Bards and Songs

[mya]

I think that making all their songs breath is a bit limiting for a bard. Once they face someone with ~70 breath saves they are worthless now that bards meele appears to have been seriously tonned down.

[Trick]

3 minutes ago, mya said:

I think that making all their songs breath is a bit limiting for a bard. Once they face someone with ~70 breath saves they are worthless now that bards meele appears to have been seriously tonned down.

Same could be said for a shaman, no? I know they get spells to help them land stuff, but meh.

The songs aren't good enough to be a deciding factor in a fight. I wouldn't even use them, really. Its still more reliable to just fight in a room that triggers brawl and have haste on.

The songs don't do anything that isn't necessary to win. They are a "bonus", really.

[Fool_Hardy]

 Detect Magic would be useful for bards.

Whether a material upgrade or a song, the bard has to rely on fat raspberries and encrypted scrolls currently.

Landing a song on a sleeping victim the bard has no IN CLASS way to "see" the length of time the victim is affected.

This alone kept me from using the songs for a long time. No Idea how long the affect lasts after spending countless rounds getting them to land.

I know detect magic is kind of a full C/C ability, but if bards are truly meant to be more spell oriented than melee powerhouses we should give them the tools to continue to be successful.

............

Testing changes.

Echoed voices remains very hard to land. What does it matter? 

I believe that with the melee output of the bard cut by around 30% (loss of third attack, and 25% of maintain stats), they will need this song to land in order to compete in the long fight.

[Trick]

You can get scrolls of chaos from Elf City that last a LONG time, so I don't think adding detect magic to their skill set is vital.

The biggest point I'd like to make is that their songs don't compliment their melee output.

• Carol of Lethary(slow) - VERY powerful against a melee opponent, but it will never land. Ever. And its two rounds of lag and 55 mana. Its a waste of time. Worthless vs a caster/communer.
• Arduous Regret(weaken) - Can be helpful, but it doesn't stack with anything that will make a difference. It works wonders for a shaman because the affects stack with plague, meaning the shaman has limited its opponents melee capability so they can spend time casting other mals. It doesn't supplement a bard's melee. MIOHT be useful against a caster/communer, but doubtful.
• Tranquil Ballad(calm) - Can also be effective, but its not going to land reliably. Its 60 mana and two rounds of lag. Doesn't do anything for my damage. Worthless vs a caster/communer.
• Rhapsody of Delusion(veil) - Probably my favorite song bards have. I had to edit this one because I do feel like its a great song, but if damage is going to be toned, then they need something to stack with this. DK's veil is so scary because of plague/poison. The out of combat time spent acclimating yourself is causing you damage. That, plus summon, is a near death sentence. Bards don't have anything like this.
• Lamented Tears(hide stats) - Makes it so your opponent can't see their hp/mana/moves. Awesome song that is a nice perk to have, but won't affect the overall damage one way or the other. Biggest benefit is hiding moves, you MIGHT be able to run your opponent out.
• Echoed Voices(blur) - 25 mana, two rounds of lag. Never lands. Does make a difference in a PK against a melee, but worthless against a caster/communer.

Overall, the "mals" don't stack, they don't add up, and they don't do dick all against a caster/communer. The problem is that the songs don't ADD anything of value to melee. They make my opponent uncomfortable, but don't affect combat directly. So, the bard is going to rely on four seasons and melee damage from their weapon because their songs are not really that great.

If you want bards to be mal and focus on doing that FIRST then finishing with damage LATER, then you need to make the songs imperative to land. Lowering melee output is not going to make those songs any better though because they don't bump my damage or lower my opponent's damage/defense. The song affects should be redone as I suggested in my other post to directly correlate with their damage if that is the route we want them to go, but as is the songs don't add value outside of being "neat" and making my opponent uncomfortable.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Fireman

[Fool_Hardy]

That will help thanks @Fireman.

Another change that would help the bards. Let a sheathed instrument count as in the bards hands for certain songs.

Meaning, he can still cure, sing the marriage song, refresh his mind, or "warcry" (totems canticle), without having to break the law.

I do not suggest you make these songs non instrument required, or bards will stop wearing instruments. But why not let the sheathed instrument be played for these four songs?

Lullaby does not even require an instrument. But we made music that protects/preserves a criminal activity.

[mya]

2 hours ago, Fireman said:

The biggest point I'd like to make is that their songs don't compliment their melee output.

They might not compliment your play style which is Blitzkrieg like a Tiger Tank. But they sure compliment my atriction tactics. Bards are quickly opening lots of tactical options now that it's harder to save their spells.

