Bards and Songs

[Dale]

Let me step back, you are actually right Wade, what needs to be looked at is the instruments ability to hit vulns at all?  How does wood have a sound?  Or any element to the extent that it would be a weakness.  But then Bards would be too weak.  I still think a balance lies there somewhere and I'm actually interested to see where these changes lead.  As stated my post wasn't meant to steer this post but merely be something like where they started at right after the initial changes.

[Fool_Hardy]

Many woods have greater damage against Storm Giants. It just happens that way, not sure if that was intended or not.

Some instruments attacks read as noise. For example depressing melody, scratching nails, ect. (many vulns can come from noise)

Some instruments attacks read as if the instrument is being swung/wielded like a weapon. I.e. Wallop, Fiery/Watery Slash, ect. (many vulns can come from melee)

Bards have been on the wrong side of the power line for a long time. Played by a decent PKer it becomes obvious,. Heck I win with them, and that should be a clue.

These changes weaken the class some and promotes the under used (because much of it fails) castor side of the class,  all without destroying the concept of the class.

 

[Tantangel]

Maybe I need more time in assessing the changes to  no third attack, but from what I saw on a Bard I had forever ago is that while wielding an instrument I only got 1 attack a round and occasionally two and I know I had mastered attacks prior to that. I'm not really against changes to the class since they're entirely too strong prior to it, but perhaps it's just because they were an Elf was why they were getting 1 attack a round for about 65% of rounds or so. As far as the rest of the changes go, it almost makes me want to play a new one again, as the boost to their songs seem interesting to try out again.

[Trick]

Songs still fail pretty consistently and at 75mana a pop and two rounds of lag for each attempt on some its  a tough sell.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Fireman

[f0xx]

Storm giants aren't supposed to have a wood vuln that's hittable with a weapon. Just like elves and drow.

I am not sure if that's wood damage or mental though. 

*shrug*

Bards were badly reworked to begin with. They were just made into a different melee class. This is a good step in the right direction IMO, and again IMO, more steps will be needed for them to be balanced. There are some very skilled bard players, I hope the staff works with them in order to set them on the right path.

[Anume]

They pugil with instruments, they do not have the skill pugil, which is for staffs.

[Fool_Hardy]

I have not seen more then three attempted strikes with a bard in months maybe a year.

Brawl will add a fourth in a city, and murder rounds will "appear" to pugil. But with all do respect. I have not SEEN my instrument pugil in forever.

Edit:  I have half a dozen bards currently running around, most of them pinned. I do not even pugil when others are tanking. I know you know who I play. I hope you trust me on this.

Level 50 bard vs orc warrior, will not see three attacks a round outside murder rounds without third attack. Bard has rank advantage, no town means brawl will not kick in,  no pugil means the attacks will be static. 2 or less. Give it a test.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Fool_Hardy

[Fool_Hardy]

I know this change seems harsh, but I believe @f0xx is right in that this tone down is required to balance them.

Refreain Reverberate (unavoidable)

Boomstick Damage (avoidable)

Instrument (avoidable)

Instrument (avoidable)

Instrument (avoidable) *

Instrument (if brawl, avoidable) *

Wprog (unavoidable) *

Wprog (unavoidable) *

Wprog (unavoidable) *

Return of Refrain (unavoidable) *

Pet attacks (?????) *

All this with - 700 AC. -50 Saves. ( * = best case scenarios such as are common to those who go seeking them)

[Trick]

Reverberate refrain is a hit/wound, so I really wouldn't be too concerned about it.

Also, every damaging ability a bard has is AoE. Every song is an AoE, dissonance, and reverberate are all AoE's. Stand next to mobs and a bard can't/won't sing their AoEs unless they want to aggro everything. The songs remove information, but if you are losing the rounds its not gonna help you win. You can't classify them as a "mal/rogue" class if the mals don't add up to damage or wear and tear over time like plague, poison, dysentary do.

Dissonance lag is .5-1 round of lag to your opponent and two rounds to you and damages your weapon. That's four(4!) uses before your weapon is toast. Its not an effective trade off.

Stand next to mobs and a bard can't/won't sing their AoEs unless they want to aggro everything.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Fireman

[Lloth]

There are better choices for refrain, anyway.

[Trick]

46 minutes ago, Lloth said:

There are better choices for refrain, anyway.

 

Quote

refrain carol
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain chorus
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain rest
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain rhap
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain lament
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain echoed
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain remem
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain four
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain batt
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain lull
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain ard
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain tranq
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain elegy
This song cannot be refrained.

refrain divert
This song cannot be refrained.

ref totem
This song cannot be refrained.

