Gokhan

[egreir]

Deleted him, thanks for the RP/PK with those who knew him.  If anyone has monk logs in the past 6 months, I'd love to take a look.  Thanks!

['tarako]

I laughed so hard when. I read your desc lol. 

 

Curious why you let it go so quickly though

[egreir]

Thanks I thought for sure I'd get some RP or dragon out of that.

I deleted because I believe monks have taken an inadvertent nerf.  I have logs of fire giants fleeing from trips after 1 round, etc....why bother working for that air thrash when your trip is gonna hurt you more than your opponent? And if fire giants can flee after 1 round a lot of times, imagine same size or smaller opponents...which is more often what you'll face in Savant as a WM monk hopeful.

Would love to be proven wrong with some other logs, but the limited ones I can see don't look much better...and other peoples are telling me they've complained about trip lag before also.

['tarako]

I had slith tail trips fire the round before they could bash and it didn't even delay the bash a single round. I just thought trip was way less reliable than bash slam or rush is all. I didn't play much melee before the last couple years so I don't really have a control to go off of

[egreir]

Bash is supposed to help big guys vs small guys

trip is supposed to help small guys vs big guys

 

monk trips however, were designed to be special.  notice the leg sweep message not the standard trip message? I believe something got changed in the last few years, perhaps inadvertently, but it's definitely not worth it anymore from what I've seen.  work your ass off trying to get an air thrash to land, because that's supposed to be a very powerful monk trip coming up.....and voila, you just watch them run off lol

[Magick]

Monks just get a different message when tripping.  Should be nothing more than that.

As for the 1-round lag on a giant, it's possible.  Low, low chance, but it's possible.  Much like it's possible to hit 1-round of lag on a faerie as an enlarged fire giant.

[egreir]

It wasn't done for flavor, I can almost promise you that. It was done back then because monk trips were a more powerful version of other classes.  That's just logic and experience speaking, not fact, mind you.  What IS a fact is that back in 2.0 days or even early 3.0, monk trips made you scared, they were death sentences.  Now they are just unreliable.

I tripped locked plenty of same size and smaller enemies back in the day for countless rounds. What used to be the norm is now the exception. Something very obviously changed along the way.

[FatMike]

I've found that if you land 2-3 bashes successfully then the fourth is either a miss or no lag. I seem to remember some discussion about it a long time ago where maybe something was changed but with my memory I wouldn't trust it. I'm assuming the same thing goes for trip. 

[Manual Labour]

That is something different. Bash and Bodyslam can only get you 4 times in a row, the 5th is a guaranteed miss.

I am not sure if this applies to trip, grapple, ranger throw etc...

Individual trip lag, especially monk trip, seems to pale in comparison to what it once was.

I played a monk recently too and I frequently tripped giants for only 1 round of lag.

I remember back in the day, even on normal sized toons, getting trip locked for days by monks.

[Magick]

37 minutes ago, egreir said:

It wasn't done for flavor, I can almost promise you that. It was done back then because monk trips were a more powerful version of other classes.  That's just logic and experience speaking, not fact, mind you.  What IS a fact is that back in 2.0 days or even early 3.0, monk trips made you scared, they were death sentences.  Now they are just unreliable.

I tripped locked plenty of same size and smaller enemies back in the day for countless rounds. What used to be the norm is now the exception. Something very obviously changed along the way.

If it was changed, it was either done and not made public (change logs to 2006 show nothing), or it was prior to that.  Which the released version of the code would reflect the post-change information as it was done about that time.

As I'm looking at it (the old code, subject to fallibility), chance to trip is modified by size.  The bigger you are, the higher the chance it'll land.  The bonus is 5% per size category above medium.
The lag on trip is a number of rounds between one and the victim's size, or two.  Whichever is smallest.  While this doesn't give more lag to larger creatures, it does increase the chance of lagging them 2 rounds as they get bigger.  Someone that is size 4 (should be medium +2) would have a 25% chance to get one round of lag and a 75% chance for 2.

Bash, by the way, has a similar mechanic in that it's between 1 and 4 rounds, weighted toward 4 the greater the size difference between you and your victim.

As for the tripping for countless rounds, this did happen, too:

10 minutes ago, FatMike said:

I've found that if you land 2-3 bashes successfully then the fourth is either a miss or no lag. I seem to remember some discussion about it a long time ago where maybe something was changed but with my memory I wouldn't trust it. 

Change log 2013:

• Bash, bodyslam, trample, and other lagging commands have a higher chance to fail when used in succession.

 

['tarako]

I've 100% lagged giants less than a full round with an autotrip

[egreir]

And I’ve 100% lag locked just about every race in the game with monk trip.  

Theres a lot of changes that happen without us knowing, and there’s always the chance of changing something that inadvertently affects other things. 

All I’m saying is that I’ve played a boat load of monks going back over 18 years and there is a distinct difference between what a monk trip is now vs what is was back then. Can’t tell you why when or how, but the fact is SOMETHING is different. Fleeing after one round on a monk trip would have been a jaw dropping moment in PK, now it’s just whatever. 

