Bards and Songs

[Fool_Hardy]

Save vs Breath 100% with gag/silence/thunderclap.

Eliminate weapon problems with dirt/blind/flashfire.

^^ This is how those who kill my bards succeed. ^^

Just saying. Do what works.

Edit: Forgot, call lightning, 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Fool_Hardy

[Trick]

Valek, out of curiosity, what bards did you play?

[f0xx]

19 minutes ago, Fool_Hardy said:

^^ This is how those who kill my bards succeed. ^^

Hehehehe

[Fool_Hardy]

Valek's back? And did not contact me?

Blasphemy.

[Trick]

Okay..

Fool Hardy, out of curiosity, what bards have you played?

[Fool_Hardy]

That's a long list of mixed characters @Fireman. Many of which are still current. 

The bard rework left a lot of room for research, and tics and hash marks are kind of my favorite thing.

Always looking at how things work in game. How fast is this as compared to that, does this skill go off more often/work in a better way if that skill already landed, ect.

Example: Dirt/disarm with melees, the two skills work together for the ultimate outcome. Bards have dirt/disarm, but have other symmetries as well.

Likely will continue playing bards until the changes are complete. Just so the last three years of data collected does not become misinformation.

+ spell level may need looked into still, as it seems to stack, and I am not sure that was intended.

If, I am correct in thinking that a certain repertoire grants + spell level, and a certain race grants + spell level. The numbers I am seeing suggest that this is the case.

 

[mya]

18 hours ago, Fireman said:

Also, why should you be able to be prepped for anyone..? A shaman is around? Get mal. A bard? Get breath.

Regarding song saving, bards have two things going for them:
+3 spell levels acording to Morl.
a unique spell saving class just for them that is a lot harder to cover.
This makes their spells land a lot better.

This wouldn't be a problem if the spells were minor. Like Blademasters criticals. You don't save, but they are short in duration.
The no_HP_info last forever. And when it lands it completely kills PK for the affected.

One of the strenghts of DKs/BMGs is having spells covering all 3 main spell saves types. Over specialize and once you face someone who has like 70 breath + spell saves you are toothless.

Also @Fireman, I though your approach to saves was to wear none and stack HR/DR.

In my opinion, the hiding of the hp/mana /moves would be a lot better as a skill. With a cool down.
Like you type "entrace HP" and your oponent would lose info on just his HP for 0 hours, while the bard got an entrance HP cooldown for 1 hour. You could still use the skill but no longer for HP, only for mana/moves. And when you use the other ones, you (bard) get a cool down for those of 1 hour, while he gets affected by 0 hours. This could lead to a very intersting interactions when people flee on "entrace HP" and then return and then lose other stuff.

Hell, even better, the bard sing the HP song and is affects during 2 hours by an autocasting effect that silently each round tried to cast it on oponent. It would checks saves, and if lands, oponent gets 0 h of no_HP_info with a 1 hour cooldown to prevent imediate reapply (like sleep).
This creates a interesting dinamic, of hit/run on tic insted of killing PK for 5 min. Vibrant PK, not boredom.

Edited December 6, 2017 by mya
Best Engrish eva!!!

[Dale]

Bards to have peek.  Steal would be almost useless without it.

And I've gathered -30 svspell and -30 spell and never seen a bard song fail.  

I hate to be saying things like this because I really haven't fought one enough in a while to have a stable opinion.  But I did want to say that there is a great amount of breath saves out there, just don't expect to get your hands on some of them in a pinch as they are very rare items.  

I know of three off the top of my head that all give -5 or higher but they are all unique and one is from a lockbox.

 

Out of curiosity Balinor what bards did you play?

[Lloth]

Having played one semi-recently, I can tell you it's not that easy to land songs. 3 spell level will help, but let's not pretend it will overpower them. Especially after refrain got slammed in usability.

As for hiding hp... it doesn't do much. Vets can see their damage taken each round and estimate. You can also tell when you're out-damaging them, and vice-versa, courtesy of the damage verbs.

My last bard, at 50, ran through all of its mana 3 times over against a basic blackwatch mob for Carol of Lethargy. To put a number to that... 2500ish mana for one song against a mob with VERY low saves and a massive level disadvantage. 

Many songs were like that. The more powerful songs, and even their vogues, could be easily saved against. 

The goal here is to make them fully hybrid, not strong melee with optional spells.

[Trick]

In my opinion, and this is just MY OPINION...

If we want bards to be a class dedicated to "malling" up their opponent with their songs and finishing with melee then a few things need to happen...

