Thyrius and the Vision of Merchant

[Tantangel]

Just a warning, it's long, but it's also what I thought of when I stated what I did in a slightly chaotic step by step way of sorts.

@WadeAlright, so I'll break it down to at least how I view it as being helpful overall.

Yes, it means more people will probably have a God suit as you so state it. How does this help? It gives more information as to how it works on more race/class combinations than it currently would. The problem with things not being changed is mainly due to a lack of information. More information ultimately means better tweaks and more quickly because of the input of that information. It could have been done for HM, but you have to remember that HM is a very brief period and doesn't give much insight as to how it works overall. Sometimes you can get lucky too because you'll have a piece of EQ that may typically only fire off once in a while, then suddenly you'll find yourself having it fire off twice inside of the same fight. That is the case for Dragons as well. Having a more long term scope of study would be beneficial when used by people who PK versus those who only wish to RP. That is how I view it though, and that is similar to how drug studies are done to see how they may affect a person or not over time by using trials. In this case it helps the issue of a lack of EQ that so many people complain about. So it's made more clear this is what I meant by the more PK focused players who would then be able to have an idea of balance of said EQ. Will it solve all issues? No, but it would help speed it up slightly because of it.

The glowing ember probably wouldn't be affected by this. The only times I ever have been asked for them were typically by mages who want to try and capitalize on it more easily since they have a lack of dirt kick. There was a few months there that I didn't see them about and I was asked by the same characters each month, but outside of those times I was asked about them literally only about 5 other times. The Meat Kleefer has been extremely popular along with Rokujan and a few other things. Mainly those popular items were Unique items which only have a few available anyways. Take for example the Ethereal Radiance. Mages want it, but as a Druid I've always found that I will either die on those trips or nearly die several times which pushes my comfort level out of the zone. Thus I try not to go there unless I know a group is competent enough to do it without such issues. There are a possibility of 8 of those though depending on how many characters there are above level 30. The Carcass is Unique though and there's only 1 of them available. It's also held by someone who PKs to some degree. In this instance it's not a good evaluation for it overall because they're difficult to fight, and I only nearly got them once as a Ranger.

The Orb of Fear there are two of though, and it's an item that would definitely change the game of things in my eyes. A close fight becomes impossible if you're using it effectively because of all of the perks of it. What plays into this though is it cannot be located, so even if both are worn, unless you physically look at a character, you may never know who has those items. That's kind of a good thing, but I still feel it should be changed. A static ***OBLITERATES*** every 24 or so ticks along with +5 hitroll and + spell level in my eyes really should be changed. Imagine if Thulgan or any other PK beast had something like that in their hands. Add it in to their strategy, and it very well could mean that it would be changed soon after. With Herald and/or Merchant EQ being boosted to be on par with other rares means you get to see how it works for those classes. If it works really well for every class, it probably needs to be changed in some way. To boot if you have not used the mask and it still has a charge, it will halt all fights in the room if you or a group member are about to die usually. Like as in the Immortal way to stop it. I've only had it happen about 3 times, but that was with the Gor'gorak twice and once in Gear.

I'll take another interesting mask to compare it to that seems to be a lot more well balanced. The Mask of Revelations. Upon use you can see any hidden/camouflaged characters in the area. Not on demand mind you, but only when used and it takes a little while before it can be used again so it can't be abused. You can say the 24 (I'll be honest here, it could be a little longer, but it's about this) hour timer on the Orb of Fear is balanced, but while factoring in the other positives of it, it really removes balance of EQ overall. There's no mask that benefits all combinations equally like the Orb of Fear. Some compliment others more in some cases, and I feel like the mask has caused me to lose concentration far more than I ever did before, but that may be just speculation too.

So how does it solve an EQ shortage? It potentially does for Rare items. More so than any other idea that has been thrown out there. Unique items though are different. You're looking at having quite a few Rare things being about more often, but in the event of Unique, you're limited typically to 1-2 items in most instances. Rokujan I have seen about 3-4 people carrying them around at the same time, but I haven't seen that since either. It may be that it has higher numbers than other Unique items, but it could mean that they were probably over the total limit so it would probably crumble upon their death.

