Kieran H-Drow BMG vs Thorgil Ogre War Knight

['tarako]

https://pastebin.com/cNtH3GU7

 

Psi vs lotus scourge. Missed the first bit, but it's just them landing poison and 2 combat rounds. In this log I have done everything I could to him as a psi, using a staff for defense, and around 800 magic ac. (I realize hp is low, but I was testing ac based builds)

Look at my total defense, and I wasn't dirted a single time. So you're telling me I should have to soak up potentially 50% of my hp before being given a chance to flee at all. And when I do, they can just walk west and do it again? How can you possibly be saying I'm the one who's idiotic.

[Trick]

Why are you getting so mad dude..?

Kinda being a dick too. 

[Anume]

Be nice guys or we'll unwrap the ban hammer and give you a break. Discuss politely.

['tarako]

The 

12 minutes ago, Manual Labour said:

So did the bmg take 10 or 15 % of their max HP in damage a round or not? Before we change the subject please confirm the answer to this question  (ps. I already know the answer)

How bad is your math? You counted yourself. 3 rounds above 100 damage (10% of his health is 103 hp) so two rounds at 10%and there was one at 14.6%. So yes, he did lose between 10 and 15% of his max hp. 

 

Seriously, you counted the rounds yourself and still forgot to maths?

[Manual Labour]

so the other 33 rounds are meaningless? lmao

ok I finally see your point, no mage should ever take 10% of their max hp in a round, ever. Gotcha.

['tarako]

So you're saying he should be dealing 10 to 15% of his max hp every round?

[Manual Labour]

Tarako. Once EQ is balanced do you think wimpy is still in an ok place? Also, in melee vs melee where one is much stronger than the other, is it ok or even needed that the weaker melee uses wimpy?

I understand you are saying wimpy is needed as a crutch to avoid damage which is too high currently, I get that.

Can you try and see my point of view though, which is an isolated view of wimpy and how it works?

I am not arguing the game is balanced, I am arguing that in a vacuum wimpy is broken and abusable, which is why I never use it, even when it would have benefited me.

For the record I have played 1 melee character in this environment, and I was not even OP.

I have been on the receiving end of this imbalance as much as you or anyone else.

I still think wimpy is broken and needs to be fixed. Again I am talking about wimpy in a vacuum.

['tarako]

I already said that I personally feel it's gonna be a bit too high after the balance. 49% is alot. But your solution isn't a good one at all. I've got logs of me missing out on killing at vamp because of wimpy, but  I blamed myself for not lagging instead of wimpy getting him out of combat. Until eq is balanced I don't think we need to support any big changes period, espescially ones that inherently affect mages much more

[Manual Labour]

What is my solution in your opinion? The one that is not good at all.

You think that balancing wimpy is to lower the % HP it can be used, I do not think that addresses the core problem with wimpy.

Also, in your example of you blaming yourself for not lagging, what if you don't have the ability to lag?

The majority of what I perceive as wimpy abuse is being used by classes that cannot be lagged anyway.

edit: I am also curious how you will react to these big changes. I suspect they are going overboard with the saves nerfs and we are going to see the scales tip entirely the other way. How will you react to this? Will you say good, it's time for the era of the mage, or will you say no the balance went too far and is imbalanced the other way. Basically I am curious if you are advocating for true balance or revenge for mages?

[Venom]

Moar drama. 

[Magick]

1 hour ago, Manual Labour said:

I am unsure what determines who gets to hit first in a given round but here we see the BMG goes first in round 2.

Fairly sure that's whoever is higher on the who list.  IE: the last person loaded into the MUD.
It's anecdotal at the moment though and I still need to do more testing.  Testing vs mobs, if I load in and start hunting, I've been seeing that I'll strike first.  After the are resets, I'm now attacking second.

['tarako]

You want wimpy to essentially wait til a full round of combat has passed, which means you can't be below 300 hp ever or you run a fair risk of just dying outright, much more likely if you have a vuln. That just isn't feasible man. I don't know how else to say it 

['tarako]

I also believe combat rounds are determined by who initiates first, then order of appearance in the room for chatmies, not sure how mirror image interacts there

[Mmm Coffee]

I'll drop my two cents here on this PK log. 

I'm not sure what weapon Thorgil's "divine power" was in this fight, but we know the primary hand is a whip.  And BMG's know whip.  That really cut into your offense here.  I understand that's your weapon lore, but you realized pretty quickly that locking him was a bad idea.  Fight BMG's with shield/axe or shield/flail or magic polearm and switch to dual weapons when it makes sense.  I've made macros in the past that effectively dual wield, murder, wear shield so you can get the best of both worlds - burst damage, then defense.  Thorgil was being very offensive here and that mentality lost the fight.  Had you been a bit more defensive to begin with  (use detect magic, look Kieran), you might have been able to time the fall of his force field or some other important spell.  With how easy he was dispelling you, nobody would have faulted you for getting out of there, getting another 10-15 mental saves and re-engaging.