 

Reverberate it is!

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Fireman

[f0xx]

15 minutes ago, Lloth said:

There are better choices for refrain, anyway.

Teach the noob @Lloth.

[Trick]

1 minute ago, f0xx said:

Teach the noob @Lloth.

Nice tat bro.. oh wait..

[f0xx]

That's getting old bruh...

[Lloth]

Correction: there was. It seems a suggestion of mine went through in my absence. You used to be able to refrain four seasons as a way to initiate combat. You would immediately start singing it, combat would start because it actually uses the song when you refrain. Then, because you were in battle, it would auto-sing it because refrain didn't actually check if you were able to be singing a song before firing off, bypassing the limitation of 4 seasons. 8 spells for one round of lag. 

 

This was obviously horribly OP so I suggested the change some time ago. Glad to see it made it in. Even if it means being initially wrong. 

[Trick]

14 minutes ago, Lloth said:

Correction: there was. It seems a suggestion of mine went through in my absence. You used to be able to refrain four seasons as a way to initiate combat. You would immediately start singing it, combat would start because it actually uses the song when you refrain. Then, because you were in battle, it would auto-sing it because refrain didn't actually check if you were able to be singing a song before firing off, bypassing the limitation of 4 seasons. 8 spells for one round of lag. 

 

This was obviously horribly OP so I suggested the change some time ago. Glad to see it made it in. Even if it means being initially wrong. 

Right. That was the only PK value to refrain and since it has been removed there’s no point in using refrain anymore.

My point is, I’m not going to lag myself and cost myself mana to get a hit and a wound in PK from refraining the only song you can refrain now which is reverberate.

Four seasons change plus third attack change is a big hit to the damage output. And once the maintain change goes in that’s another huge hit to bard’s damage output.

I agree that bard damage is too much right now, but I think instead of nerfing every area of damage, you need to tone it slowly. Third attack and maintain and leave four seasons alone or maintain and four seasons, but not all three.

Remember, bards don’t have single target damage. So if you nerf their round damage then that’s ALL their damage.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Fireman

[Fool_Hardy]

Since dissonance destroys the instrument, and we now only get three maintains, can we look into this.

<blemished> a (glowing) (humming) red diamond xylophone

maintain red red

You completely repair a red diamond xylophone.

Maintain should repair if the maintains are full and the material used matches the base material.

[mya]

I think bards having more interesting songs is a positive thing, as is they moving from Meele OP to more hybrid gameplay.

But although the some of the new songs are very original they are anti-play in my view.

The hiding of HP is completely unforgiving. Yes we can use Report, but still this is a critical information missing. Once you get this on you, there is no point continuing combat, unless you are already clearly wining. There isn't also a way to check your moves.

The song "Veil of Darkness" is interesting but it needs to be made in line with "Veil of Darkness" saving. There was a reason maledictions were casted at L47. Also needs, to take into consideration brief description mode.

I also deslike the no affliction check. I hate how that Quest sleep doesn't allows you to check afflictions. We don't even have a way to check this stuff duration.

With bards landing these the best move is to not play and avoid combat. At least when they were meele powerhouses, there never was a reason to not engage them.

If you guys want some ideas, It's in my opinion better to have actions have a penalty/cost than to prevent that action. Look at damage on move. You can move, but you will take damage. DK Magic strike, you can bash me, but you will get casted with something nasty.

[Kyzarius]

Hah mya is all.."i hate those spells!"

[Zhurong]

I still think bard songs should fall under saves vs spell, afflic, mental and mal. Not using their own slot of breath.

[Dale]

Hold on.  Songs can be saved?

[Zhurong]

They can, but the breath save items arent really good and the breath saves arent on any useful items. Just be easier to convert them into an already used category and work the system out from there.

[Kyzarius]

Well your spell saves and breath saves combine just like any other i believe.

[Trick]

And a lot of items have breath saves. Items that didn’t have any were upgraded to give them.

Also, why should you be able to be prepped for anyone..? A shaman is around? Get mal. A bard? Get breath.

[Zhurong]

I've gone through an array of equipment without seeing any decent stackable breath saves. Bards can already be very tough to battle depending on your class.

Instruments with a WIDE variety of amazing stats, buffs and procs.

Steal. I dont think they get peek, but god forbid you fight a warrior who you know has that pretty glimmering staff.

Fired weapons.

Any cabals or items that can provide pets (stone golem, charm, blood guard, vanguard, etc.) get quite a bit of buffs

 

On top of this, what is your biggest drawback as a bard? AoE songs. Pretty much it. If and when your songs land, majority of your opponents can be screwed due to the effects, especially if battling where brawl can be activated.