The issue with inflated stats is that certain EQ is coveted. That will always be the case. With more people wearing it it could make it seem like a larger problem, but it again still could speed up the process of getting the tweaks needed on them done more quickly. You have to realize that Lloth took it on as a project and even if every Imm were to jump on it to test it out, it would still be limited because their time  is limited and with a number of other characters who gain those items if it were changed, it would allow more information to be processed assuming those people also post their logs or if an Imm happens to be snooping them. In either situation you have to trust in the judgement of other players in doing the right thing too. Not everyone will openly take the time to test it all out and post those logs for several reasons, and it's not ideal, but it does offer a better chance at fixing that more quickly too.

I don't believe it's so much more information wouldn't help as much as it is to say that the information that is there is extremely limited. More information in most cases is a good thing. I myself have always strived to document as much as possible, but recently with the changing of a laptop has made this more of an issue than before. I try to keep an updated log of all IDs for items in the game and if I realize it's not documented, I send them to Magick so he can continue on with it. An ID though can only do so much. You look at the Meat Kleefer as an example prior to the change of it. It seemed too good to be true and it turned out it was. What did it take though for it to be finally changed? Quite some time. EQ as a focus point can only be a group effort with as much information as possible freely shared to balance the game again. Is this the #1 priority though? Not really. But I definitely see it as helping push that project along a little bit more than it has had so far. One person may have a few hours a week or maybe upwards of 20 a week they may be willing to spend on video games in general. So lets say they spend 3 hours a week playing because that's all they have. That's 156 hours a year. Or lets say they have the ability to be on the game for 20 hours a month, which is 240 hours every year. Lets say that 5 people are able to dedicate their time to looking at how which means if they spend the full amount of time on it, that's 1200 hours a year spent looking at EQ and their IDs.

What's the problem with that though? They're looking at IDs for one. And that's it. Chances are also that if they have 20 hours a month to play, they're probably not spending all of it on just that either. They want to have fun too, and focusing on just that is more boring than anything I've ever imagined it could be. I was helping someone with their MUD forever ago and I focused mainly on building during my break from here. That shit is tedious at times when that's all you're doing. I spent probably 20% of my time building, and 40% thinking up concepts for different areas and EQ. I had to stop though because I lost the passion for building I had because I was the only one doing it as they were coding. If you take that into account, having more people being able to participate in doing something they already enjoy doing  without burning yourself out means you'll have more information, better thoughts of how to change it, and overall how well it may be received. Even if 1200 hours were spent each year focusing only on this aspect with the current system in place (meaning some unique items may never be in because it benefits the Merchant/Herald more greatly by keeping it), at some point they'll burn out. If everyone contributed though, even if they don't realize it, it can speed that process up. You want balance? Sometimes information learned though second hand and is able to be replicated can go much further than to just trust in a system that could burn a person out by choosing that process. This is why Halloween Madness is a HORRIBLE time to test EQ changes out. It's short, the pumpkin armor is better than any other torso piece removing any torso piece armor being tested out to be negated, and it's not exactly the precise code overall as the main game since you can have even more different race/class combination and it's meant as a way to have players play without repercussions on things they do. You can test a lot of other things like skills and spells themselves during that time, but as far as testing EQ at that time, it doesn't give enough information to see how it plays out with others overall.

[Archbishop Monk]

I do not think our staff here does not know what the problems are as they have been given plenty of data.  The trouble with balance is it is not about just blanket erasing a problem, it is about not causing future problems by the 'fix'.  In order to ensure the fix will work, you need data on how it will actually affect the game.  I do agree with @Tantangel about some things though.

The solution @Lloth gave would actually be a large step in the right direction.  More godsuits isn't exactly a good thing because they affect different classes different ways.  But, at least now survivability goes up because someone might have access to say enough 'defensive' equipment to not get two-rounded by the current people in the godsuits.