First off, the songs aren't "mals". They don't poison, plague, dysentary, or do anything that harms the opponent OUTSIDE of combat. Calling Rhapsody of Delusion and Lamented Tears(Veil and hide stat songs) mals is a stretch. Mals affect you over the course of the encounter when not in direct combat. That's not what a bard has currently. I propose the songs are adjusted to be a sequence of debuffs that as you land them your melee damage increases. You land Rhapsody of Delusion, your damage jumps a bit. You land Lamented Tears, your damage jumps a bit. You land Arduous Regret, your damage is at its highest point and you will see the big scary damage that we all know bards capable of currently.

By this I mean if you want to have the damage output that bards are so feared for then you need to land songs X, Y, Z and you will be able to hit those numbers.

Secondly, bard instruments. Bard instruments can hit every single vulnerability and even some types of vulns that weren't mean't to translate into weapon damage(IE: Wood). The tough part of this is that bards are limited to using these weapons. That's all they got. If they don't have the ability to hit vulns, in SOME way, then they are left without a way to compete against races that were designed to have vulns due to their inherit strengths.

My suggestion for weapons is again, song based. Landing a song that creates a vulnerability on an opponent is a huge opportunity to balance the weaponry without having to redo the entire materials list. If I land X song on an opponent, then that opponent will have a vulnerability to instrument damage for a certain amount of hours. Landing that song could, COULD, be the difference in a fight. Doing it this way allows the fight to become more organic and fluid instead of just quick attack on the target with haste and maxed out instruments. Allow it to be refrainable to increase the opportunity that it lands.

EDIT: Plus, this would work GREAT with current vogues. I won't go into the strategy of it, but each of the vogues gives a very unique advantage to this style of bard play.

 

That's just my thoughts though.
 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Fireman

[Manual Labour]

Aren't bards supposed to be jacks of all trades and masters of none? (at least in their original concept)

I don't like the class at all, neither the old or new, I feel like the old ones were kinda useless and the new ones came out of the gate massively OP.

They did too much too well, while also having a repertoire of pointless abilities and songs.

In my opinion they should be more of a support class with extra RP tools, but I get that any class that cant currently solo the game is unfavorable.

I know this is a negative post because I am bashing them without offering any constructive solutions.

I guess I don't like the balance of their own paths nor their balance against other classes (particularly needing a new and unique form of saves just for them), but I also don't care enough to spend time thinking about how to improve them.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Manual Labour

[Trick]

6 minutes ago, Manual Labour said:

Aren't bards supposed to be jacks of all trades and masters of none? (at least in their original concept)

I don't like the class at all, neither the old or new, I feel like the old ones were kinda useless and the new ones came out of the gate massively OP.

They did too much too well, while also having a repertoire of pointless abilities and songs.

In my opinion they should be more of a support class with extra RP tools, but I get that any class that cant currently solo the game is unfavorable.

I know this is a negative post because I am bashing them without offering any constructive solutions.

I guess I don't like the balance of their own paths nor their balance against other classes (particularly needing a new and unique form of saves just for them), but I also don't care enough to spend time thinking about how to improve them.

Originally, maybe they were supposed to be a jack of all trades, but that concept doesn't translate well into FL. Its boring, really.

The trend of FL balance is for stuff to be massively OP, then toned back. I don't suspect that formula to change anytime soon, honestly. Most "cool" ideas tend to lean this way in most things. People want cool and new and it more often than not leads to overpowered and extreme, but as we don't have a way to really test things before launch, this is the best/only way we really have.

A support class with extra RP tools is boring, unfortunately. No one NEEDS a support class when the game can be soloed by just about anything else and there aren't any RP tools I can think of that'd be worth the trade off. Echo? Meh. I don't see a class getting echo as a skill.

[Kyzarius]

Bards are targeted towards being a hybrid melee class.  With unique weapons specialization.  They are Melee and use songs for direct damage, sustain, and to augment the melee side by removing key strategic elements from the battle.  I think this change pushes them in the right direction.  I played a bard for a bit.  Went more caster than melee obviously, and found a bunch of awesome concepts that just didn't operate.  While the melee side was strong enough to subvert their need, their ineffectiveness made them second choice as well.  So here we honestly have both issues I saw being addressed. A toning of the melee component with a strengthening of the caster side.  Until recently a bard hadn't ever even tried to use those spells on me.  I think they are awesome and add some depth.  IMO this is a move in the right direction for making the class more unique. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Kyzarius

[Rygothran]

This is not just a RP mud so to me it doesn't make sense to have a class based around RP. Each class should be viable in most PK scenarios but not all. That is how balance is supposed to work.

