.

Step 10: release updates for public 

Step 11: tweak as needed 

[Celerity]

As you probably know, I've done something very similar to step 7 (including actually appraising the value of items, which is only implied in your step list).

For example, assigning a point value that 10 hp = 1 point, 20 mana = 1 point, etc.  This is very good for guesstimating or spot-checking certain pieces of equipment, but I'm sure you've run into trouble on the larger scale because this item-centric approach assumes that the player is a static, neutral state.

10 hp means very different things to different classes, different races among classes, and sometimes even cabals among classes and races. This variation can be upwards of 50% which makes it very problematic to 'balance' to this kind of valuation. A warrior deals with HP differently than a cleric, an ogre warrior differently from a feral warrior, and a knight ogre warrior from a syndicate feral warrior. This is not even accounting for the equipment slot distribution.

To account for all of this, you have to map out the effects per race, and then by race/class, race/class/cabal, and finally by race/class/cabal/slot. By then, your valuations are going to be swinging even more crazily and you are hampered by the fact that this balance is not static, but every change will cause you to go back and readjust again. In the the end, your balance is likely very inaccurate and out of date even before implementation.

In the past, I briefly thought about how to solve this problem. You map out your 'balance archetypes', likely the popular builds you see in action today. Examine their stats (buffs + equipment) in actual play and you'll get a close idea of what is used in practice rather than just theory. Then you have the task of getting the stats to where you want them to be based on this information.

Inevitably, this leads to some pre-defined 'stat block' that is tied to a corresponding 'capabilities block'. That is, my x stats allow me to do y thing to z person's stats or abilities with some % probability. This doesn't even account for availability or usability, so even this isn't that accurate.  You end up doing this to every ability. Although after doing this awhile, you'll find that equipment isn't necessarily the best way to balance things out.

Some classes can easily 'have it all' through equipment -- this is a class issue, and playing with equipment will obviously have a greater effect on 'equipment-dependent' classes. Not all ability combinations are balanced with stats, much less those varied greatly by equipment.

This has led me to believe there is no solution to equipment balancing through straight equipment stat adjustments. The only way to generally balance equipment in our system is first to balance how combinations (i.e. stat blocks + ability combinations) interact with equipment rather than the equipment itself.

So reasonably, looking at equipment balance has always naturally pushed me instead to look at combination balance instead. That is why I'm in favor of a greater impact on class/race/cabal skills and less emphasis on equipment. You'll have a lot better balance and a lot easier time getting there.

Builds don't need to be rigid either, you can swap abilities just like equipment if you wanted, but those would be much more tightly restricted to be balanced to the specific build, again resulting in better balance. You can do the same thing with equipment of course, but you'll end up just as tightly restricted if you want balance. If this scares you, think about how we already are mostly there because even if you have 10,000 items in your game world, only a small percentage are viable options...most of the rest being fluff or intermediary steps.

The problem that remains is that those useful items are not, and can not, be well-balanced for general use because of the implementation of equipment is too widely distributed to have an effect on too wide of a distribution of stats. Balance can not exist because of contradictory elements. What is balanced for x and y is not for z. Except you have hundreds of such variables to deal with that also have an effect on each other.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Celerity

[Lloth]

We can exclude races and classes from equipment, which allows us some flexibility in balancing EQ around classes.

This endeavor is specifically geared towards powercreep of items, not class balancing.

I am skewing the results of stat values towards those most interested in those stats. What is 1 hitroll to a warrior, vs what is 10 hp to, say, an invoker or cleric. Not what is 1 hitroll to a warrior, vs what is 10 hp to a warrior.

This endeavor will inevitably result in item selection broadening based on build and desire. No more items that are objectively better than all other items of their type. While scale of rarity and difficulty to obtain will still play a part, the inability to farm an adeptus suit, for example, can be played around by grabbing some equipment from the demon pits, winter, and desolation. No more items with the same stats. No more items specifically designed towards one class and build design (looking at you, lightblade). 

Class balance is not a matter of OLC. That rests in coding, and this is not intended to try to change that. I simply want to fix a decade or two of every builder wanting their stuff to be better and shinier than every previous builder's. As well, it will allow some of our more advanced OLC capabilities, which did not exist even 5 - 10 years ago, to expand towards older items.

What we will get in return is greater diversity, better equipment design, a better stat coverage, and a reverse on powercreep. It's a monumental amount of work, sure, but it's what this game needs.

[Tantangel]

 If you have not gotten to it yet yourself, look at the plated neckguard from the Arena vs. the spiked collar from the High Tower. You can gain the neckguard from the Arena very quickly even at level 20, but the cat can be a pain in the ass for any non-good aligned character even at that point. The Arena piece is far better than the collar in terms of armor rating and pretty much matches everything else spot on. Is there any plans on updating the High Tower anytime soon, and what is an area  that would be considered the highest of priorities revamping?

[Lloth]

We are going to be looking at all items. 

As for high tower itself, it is not currently on my list. I have half a dozen other projects that need more attention.