[Tantangel]

25 minutes ago, Archbishop Monk said:

@LlothMore godsuits isn't exactly a good thing because they affect different classes different ways.

Exactly the reason why I propose it would solve the issues. If items affect each class differently, but to a degree in which it's not game breaking, chances are the EQ piece may be already balanced. Sometimes that's not the case and it needs a trial run by minor adjustments it makes more sense to have an ongoing trial test run on things that either are being considered to drop certain stats, or versus a guesstimation of sorts that involve very few people including Imms and Players. They may have a lot of information about different EQ, but it's the fact that you'll have multiple people having more input that could potentially narrow down the results and the right tweaks than an ongoing process that could take years to actually complete. I look at it as a good thing overall because of the data given. Don't forget the fact that a lot of times players do not report anything about EQ if it will directly benefit them. Look at the Mask of Discord as an example. You could have kept binding it to you for free because it was at level 0 before it was reported. A good 7 years after the game had been running. More eyes may seem like a violation of a players privacy, but armor tweaks don't always just mean the perks and drawbacks to an item, but also the level of said items. If it's left up to only a few people to decide whether an item is changed or not, do you really want it to be changed 7 years from now or longer? That's how I see it being because sometimes even with more information things aren't changed because it was deemed fine. You an look at F0xx and how much Ninjas were changed over time because of his. Before he said his ideas were shrugged off as being fine until he rolled one himself to prove they should be changed. EQ and classes may be different, but both go hand in hand. Had those changes not been made, you'd still have people freaking out over it. EQ to me should have more people to have input with because of that simple fact.

[Kyzarius]

Frankly i do not like any of the proposed changes.  The Merchant sub-cabal is a front for the syndicate.  From what I can gather this seems to throw that out the window and make it into some newbie eq dispenser.  So what now, we end up having super decked characters with all this extra stuff to GET the gear.  Which is then put on some mob just to buy.  Turning the non merchants into gold farmers.  Why not just give everyone super cabal gear, and let them get it themselves.  

The point of having to go get gear is to play the game.  If nobody can get to the gear then weaken the mobs.  

If merchants are hoarding, then let them get pk'ed.  They should be huge targets anyways in my opinion, with only their ability to place priority bounties, and the syndicate protecting them as their saving grace.  If a merchant refuses to sell something you want, and your ethos allows it, kill them, rob them.  

I also don't see this whole "eq shortage" thing.  I roll a new character, hit 50 and am decked in short order.  There are so many options.  You just have to diversify a little.  Yea, some items are hard to find.  Or vanish for a bit, but that is part of the game.  

Just seems like you want to turn eq gaining into a shopping list.  I don't like it. 

[Grim_Reefer]

@Kyzarius

What if a neutral merchant is holding out gear from a good aligned player? The good aligned player then does not have the option  to rob them.

[Kyzarius]

2 hours ago, Grim_Reefer said:

@Kyzarius

What if a neutral merchant is holding out gear from a good aligned player? The good aligned player then does not have the option  to rob them.

I guess you shouldn't be "good" if you want to rob merchants. 

[Archbishop Monk]

I see this the basic problem of a gear-based game.  If you have armor that covers an intrinsic weakness to a class, then that weakness no longer becomes a weakness and unbalances a class.  The same applies to races which is why some items were removed from being able to be worn by those races.  The trouble is, this isn't exactly applied all the way across the board, yet, but I believe the staff is working on it.  Should a mage be able to defend against physical as well as a melee?  Apparently the playerbase and staff alike decided that shouldn't be.  Should a melee be able to defend against magic as well as a caster or communer?  I would say the balance should remain a resounding no, and have confidence the staff has realized that as well.

I don't think anyone should have absolute PK protection, but I don't think anyone should be unable to defend themselves.  Defending themselves means that if they stand little chance of killing you, you should stand as little of a chance killing them.  Sigil does this nicely, in all honesty.  A merchant however gets only one skill I consider that aids them in surviving.  That skill is better suited to gaining gear than it is to PK as well, unless they changed it since I last had a merchant.