They def need toning and we are trying to do that but we aren't dealing with a test environment here, we are dealing with production. On top of that the level of player skill varies so greatly that it compounds the issue of testing.

Trick does great at PK with bards while others don't. So how do you deal with that? Do you tone down to a level where Trick isn't rolling everyone or do you tone to someone who isn't so good at them? You have to find the balance.

It is an unfortunate downside to the way things are done but we try and do what makes sense for everyone. 

[Fool_Hardy]

I like the Idea @Fireman, at least the concept.

But I believe that honestly most people struggling to kill bards, haven't played them enough to discover the vulnerabilities of the class.

Werebeast Berserker in WM one rounded me earlier this year. 

Battlemage 2 rounded me this year.

Thief 2 rounded me this year.

Its not that the bards are completely OP, its the pbase that is severely uninformed.

Some players have NO trouble killing bards. But they are informed, prepared, and execute their plans.

Currently I use the songs the other way. Not as offense, but to improve defense.

Once I land arduous regret and taunt on an end game mob (pit lord), its not hitting me in combat any more.  Pit lord misses, or I defended.

It would be nice if they had a song of vulnerability as you suggest. A way to make their instrument regardless of material make up to hit vulns against those they fight.

If it was a song it would expire eventually. Could be canceled/dispelled and forced to expire early. Definitely an avenue of thought worth exploring.

[Fool_Hardy]

How to beat a bard. Attack after the song. Just know your going to eat some damage.

Bash /body slam should follow the bards song. His 2 rounds + your 2 rounds = greater chance of a win. (4 rounds with no songs and he cant flee, requires bardic master to fail) If he out maneuvers you flee and try again.

Dirt/blind/ect should follow the song as well. His 2 rounds of fighting blind (without blind fighting) before he can flee = greater chance of a win.

If he sings four seasons, he can not sing any other song this hour, and spent a lot of mana. Flee and wait the tic out. 

Follow the music, kill the bard, save the world.

 

[Dale]

Wouldn't the lag only be 2 rounds if you bashed right after a song?  I would do it like this.

 

 Bard song

combat round

combat round

bash bard

lag round

lag round

------------------------

 

 

[f0xx]

 

1 hour ago, Fool_Hardy said:

How to beat a bard.

 

The same way you beat any hybrid - by spamming bash.

[Trick]

8 minutes ago, f0xx said:

 

 

The same way you beat any hybrid - by spamming bash.

Or if you’re an ogre ranger WM inductee vs a Duergar bard Syndicate T you just dirt kick...😉

[f0xx]

6 minutes ago, Fireman said:

Or if you’re an ogre ranger WM inductee vs a Duergar bard Syndicate T you just dirt kick...😉

And stay camoed at Valcor until the dwarf* just cba anymore.

[Trick]

5 minutes ago, f0xx said:

And stay camoed at Valcor until the dwarf* just cba anymore.

L33t strats when you don’t have sanc and your enemy has the original bard weapons.

#winning 

[Lloth]

3 hours ago, Fool_Hardy said:

How to beat a bard. Attack after the song. Just know your going to eat some damage.

Bash /body slam should follow the bards song. His 2 rounds + your 2 rounds = greater chance of a win. (4 rounds with no songs and he cant flee, requires bardic master to fail) If he out maneuvers you flee and try again.

Dirt/blind/ect should follow the song as well. His 2 rounds of fighting blind (without blind fighting) before he can flee = greater chance of a win.

If he sings four seasons, he can not sing any other song this hour, and spent a lot of mana. Flee and wait the tic out. 

Follow the music, kill the bard, save the world.

 

Bit of bad info here. Unless it's changed while I've not been able to log on, songs lag 1 round. Also, it's not the whole hour for 4 seasons. It's the duration of 4 seasons plus the following combat pulse.

[Trick]

Song lag varies between songs. Carol of Lethargy, for instance, is a lot more than say reverberate.

Its always been this way.

[mya]

@Erelei Could we please have some info on Bard spell saving, like we have on spells?
On "help dispel magic" it will tell us the type of the save. The same for most spells.
Help song names as a bard provides no such information.

[Trick]

2 minutes ago, mya said:

@Erelei Could we please have some info on Bard spell saving, like we have on spells?
On "help dispel magic" it will tell us the type of the save. The same for most spells.
Help song names as a bard provides no such information.

@mya Its literally all breath, lol. Why would we create a new spell check, but make songs utilize a different one?