When Kieran's wimpy was kicking, why not shoot him with magic arrows after he flees?  Two free damage shots with nothing taken to yourself.

[Manual Labour]

25 minutes ago, Magick said:

Fairly sure that's whoever is higher on the who list.  IE: the last person loaded into the MUD.
It's anecdotal at the moment though and I still need to do more testing.  Testing vs mobs, if I load in and start hunting, I've been seeing that I'll strike first.  After the are resets, I'm now attacking second.

I'd be curious to hear the results.

25 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

You want wimpy to essentially wait til a full round of combat has passed, which means you can't be below 300 hp ever or you run a fair risk of just dying outright, much more likely if you have a vuln. That just isn't feasible man. I don't know how else to say it 

Yes, I do not think it is balanced that a round is cut in half, ever. I believe there are better solutions to class balance. I also think you are exaggerating again which I will address later in my post.

22 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

I also believe combat rounds are determined by who initiates first, then order of appearance in the room for chatmies, not sure how mirror image interacts there

This is definitely not true, at least beyond the initial round. In the snippet I posted previously in this thread Thogril initiated combat and in the second round the BMG got all his attacks off first, then fled via wimpy (my big beef with it).

I am unsure if this is true or not but I have a hazy memory of dex having something to do with who attacks first in rounds subsequent to the first, or hell maybe it's luck?

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Here is my issue Tarako, I believe you are being contradictory.

You have said flat out, "Mages Need Wimpy." Then in the same breath you said wimpy had nothing to so with this particular fight, and that the BMG won without it. So my question is, do ALL mages NEED wimpy? Do Necromancers need it? Do Invokers need it? Do BMGs need it? If the answer is no, then how do we decide who should get to use wimpy and who shouldn't because the classes that don't need it can abuse it. This is why I propose we balance classes and fix wimpy at the same time, I do not think wimpy needs to be used to help balance the game.

On melee chars I have taken huge damage in 1 round from Necros and Vokers, does that mean I should need wimpy to fight them and that it would be imbalanced if I couldn't use it?

I guess where we fundamentally disagree is on the question of "should rounds ever be interrupted", my stance is no, your stance is yes. We both want the same thing, wimpy aside, which is a more balanced game for all classes. But clearly we disagree on how to get there.

[tassinvegeta]

@Manual LabourReally glad you have the energy to argue these points of view for those of us on this side of the argument lol. Also nice job on lightning your tone on the matter. It makes a much more positive impact when we're all positive and treat each other with respect 👍

@TarakoThe other side of the argument that mages need them is mostly the result of other aspects of the game. Some of which have already been implemented and some of which is currently being worked on. Disclaimer: Imho ofcourse  

[egreir]

My primary was a magical axe @Mmm Beer

[egreir]

Also I am hasted in a lot of this fight. I was extremely prepared. 

[egreir]

How can anyone say the mage won without it when it saved him at least four murder rounds.  Which by his own admission is enough to almost kill him alone. Tarako buddy. You’re wrong. Just walk away lol

[Celerity]

1 hour ago, 'tarako said:

I also believe combat rounds are determined by who initiates first, then order of appearance in the room for chatmies, not sure how mirror image interacts there

Thought it was simply dex-based.

['tarako]

That's my point. You're saying that you should be able to flee murder your wuay to easy wins by just being a glass cannon, and stacking hit dam with offensive weapons. How can you think that is a balanced solution. Ironically, I don't even use wimpy because I find it unreliable and it hurts me more than it helps because of how I play. You can see that in my log as well. What I am saying is there is a disturbing trend of everyone screaming nerf the second they disagree with something. 

[Mmm Coffee]

35 minutes ago, egreir said:

My primary was a magical axe @Mmm Beer

Sorry - it's hard to tell which hand is which in the log.  Definitely a great axe to use.  If you were high enough level to use haste, I think you would have gotten more mileage out of a detect magic and your very good chasing skills.  Don't forget that you have chasing skills which a lot of players (myself included) are merely average at.

[Manual Labour]

2 minutes ago, Celerity said:

Thought it was simply dex-based.

Apparently it is based on login. Which is so ridiculous.

['tarako]

Wimpy is why the mage didn't die. It is not why thorgil lost. Thorgil lost by overextending. No amount of wimpy flees ever won a pk, it only makes losing harder.

[Manual Labour]

4 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

What I am saying is there is a disturbing trend of everyone screaming nerf the second they disagree with something. 

I don't think this is what is happening here. There have been complaints about wimpy for years now.

The issue is not that people think mages deserve to stand there and die.

The issue is not that people think melee should always have an advantage.

The issue IS that the majority of players here do not think it is good game design to have rounds interrupted midway through, when a normal flee cannot do this.

AGAIN, many of us believe balance can be achieved while also fixing wimpy.