To be immune to bounties helps as well, to some degree.  But, that again depends on someone else.  Having the shop will not mean things are easily handed out to anyone who just hits 50.  It means that anyone who just rushes to 50 may or may not have the gold to buy the items that they want.  That's fine to me.  Also, those merchant mobs will be placed 'somewhere' which means they are going to be a hotspot to catch new level 50's if someone wants to set a trap for them.  No different that what currently happens now as we have seen many times people laying traps in Steel, waiting on the new level 50 to head there. 

edit:  Another idea to make gold mean more to a merchant is to give them the ability to 'trade' with mobs instead of killing them.  It could work like bartering except for with mobs instead of other players.  You offer Adeptus 200,000 gold for his arms.  You have to sit for an amount of time like requesting, but in the end you lose the gold and get the armor.  Instead of getting the arms of adeptus though, you get a merchant only armor piece that you can wear in the slot you traded for.  This could be the way in which merchants build their own personal armor sets.  This way, they still have to explore and rare counts still affect even them (if the armor isn't on the mob, you cannot 'trade' to get an equivalent piece)

[Fool_Hardy]

Still think that in order for Heralds to be able to travel well, they end up having to wear gear better suited for pk oriented cabals.

Then those Heralds are whined at for wearing heirlooms for example. If not hunted for them. Newbie friendly cabal becomes pack mules for the elite. Just my personal observations.

[Tantangel]

I haven't seen a Merchant RP as being a front for Syndicate since I came back to play. I've been back 2.5 years now with about half of that time spent as either a Merchant or Syndicate. It lost the original intent of the cabal prior to me returning because the most I've seen is that Merchant is treated like dog shit while Syndicate seem to enjoy trying to walk over them because they believe they're better. You have to realize that there's very few things they both share. Bribe, which a Merchant has not been wanted in quite some time that I've noticed. Spy, which is sometimes useful in the right situations. And the hideout. Most of their skills are geared towards helping newbies and other players which is almost always the polar opposite of almost every Syndicate rolled character.

I'm kind of surprised that out of everyone who loves to pk that you hate the idea considering you can't coup a Merchant if you're playing a Syndicate. To me the Merchant RP is now far better suited for Herald and not the Syndicate. If anything, a new sub cabal should be a better work for syndicate than just merchant. When I log in, often times im the only one playing the game. As a non merchant it doesn't take long to get a lot of gold if you know what you're doing. If you get 2 million gold you're pretty well set for the rest of the characters life, so you're downplaying the issue of gold and the proposed changes. If a mob is made to be able to sell things while a merchant is offline that's good for everyone. Not every class can solo gear, and if you know a merchant has something on sale from there but gothe never online to see them in order to purchase it, this solves the issue. I don't need to hear the, "if someone has it, kill them for it" rhetoric because if you know they have it, you can't kill them when they're offline. That's just common sense. Placing a bounty means you may get it, but there's a good possibility you'll get something else entirely. Pk doesn't solve every issue with EQ shortage. Rp won't either. If you log in and you're the only player around, whatever eq is there will be there. You can't change that. Add in a mob so a merchant can sell things while offline though, you're able to get it mor easily than having to wait and hope it comes about. 

During your play times you can roll up a 50 and get decked quickly. I've been able to as well. A majority of the time I do find things though is because someone deleted so their things were circulated. Yeah you can roll up someone to kill a merchant, and there's literally nothing stopping you from doing so. The most a merchant can do at that point is place a bounty or if they think a second go should be in their favor, they could try that. Otherwise they have to rp it off in other ways if the character breaches their own rp if they don't normally do so. 

Often times Merchants are used to abuse by other players whether they realize it or not. Someone pointed out the truth of them saying that they're treated as a vending machine. It's very accurate. What they do is offer a service that makes it convenient for other players to dress in decent to really good wares when they can afford it. It'll take us longer to get it just to have someone else pitch a fit because it's 200k for something that took us a while to get. Then at a certain point God stops meaning anything because you don't use a lot on other things. The only reason I ever give discounts and such is because I've already maxed out my banks, and the gold I carry I usually spend on dressing up low lever characters. I've had enough time though to be able to get the gold needed that such prices aren't a huge deal to me, but I've been told that new merchants are also being treated as such, which is disheartening. 