Lulaby is an area sleep song. You might not be able to sleep a rangers pets due to their stupid charm imunity, and Necro undead pets but all others are gone. And they have steal. You aren't keeping anything that isn't bolted to your body. Good luck keeping that Glimmering or extra weapon or extra saves gear. Not to speak of backpacks.

Their weaken is better than Shamans. Song:  arduous regret : modifies int by -6 for 5 hours   : modifies str by -6 for 5 hours
It weakens meeles and MAGES mana regen. -6 int is a huge hit on mana gain. Humans become FG.

Add slow from carol of lethargy which will land now and you are set.

Calm isn't worthless.

Veil, means that you can run quite easy. You can just hide in Tamaras. With a cure HP song and a cure Mana song (at least last time I played one), atrictions i pretty easy. They can't even WHERE to know if you are just lurking near them.

Both slow and weaken will allow you to hit more empowering your damage and be hit a lot letss.

There are so many devious ways to use their skill set, that I'm tempted to roll one. To bad, my bards got all wiped and I would rather roll a Cleric just for the hinted changes.
If everyone starts to have to stack high Breath saves or even focus more on Vs spell, that's an advantage for Clerics who are mono-save dependant and most other mages. Then again there aren't many breath saves to stack.

[Zhurong]

The one song not only places a veil over you (cannot see the room properly or area) but it tele locks you as well. That is HUGE.

 

[Magick]

Sweet!  Can't be summoned!

[Dale]

That's funny on so many levels lol.

[Kyzarius]

That got put on me recently.  Realized i dont need to know where i am to fight.  It was like fighting blind lite mode.

[f0xx]

Yeah those songs are all good until you realize you are still getting owned, and your enemy considers you nothing more than an annoyance.

That telelock song is interesting though, if it does telelock indeed.

Edited December 9, 2017 by f0xx

[Trick]

It doesn’t telelock.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Fireman

[f0xx]

Oh, someone spreading false info then?

Well that's a first in this forum

[Erelei]

7 hours ago, f0xx said:

Yeah those songs are all good until you realize you are still getting owned, and your enemy considers you nothing more than an annoyance.

That telelock song is interesting though, if it does telelock indeed.

It's a curse - not a telelock.

[Trick]

It prolly shouldn't curse... just sayin.

[Erelei]

"It's too weak man!"

Same week:

"It's too strong man!"

Sigh.

[aaa]

Has anyone actually claimed that bards are too weak since their revamp? 

[Anume]

Yeah.

[Trick]

@Anume and @Erelei,

How do you two feel about the current place bards are in?

We've had a lot of players post their opinions, myself included, on the current state of bards and the direction they should go, but you two really haven't said a whole lot on the class. I'd be curious to know what you two think.

[Anume]

I think they should be quite balanced without these two song upgrades once the maintain table has changed and only 3 maintains are possible. Getting insane amounts of svspell AND hr dr AND noremove AND specials like paralyze or fireblind is a bit too much.

This is a ton of work though and might need some fine tuning once it's done.

A big TY to Erelei for putting all that work in, code wise.

[Trick]

18 minutes ago, Anume said:

I think they should be quite balanced without these two song upgrades once the maintain table has changed and only 3 maintains are possible. Getting insane amounts of svspell AND hr dr AND noremove AND specials like paralyze or fireblind is a bit too much.

This is a ton of work though and might need some fine tuning once it's done.

A big TY to Erelei for putting all that work in, code wise.

What two songs upgrades? The spell level increase?

[Anume]

No, no, those are fine. I'm talking about thunderclap and curse. I don't think those are needed. Esp. as it is also more difficult to save vs bard songs now.

[Trick]

Just now, Anume said:

No, no, those are fine. I'm talking about thunderclap and curse. I don't think those are needed.

I agree with that.

How do you feel about the refrain change? Now only reverberate can be refrained. Should you be able to refrain a song so its on deck when combat starts and still able to sing other songs?

[Anume]

Considering that 4 seasons is damage for four pulses and you can do different stuff in the meantime, I think it's a good idea to remove it from refraining. You can still refrain reveberate though, which does ok damage, but now you'll have to choose between either debuffing or damaging, when first you could have both. The problem with bards was (still is slightly) that they can pour out damage too fast to really need their songs. So yes, I think removing 3 seasons from refraining is a step in the right direction.

[Trick]

Reverberate does an injure/wound when I use it against morts. Not sure what others experience though.

The debuffs aren't complimentary to the damage though. So, if you lower damage with the intent of using songs, you're left with songs that don't do anything to increase your own damage output and don't really affect the damage output of your opponents. For instance, the songs don't do anything to affect a caster/communer unless its using RIP on Necromancers.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Fireman