Abusing Poison should lead to toxic

Thank's Zoichan.  I feel like I'm being extremely dense on this issue.  I was under the impression that it was another container that auto-poisoned you without player interference.  Good to know it's just the water pack the complaint is about.

Thieves and ninjas can envenom other containers as well, not just the pack, and I gathered the pack was preference for a larger number of drinks per container.  I'm fairly certain that having Farmer John's water barrel envenomed will have the same effect.  Same with a light water jug from Elemental Canyon.  Or a bought container from Maelbrim.  If they don't, yes there's a bug.

If it does, then the "specific container" was the source of my confusion and this whole issue revolves around the magic resistant races getting a higher level poison from thieves.  Like everyone else can. But everyone else can use brews, too and magic resist races can't.  The magic resists had to go out of their way to get something that would poison them.  So the problem lay with envenoming containers.  But that's a class feature.  If one were to make it harder for magic resist races to get poisoned from envenomed containers, one could lower the poison level on containers from thieves and ninjas.  Perhaps.

If it's not the envenom skill, the underlying issue seems to be the want or need to have a counter to paralytic/catatonic skills without resorting to poison.  I'm going to bow out as I've got nothing to bring to the table on that issue, or on the original suggestion in this thread.

In fact, I think I'll do that anyway as I feel like someone needs to explain this to me like I was five.

I see nothing wrong with poison or blackjack as it stands currently. The only issues I can see lie elsewhere with other skills which this post is not the correct place to speak of it. Everyone hates thieves. Thieves either steal enough to kill you or just steal your stuff just to piss you off. It is part of the game. Think of it as rare circulation. So, please, let us just stop the whining.

Dwarves for example already get high hp, good mana, and great stats. They also have a way to nullify their weakness. So what more is there to cry about? So, you might get blackjacked and lose a few pieces. Melee dwarves should be able to out fight the thief. Communers can recall, dont get caught near your pit. BAM. Otherwise find ways to make backpacks too heavy to steal. Keep recall potions. Keep teleport pills. Etc... etc...

I would also like I've seen naked thieves with icicles kill decked fire giants. I've seen thieves out melee crusaders. Thieves are not weak in any form. I've also been blackjacked, pried and planted, only to wake up and kick that thieves ass. Learn and adapt to your situations.

This argument for, or against, poison isn't about thieves being able to steal shit and quit.  Maybe an uncaballed, trashy thief but not the ones pinn'd currently.  Thieves don't have the weapon knowledge, defenses, or melee output to be viable against many classes if they can't at least get one knockout and remove/plant something critical.  That's not to say they can't win a PK once in a while under the circumstances, but it's an anomaly.  That's also not saying thieves have the right to be able to knock someone out; it should be tough.

Just to reiterate I'm not currently playing any magic resist race and nearly never played a magic resist race. Nor have I ever played a thief haha. And I will not play another ninja as things are now. I'm just a guy who realizes getting blackjacked just once is enough to be game breaking. Having your supplies stolen just once is match breaking. Magic resist races are quite powerful. Ninjas are extremely weak in this conversation without the use of assassinate as Zoichan mentioned. Think I found a way to fix all these problems with a focus on one change. :)

Theirs still problems with warrior and vampire lag locks?

Putting someone to sleep as a ninja, thief, necro, or psi definitely does not equal a guaranteed kill. (maybe a necro :P)

As far as I can tell the only thing in this game with no counter is a minotaur with triggers. If you cant out damage them in combat you lose.

This bit of frustration pretty much drove me away. Especially when the said minotaur can 4 round me without needing sanctuary, and deems it necessary to sac all the decent rares I had. If I can't survive more than 4 rounds of combat with 1200 hp and -600 AC then what chance do I have with mediocre items? Before Naruthion comes in and waves his magic ban wand I would like to make it clear that I am not flaming anyone. I am not accusing anyone of cheating or being trashy. This is just my opinion on a mechanic that is completely allowed and legal, that I find unfair. It's also just my opinion that if you can pk someone with such ease that maybe you dont need to sac their hard earned rares. But again, everything I mentioned is fully within the rules of the game and I am not flaming anyone, just expressing my frustration. I should probably harden up, I know, but it's easier to just stop playing :D

13 hours ago, Trick said:

 

@Zoichan You're right. It IS about shinies being taken with absolutely zero way to defend against it beside sitting far away and hiding or quitting out. You're 100% right.

You are being very dramatic in saying there is zero way to defend against it. A thief you can see is a thief that's going to have a harder time blackjacking you. Be in a forest where they can't hide. At that point, you have better than a zero percent chance to defend against it. Get the first command in. Dirt kick. Bash. Whatever you've got. Firestorm. Who needs poison when there are actually items that cast firestorm?

If anything, the Watcher Thief should be complaining about the changes to raiding. I watched Addir raid Val Miran the other night. Half of it turned green and he couldn't hide. I giggled.