The dynamic RP between syndicate and merchant seems to be continually downplayed though. Merchant shouldn't have to be told they can't meddle in affairs of Syndicate or vice versa if they claim to be a "family". A syndicate gains nothing from the merchant unless the merchant wants to help them by creating more business. If the syndicate refuses such help, what's the point in the two cabals even being joined outside of the rp that got it worked when it was first implemented? A syndicate should also be able to contribute ideas that would help them as well. A merchant doesn't benefit from any bounties taken unless they're online. Even then though it's a few CPs and they don't get a armor bag once it's done. 

As ab example with Deakon saying bounty prices shouldn't be raised. Of which I never said it should directly in the time he's even been created. It was a ploy to make gold for the family overall which was struck down because the non existant plan that he seems to be following is working incredibly well. My past dealings usually benefited both sides immensely, but since trying to pass the reigns on so too speak, bounty boards have been practically empty except for the 30+ Gordy managed to take swiftly. Even then though most people just log off when they see syndicate because they don't want to die and then names drop off the boards again. The rp Deakon is doing though definitely drives the wedge between the two and shines a brilliant light on their differences that he's done more to help push my ideas further into light though because it says clearly they don't have a place there anymore. For me the two are night and day. As much as some may feel or believe the two should remain tied together, their own beliefs really just make it seem they're further apart than even I believed them to be. Having a mob still their EQ though definitely should go further for people who aren't online when merchants are. This fixes issues in different ways even if you don't agree with it. 

[Archbishop Monk]

There is one major potential problem I see for having a mob sell gear, but I don't know how to fix it.  That is merchants buying their own gear with other toons.  You could, as a merchant, post a full set of adeptus gear, switch toons, and buy all that gear on your alt.  While I am sure the culprits would be caught and punished, it is still an available option.  The imms might want to state it as a rule that you are not allowed to do that, to keep people from hoarding rares or decking out their alts.

[Rygothran]

Coup is a function Syndicate can use but it isn't the only function to remove a leader. They do not need coup to remove a leader from his/her position.

I don't agree with having mobs sell Merchant equipment. It takes away the need for players to interact with one another and sometimes work together. Even if that interaction is "Hey I want to buy this" and do some negotiation because they think a merchant is a cheapskate. That interaction existing is a good thing in my eyes.

Kyz and I share a lot of the same vision of the Merchant/Syndicate family. Merchant is the legitimate business front for the organization if characters role play it as such or not. It is separate from Syndicate but they are both one organization. The leader of that organization is the face for both Merchant and Syndicate. Therefore if one arm of the organization is failing the leader is to blame. That isn't to say a Merchant leader cannot delegate an elder to handle the Syndicate side or a Syndicate leader delegate a merchant to handle merchant business. If the delegate fails and the leader fails to right the ship, the leader has failed. That is the role of a leader.

@Tantangel in the future please be careful as to what you share about current in game events.

 

[Cephirus]

I also do not think Merchant should change from being associated with Syndicate.  I think there are other means that should be explored to address Newbie retention and acquisition.

 

I do like Lloth's idea, but perhaps I misunderstood the implementation. I saw it as having a mob created ONLY accessible to Merchants for them to store rare items they want to sell. This would also help to alleviate rare counts. The second part would be that since Merchants are storing rares with this mob, any other Merchant can obtain a rare from that mob and sell it to someone else. Essentially making it a way to communally pool and sell those rares as Merchants. Instead of relying on the stock of any Merchant players you see, anyone of them can sell you those rares and profit from it. 

 

I also think that having Merchants be able to create armors for themselves ONLY, that would rival the top gear would be great as well. That way it is not a compromise to sell those top items and weaken their ability to effectively gather gear.