Bards and Songs

[Erelei]

Rolling Bard Changes - there are still changes to come with maintain and build - a huge overhaul in the materials table, and how maintain works with different materials (rare instruments, etc). This will be done in the coming weeks.

Maintain:

• Reduced possible maintains from 4 to 3.

Refrain:

• Song "four seasons" can no longer be refrained.

Bardic Master/Expert/Student:

• The blindness spell can no longer be avoided.

Dissonance:

• This skill once again damages the instrument being used.

Third Attack:

• Removed.

Songs:

• Lullaby chance greatly improved.
• Rhapsody of Delusion affect hinders opponents further.
• Carol of Lethargy greatly improved.
• Arduous Regret greatly improved.
• Tranquil Ballad greatly improved.
• Lamented Tears greatly improved.
• Echoed Voices tremendously improved.

 

[Fool_Hardy]

Since I could not put all three above. Ouch! Wow! and, I like it.. Might love it, we will see.

[Trick]

Hope a bard never has to fight a caster lol. Lost third attack, damage spell, half a round of lag, and instruments are weaker while not one song does anything to a caster... good luck!! Lol

[Dale]

As the player of a very well known and powerful bard, I welcome the challenge.

 

 

J/k I don't play bards.  

[Fool_Hardy]

I average - 30 spell, and can alter weapon for additional -30 to any given spell path. Bards vs Caster will be just fine.

[Fool_Hardy]

Additional thoughts.

Change leviathan's passing. Increase the length of time the springs exists, or decrease the lag associated with this song. Highly frustrating.

Reverberence will now be the only refrain able song now, which makes it a skill that raises the functionality of a spell, perhaps separate them by level. Move refrain to level 40.

When you approach the materials. Add emeralds/dogwood (4), bdellium/poplar (2), and turquoise/spruce (3).  (material level)

Let one material cure diseases, one detect invis, and one vampiric touch. I was so depressed that neither blood wood or blood stone added this wprog.

Edit: New songs could provide some of this too... I will post some on prayer this weekend for you.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Fool_Hardy

[Trick]

It'll be interesting to see how this affects bards. All of this together is a pretty big hit.

Losing third attack AND not being able to refrain four seasons is a HUGE hit the output. That, plus scaling down the instrument is gonna add  up pretty quick.

The majority of bard "mals" lean on the side of removing information from the opponent. Not being able to see your stats via lamented tears is nice, but not being able to see the number doesn't directly affect how the rounds are going, it just means the person has to pay attention to the verb and not a number.  Its not going to "add up" like poison/plague do.

2 hours ago, Fool_Hardy said:

I average - 30 spell, and can alter weapon for additional -30 to any given spell path. Bards vs Caster will be just fine.

I doubt that will be the case when materials are adjusted. Bards don't have songs that directly affect combat against a caster.. Removing information doesn't mean anything if you're eating call lightnings back to back. It just doesn't matter.

Refrain is worthless now. The only song worth refraining is now gone. I think Rememberance is the only refrain-able song now. And what good does that do me? In case the one time I fight a Temporum his age spell manages to hit a song by random luck...? C'mon.

Also, bards don't have single-target damage abilities.. Every song is an AoE. That means you sit next to a mob and I can no longer sing any of my "mal" songs. I have to stand there and hope that my now nerfed damage is going to be enough.

I am 100% in favor of balancing/toning a bard. But when you keep piling on different toning ideas, it starts to add up and then you're left with a class that can't really compete anymore. Third attack and four seasons is big. I'd argue to just do one OR the other..

It all adds up pretty quick.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Fireman

[aaa]

I would of liked to see them lose fired weapons over third attack. 

Give them back their throw for single target. 

[Manual Labour]

I think the problem is how much survivability they have, on top of rogue tactics, on top of damage output.

They could do too many things too well. Add in cabal powers and cabal pets and they become pretty massive wrecking machines.

Hitting them in the burst + sustained damage area definitely weakens then, but I feel like they will still be viable only they will have to adjust their tactics.

They can still out sustain almost any other class and have access to some of the most badass weaponry around (even with the maintain nerf).