I remember when trample got changed for monks.  So it’s not like there’s never been changes around it.  

 

Anyway didn’t wanna get into this publically. I’m told nothing has changed, so it is what it is and that’s fine.  Dime a dozen on level 50s, not mad at all, just one of those things.  

[Ulmusdorn]

I mean... Ere has told you nothing has changed for monks in regard to trip at all.

So I don't know where the conspiracy theory comes from, but you're right, Ere is directly targeting just your characters... and making minor adjustments that just annoy and underpower you. (Cue the x-files music).

[egreir]

When did I ever say anything that he was targeting me? Your comment is an overreaction.  Multiple people confirm that monk trip does not seem the same as it did years ago. Erelei is not God, I don't have to take his word as gospel. If he says he didn't change anything, that's fine - but the fact remains that monk trip is different somehow. Not just to me, but to others. If you think that's me having a conspiracy, you're wrong. It's backed up by logs, firstly. I'll refrain from further comment as it really isn't a huge deal, but don't act like I'm straight out of the looney bin, been playing this game long enough to know when something is different.

[Ulmusdorn]

Mine was said in jest, but it seems to have effected you. Good luck on your next. (maybe I'll include more smileys next time.)

[egreir]

Smileys.  Can’t go wrong with smileys. 

[Trick]

Sarcasm is so hard to see sometimes... good thing we had the X Files music to help set the tone though.

Gokhan was a sissy anyways. He didn’t have his potential unlocked, get super Saiyan, or use the Potara earrings. What a scrub.

Make Beerin or Jirus.. maybe Piccageta?

['tarako]

Ring ring 

Ring ring

 

911, what is your emergency

I just witnessed a murder

[Ulmusdorn]

I thought the X-Files was a give away. My bad. 

👽👾👽👽👾👽👽👾👽👽👾👽👽👾👽👽👾👽👽👾👽👽👾👽

[Erelei]

The whole “nothing was changed” talk wasn’t enough I guess. 

 

Conspiracy theory for the win. 

[egreir]

if every time you put 2+2 into a calculator it say it equals 5, but the calculator company tells you nothing is wrong....what are you supposed to believe? You say nothing has changed, and I believe you, but at the same time - something has. So that means you either didn't change anything and it happened before you/since my last monks, or you did change something ELSE that inadvertently/unknowingly changed it. Either way, I've moved on. It's not a conspiracy, I'm not the only one who has noticed. You've got bigger fish to fry than an issue you don't think exists, I respect that. I was asked why I deleted, I answered.  Wasn't trying to rehash the same stuff

['tarako]

Well. What was your luck stat, what was theirs, what was size difference, how big is your sample size vs how many minimum lag trips did you get, vs what races. You need alot of testing to get out of "bad end of variance" testing. 

[egreir]

The fact that there even IS that much variance today vs back then is kinda the point though  a Fg can bash you for huge lag but a monk trip only lags a FG for one round? Back in the day if a monk got a trip on you as a giant and you weren’t outdamaging him, good luck getting out.  But now, good luck to the monk keeping your non flight having ass around

[tassinvegeta]

Darn now I can't get the X-files theme outta my head every time I see this thread. 

[Magick]

1 hour ago, egreir said:

The fact that there even IS that much variance today vs back then is kinda the point though  a Fg can bash you for huge lag but a monk trip only lags a FG for one round? Back in the day if a monk got a trip on you as a giant and you weren’t outdamaging him, good luck getting out.  But now, good luck to the monk keeping your non flight having ass around

The monk's trip being special, I (and others) were informed that it ignores your opponent's perks should they have lag reduction, so I'll give you that.  If there was more (and I don't think there was before the conversation diverged into trample), I don't recall it and am not going to read back.

 

Were you aware that an enlarged FG has a chance to bash a faerie for 1 round of lag?  That's right!  About a 14% chance.  That percentage only goes up the larger your opponent is.

Faeries get a 50/50 chance of zero or one round of lag when they're tripped where as enlarged FGs get a 75% chance to be lagged two rounds, a 25% chance for one.

To expand on that:

WAIT_STATE2(victim, UMIN(2,number_range(victim->size,1)) * PULSE_VIOLENCE)

Faerie size is 0, human is 2, enlarged giant is 4.

Random number between size and one.  For faeries, this is 0-1.  For FGs, it's 3-1.  If the roll is greater or equal to two, it's two rounds.  Otherwise it's the roll (usually one).

The code block has literally not changed since 2001.

If you're just noticing that your opponent "frequently" has one round of lag, that sounds like the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon.  If you throw out what the head coder has told you in favor of your memory of past events, that's closer to confirmation bias.

 

1 hour ago, 'tarako said:

Well. What was your luck stat, what was theirs, what was size difference, how big is your sample size vs how many minimum lag trips did you get, vs what races. You need alot of testing to get out of "bad end of variance" testing. 

All good questions, though trip lag (different from land chance) is primarily their size and an RNG, as shown above.  The luck stat plays no part except in land chance.