25 minutes ago, Zoichan said:

You are being very dramatic in saying there is zero way to defend against it. A thief you can see is a thief that's going to have a harder time blackjacking you. Be in a forest where they can't hide. At that point, you have better than a zero percent chance to defend against it. Get the first command in. Dirt kick. Bash. Whatever you've got. Firestorm. Who needs poison when there are actually items that cast firestorm?

Okay. I exaggerated a ZERO percent chance to defend it. Sure.. what about the classes that don't have access to blind right off? Then their opening move lags them, thief flees/walks in and blackjacks, steals their shit and runs away and does it all again. Let me ask you this, then.. What is the percentage of players that will log out or wait out the timer? I can safely say almost all of them.

25 minutes ago, Zoichan said:

If anything, the Watcher Thief should be complaining about the changes to raiding. I watched Addir raid Val Miran the other night. Half of it turned green and he couldn't hide. I giggled.

I'd love to see that complaint..

" Our raids are doing what the cabal is intended to do and it's ruining my ability to hide! "

@ Zoichan

When I played my ninjas it just made it easier when I could hide. I enjoyed waiting until the tick was about to change before going in to help me avoid each of those tactics. As the rogue you also have an item (though extremely rare) that helps, in addition to a very popular racial ability.

Brainstorm Idea:

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.. Instead of taking away from the poison, why don't we add a way to get around it? We've been adding tons of new items that help get around certain vulnerabilities and that can do special things.. What if there was a unique item( ONE ONLY ) that put blackjack at a higher proficiency that allowed it to blackjack through poisons? I just thought of this and I'm not sure what could be abused or what the opinions would be, but I'm trying to think for both parties. 

A single item like this would make ONE thief a pain in the ass, but wouldn't mean anyone could take their pinned slith thief off the shelf to rid some people of some shinies.

5 hours ago, tassinvegeta said:

I'm just a guy who realizes getting blackjacked just once is enough to be game breaking.

Not game breaking. Just means you were stupid, were in an area with a thief, and will 'probably' die depending on where you were blackjacked.

5 hours ago, tassinvegeta said:

Theirs still problems with warrior and vampire lag locks?

No, I fixed those.

48 minutes ago, Trick said:

Okay. I exaggerated a ZERO percent chance to defend it. Sure.. what about the classes that don't have access to blind right off?

If they don't have blind, then they're a magi class, and just so happens, they're either healer, or cleric, or blademaster.

1. As a cleric, or healer, you have 'commune 'word of recall'' if you get blackjacked. Stay out of city rooms if you know there's a thief, and get ready to get the first opener if they come for you. Last I checked, thieves can't curse you.
2. If you're a blademaster, you can predict blackjack.
3. If you're a warrior, berserker, or bard: dirt kick. Or for just a bard: lullaby (which by the way lands so much easier now).

There's always a chance versus something or someone who can blackjack.

Cool, bro.

I'm gonna take a step back from this thread and let you guys figure it out.

15 hours ago, Morlhach said:

No biggy. Everyone's getting defensive about poison right now.

I don't get defensive. I don't even play and if its to be changed, I won't care. It will still be a stupid change though with 0 sense in it and it will only hurt the game by making people log out, just like they do when an assassinate ninja is around. But you know that already. That's why you agreed so easily to revert the change at first place.

Sleeping abilities need some sort of counter because they give too big of advantage. its simple as that. There is no argument against that.

Not just that, but none of the classses with access to sleeping abilities really needs these abilities to be successful in the first place. Landing that sleeping ability though is almost a certain death (or huge annoyance in the case of stolen provisions), hence why, you need to poison yourself. The way I see it poison equals protective shield when it comes to mage vs melee. Removing poison or adding another drawback to it equals taking away protective shield from mages.

[edit] Oh, and we are back at the stage where people (IMMs) tell you how to counter sleeping abilities without the use of brew. Lets see now.... yep. They all suck. If I try to dirt kick your thief Morle, you are just going to enter at the end of the tick, flee immediately, wait for dirt to fall, re-enter my room and blackjack me while I am still lagged from the dirt command. Why even suggest that when it is so easily avoidable.

Geez Foxx, aggressive much?

I honestly don't think the issue regarding poison needs any change. A well played thief may catch you and get off a blackjack. I have not in recent years had many things stolen, for one reason or another. Those that were stolen, can be replaced, and that is something that I think people forget. We all love our shinies, but they will be lost and regained, don't dwell on what you lost.

Assassinate, are people really still that scared of it? It is quite avoidable without needing to log out. Just like with thieves, they cannot hide in the forest and other areas, use those against the thief to ensure you are not being studied. Learn about their study ability, it has range limits and other such things. If you engage them while they are studying you, you are preventing them from being able to continue to study you and force them to change tactics. Even if you do all this, you may still get assassinated, but with the way recent people are playing (I have seen significantly less looting) you will be fine.

It can feel cheap on the receiving end, but instead of blaming the ability for the reason of your annoyance, RP with the ninja, congratulate them on their success. See what can grow from it. You will be able to quickly determine if they are being played by someone whom is only in it to hurt the game, and maybe provide some examples of that behavior to the Imms (in the form of logs of course), let them sit that character down and explain, hey, if you don't start playing this game in a fair way, you can leave. Yes we are a PK and RP mud, and we want to encourage both, but still make sure it is fun for the majority. Anyone whom is not of this mindset, I kindly ask you to go play something else.