[Archbishop Monk]

The serious trouble I see with changing bards these ways has mainly to do with races.  One of the most sure-fire tactics against a bard is lag lock them.  I find it no surprise that I have seen more

avian/nimble bards out there than anything else.  What about the faerie bards?  The bardic mastery helps against major lag, but seriously, they are tiny sized.  An enlarged giant could bash and then

miss a bash and still keep them lag-locked.  No refrained four seasons and that means you could possibly be sitting there four rounds with only dealing two attacks per round.  Pray you get off

a paralyze or something similar to stop the laglocked, or at least slow it down.

 

Then again, I am all in favor of the increase to spell level and buffed songs.  I like that songs may actually play a better part of their success rate.  Carol of Lethargy all the melee, Echoed all of them too

and if the boost is enough, it will aid that livability of the little bards.

[Dale]

You could say the same thing about every other race.  What you explained actually is exactly how Kotrag died to my understanding.  And rogue would have the same outcome.  Lag lock a thief he cant do anything, ninja the same.  It's all about using the weapons you have and trying to do well.  These aren't final changes from how it sounds so play around with it.  Please don't make me roll a bard.  I'll name it Dale.

[Archbishop Monk]

Lol, yes, but as you mentioned the other classes are rogue classes and they have one main, HUGE, thing against lag lock:  Hide.  The ability to pick when and where they fight.  In comparing them to rogues and their attrition style, you pretty much just pointed out what I found as a flaw in smaller race bards.  No ability to hide = you have to run or stay perpetually prepared for a fight always.

If bards are going to play as a rogue class type, then give them a limited ability to do something similar to hide.  If they are going to be a mix of mystical and rogue, then give them abilities to be defensive enough to pull off that type of play-style.  If they are going to be an attrition type of class, like any attrition class, they need the ability to sustain.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Archbishop Monk

[Anume]

You forget instrument pugil. So it won't be 2 attacks, it will be 2-4.

[Archbishop Monk]

Since when do bards get pugil?  Unless you are talking about brawl or there is something new I haven't known about since I last played a bard.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Archbishop Monk

[Celerity]

I'd advise caution on this one.

Everybody understands what was taken away. That is very clear.

The improvement side isn't so clear as we only know generally that certain abilities were improved.

Do these nerfs and improvements end in a net gain or loss for the class? No player really knows at this point since we only have half the story. We can't make a good judgment about bard balance with this current information.

So all you can really do is try the new stuff out or wait and see others do it. Give it a chance.

If this ends up being too much of a nerf, I'm sure they'll swing it back the other way eventually.

Personally, I'm happy to see a shift away from pure damage in bards.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Celerity

[Fool_Hardy]

43 minutes ago, Anume said:

You forget instrument pugil. So it won't be 2 attacks, it will be 2-4.

Did you turn this back on? Pugil was removed. Did not see it in this log.

It does not matter much.  And I know this class pretty well. 

[Dale]

I want to say that I in no way have any strong feelings about the bard changes and what I am about to post really doesn't say anything either because it is from 2015 but I wanted to show people what I've seen bards capable of.  

Darion: [===|===|===|---]

 

<1584hp 510m 473mv> 

 

Darion strikes a sweet melody on a red diamond saxophone.

 

Darion sings 'Bleed, no more, these wounds to heal,'

 

Darion sings 'Learn to know, this pain, I feel,'

 

Darion sings 'When this blood, is crust, and dried,'

 

Darion sings 'I shall get up, again, and ride!'

 

The song's melody soothes your wounds.

 

A kelp farmer's slash LACERATES Darion!

 

A kelp farmer tries to disarm Darion, but fails.

 

Darion's wallop *** DEMOLISHES *** a kelp farmer!

 

Darion's wallop MANGLES a kelp farmer!

 

Darion's wallop *** OBLITERATES *** a kelp farmer!

 

Darion's wallop *** OBLITERATES *** a kelp farmer!

 

Your rays MANGLE a kelp farmer!

 

A kelp farmer dodges your attack.

 

Your rays MANGLE a kelp farmer!

 

A kelp farmer dodges your attack.

 

Iznasilvach's slash mauls a kelp farmer.