I don't know how much or how often (hopefully not at all, but people are people) the Imms have to do such, but I hope they do. Things are really starting to look bright for our little game here, good rivalries without a lot of grudging, not kicking people while they are down, these will all work to benefit the game as a whole and make people want to pick the character back up and continue to fight. I know it makes me want to.

FromFrom my experience random pking hasn't really ever been an issue for me with, or against, sleep/blackjack.  Your gonna get hit regardless of poison eventually.  I do, however, see a problem with poison and cabal warfare.  Generally standards get used OOC as dinner bells to force a stealth class into open combat while prepped with buffs and poison. 

Forcing a ninja/thief into open combat, as they are forced to respond, puts them at a huge disadvantage.   I'd like to see a timer set which won't allow you to use poison until X hours from attacking a cabal guard.  On a side note I'd like to see sleep PSI be able to bypass poison all together since they can't hide making them useless in pk.

Well, all that means is the stealth class is going to wait for you to attack cabal, flee from the guard then knock you out. Which only is going to hurt the person going for the standard, punishing them counter play wise for doing exactly as they should.

Personally I don't believe psi need any bypass, certain psi paths have a nasty spell to do exactly as you say.

@f0xx: I think you misunderstand my reversion of the change for agreeing with the playerbase. Unfortunately, I reverted it because of the immediate outrcry of nearly half of our playerbase. i have opinions - everyone here does too. Just because you have an opinion which may differ from my own, doesn't mean things I change stay because I'm stubborn (because I'm not). 

There's a lot of opinions flowing around. A lot of people getting irritated and upset over it (@Trick for instance) that is absolutely understandable. It seems that, although the change was reverted, my opinion seems to piss people off, and we get this little pissing contest with snide remarks thrown at everyone because someone disagrees with the other. Or simply people stop posting and decide to stop playing because my opinion differs from theirs.

Let me get this straight guys: If something causes enough of an uproar, I won't keep the change. This doesn't mean however that you can just make a big thing about something everytime because you disagree. If I change something, it's with thought and I have a lot of decision making before hand. If I change it back, it means either: 1) A player made a valid point, or 2) It just wasn't worth the hassle to have people get so irritated over it that it would ruin their experience (even when I didn't think it would).

I'm not the enemy here. I have an opinion. I voiced it. You voiced yours, and I heard you loud and clear. This doesn't mean however that I agreed with it or changed something back because I apparently saw the error in my ways. It simply means I listen and get involved with the community that helps make this game playable.

That said, I'm done with the discussion regarding poison. I've seen some ideas (and thank you to those who posted them) and I've also seen just plain 'I hate this change it's stupid posts'. If you have an idea, post it. I don't want to see a post about why you disagree and then explain that it's a stupid change without helping further the advancement of fixing said issue. It's just better if your posts actually help rather than rage at something you disagree with.

5 hours ago, Ithric said:

Your gonna get hit regardless of poison eventually.

That's the whole point. If the guy you are fighting is worth its salt, he is going to catch either way without poison or without moves. Why lower the skill cap required?

5 hours ago, Ithric said:

I do, however, see a problem with poison and cabal warfare.  Generally standards get used OOC as dinner bells to force a stealth class into open combat while prepped with buffs and poison.

Noone tells you to do so. You can catch your opponent on his way to your cabal, on his way back, on his way recalling. Hell, you can circle around your cabal guard. No other class has such ability. That's the beauty of the thief class. You can set some of the most annoying and dangerous traps. Have you tried taking a standard away from a brambus needler thief? Pretty damn annoying.

5 hours ago, Ithric said:

On a side note I'd like to see sleep PSI be able to bypass poison all together since they can't hide making them useless in pk.

So, by your logic necros should also get sleep bypass since they can't hide which makes the "useless" too? Vamps too?

Since this thread regarding poison, although is used to help counter other classes "knockout" abilities, it is mainly about thieves and I think we should maybe look at ways to both encourage players to play a thief, not further hindering or helping their ability to blackjack someone, but perhaps change prying?

If the main concern is that they can pry you naked (which has never happened to me, lost quite a few things and that hurt) what if we examine ways we can possible change pry so that it is still useful, and harder to abuse. For instance what if there is a pry item limitation (I am thinking others may not like this, not sure I am fully for it) that you cannot pry Armor (so just equipment that is the type Armor, as opposed to jewelry and such). Or what about if they do pry armor, it has an increased chance to wake you up immediately, depending on how heavy, etc. the armor is?

I think part of the problem for me with the discussion around poison is that I do not see their being an issue. Although I do not know what the exact workaround is (I know it involves poisoning a water source, but not how it is accomplished outside of having it envenomed by another character) but from what I understand it is a higher level of poison. Perhaps we should consider increasing the damage of poison based upon the level of said poison. So a level 5 poison does scratches vs. a level 50 poison does hits or maims. This would certainly discourage the workaround as I am interpreting it.