 

Iznasilvach's shocking bite devastates a kelp farmer!

 

Iznasilvach's shocking bite misses a kelp farmer.

 

Iznasilvach's shocking bite maims a kelp farmer!

 

A kelp farmer is in awful condition. 

 

 

 

Darion: [===|===|===|---]

 

<1584hp 510m 473mv> sc

 

 

 

/----------------\/----------------------------------------------\

 

| Vander         ||  the Knight of Fury                          |

 

\----------------/\----------------------------------------------/

 

| Str: 23(25)^9  || Level: 50 Sex: M      Age  : 15(96h)         |

 

| Int: 15(15)    || Class: berserker      Ethos: chaotic         |

 

| Wis: 15(15)^2  || Race : fire           Align: evil            |

 

| Dex: 16(16)^2  || Hp   : 1584/1584      Exp  : 17782/500218    |

 

| Con: 23(23)    || Mana :  510/511                              |

 

\ Lck: [|||||-]  \/ Move :  473/477       +Hit: 70   +Dam: 76    /

 

/----------------/\------------------/\--------------------------\

 

|     ARMOR      ||      SAVES       || Deity : Anume            |

 

| Slash :  -272  || Spell      : -14 || Faith : Scourge          |

 

| Pierce:  -273  || Afflictive :  0  || Weight: 354/625          |

 

| Blunt :  -255  || Maledictive: -9  || Items : 30/35            |

 

| Magic :  -238  || Mental     : -10 || Prac  : 3     Train: 0   |

 

|                || Breath     :  0  || RP    : 30               |

 

|                ||                  || Gold  : 140K             |

 

\----------------\/------------------\/--------------------------/

 

/ Condition: You are in the prime of your health.                \

 

| You have 6 days left to submit a cabal application.        |

 

| [NEXUS] forces are aiding your violent instincts.              |

 

\----------------------------------------------------------------/

 

A kelp farmer is in awful condition. 

 

 

 

Darion: [===|===|===|---]

 

<1584hp 510m 473mv> 

 

A Gigantic Crab's claw MUTILATES a kelp farmer!

 

Darion's wallop *** OBLITERATES *** a kelp farmer!

 

Darion's wallop *** DEMOLISHES *** a kelp farmer!

 

Your rays *** DEMOLISH *** a kelp farmer!

 

A kelp farmer is DEAD!!

 

You receive 1776 experience points.

 

You snap out of your madness at the death of your opponent.

 

You hear a kelp farmer's death cry.

 

 

This was before Vander was NEXUS but I can say that I remember hunting with that same guy when I dualed avg 30 fire axes and I had to rage to just keep up with his damage.  If bards are still capable of that output then 2 attacks a round is okay in my book.  And that's without any songs new or otherwise.

[Zhurong]

did they lose steal yet?

[aaa]

Wallop is the wood vuln and kelp farmers are storm Giants. @Dale

[Zhurong]

39 minutes ago, Wade said:

Wallop is the wood vuln and kelp farmers are storm Giants. @Dale

wood vuln or not, they were hitting harder than raged berserkers.

[Celerity]

44 minutes ago, Wade said:

Wallop is the wood vuln and kelp farmers are storm Giants.

Wallop hits the wood vuln? I was under the impression that wood is a material vuln only.

Material vulns (silver, mithril, iron, wood, etc.) are only exploitable through edges.

What if I walloped you with a steel warhammer? If anything, wallop should be simple physical bash damage, to which kelp farmers are actually resistant.

Thorns, being about as close as you can get to explicitly wood, does not hit the wood vuln.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Celerity

[Trick]

Bards can make an instrument that does wood damage. Though, I would have made a black opal instrument rather than that though.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Fireman

[aaa]

I only mean the wood vuln bard weapon does wallop. 

[Dale]

I know what it is, they can make a lot of different vulns and hit everyone harder than a FG zerk wielding a solar grasp.   At least 2 years ago and I don't know how much damage has changed since then,  

[aaa]

I getcha, but what I'm saying is the comparison isn't fair because he's hitting the vuln and you weren't. 

I say this as someone who agrees with you but as a man of science, your point in this scenario is moot.