Warmaster inductee period

['tarako]

Why does it even exist? I never really understood what it's purpose is. It is arguably the most demoralizing cabal inductee period, and forces you to break the Cardinal pk rule. In the premier pvp training cabal. Never understood it myself

[Magick]

If you find this period demoralizing in any fashion, I think you're looking at things wrong. 

The way I see it is while yes, death should be avoided, you're not going avoid it all the time. Take the death, don't let it upset you. What do you lose? Some items? You'll get them back eventually.  As a WM inductee, you don't even lose the life from your total anyway, so this is an exception to the rule. Meaning the only demoralizing part of this is you losing shines and the little chance you have of winning.

Winning isn't always an option and losing can still be fun. 

It's not like you can't win though. Not as easy, but catch someone with their pants down and you're at least starting on even footing. You may even impress someone enough to leap out of I quickly. 

 

[Ulmusdorn]

Also many savants won’t loot you.  Inductee is a bit of fun really  you’re proving your dedication to a pure form of martial combat.

They shouldn’t loot anyway. Otherwise that’s just boring imo. 

 

[Kyzarius]

I have fought so many WM's

Frankly the inductee period for warmaster is not only annoying to them.  But to savants as well. 

I dont join the mage vs melee pk gala so i can roflstomp some people as they charge my altar over and over and over, and try to murder me with. O consequence.  To be honest it's never been fun on the savant side. 

Then no matter what the WM always build up feelings of animosity from being beat again and again. I've played as a few WM's as well.  And frankly it's never been fun to be I.  It's always been a necessary evil you have to just stomach to play in the cabal.  

It is especially frustrating for barbarian chars.  You forgoe all spells for 10 hours while you get your ass handed to you.  Then rank and, can use spells again?

I would say you choose your sub at I.  If you want to go Glad.  Then the inductee period Is the same as now.  But if you go barb, you shouldn't have to serve the time.  It's not your path to give up spells...

Though frankly I would be fine if we just nixed the whole die over and over period all together. 

[Trick]

Inductee sucks. 

You're fodder for malforms/sader weapons(if evil) and you can't even bother GETTING equipment because higher end stuff you need sanctuary/stance to complete and if you do manage to get it you spend the rest of the 10 hours either dying and losing it or ONLY fighting the necessary challenges with friends or characters you know won't kill you/loot then you log off at the first sign of a Savant.

I've fought as an Inductee and even WON PKs as an inductee. I've beaten Savant Trusteds as an Inductee as well as my favorite PK vs Garumba(F0xx's original rework bard Syndi. Very proud of this fight.)

The biggest struggle wasn't even sanctuary, imo. It was when I DID finally manage the upperhand ca 'invis was instant safety.

 

If we want the "trial by fire" period, make it 5 hours instead of 10 hours for promotion. 

[Celerity]

The inductee gimping is silly. Why only one cabal? If we want some extreme (and it is extreme!) 'trial by fire', it needs to be reciprocal across all cabals. However, we already have a 'trial by fire': facing established characters. Further gimping beyond that already severe disadvantage is overkill.

The inductee period doesn't offer anything as far as PK training. It isn't a teaching moment in the 'teaching cabal'. Inductees are already severely disadvantaged...why do we go out of our way to make it even worse? All inductees in all cabals already face tough enough odds by virtue of their positions.

The real reason WM inductee is like this is because of history. WM candidates before the 2.0 cabal system had to use no magic from character generation. This was carried over as the 'inductee' period and removed in the pre-cabal period. Old Warmaster had a different RP ethos in a different time.

It doesn't need to be reduced. It needs to be eliminated entirely.

[Venom]

The way I see it? Rank to 50 as quick as possible, go in WM as inductee start training after that, gear up do several challenges and you are almost ready for M. Also you can simply die everywhere for gearing for example, can test yourself for slow pass of Offices, Yards and/or Willow palm ... just go for it, dying is nothing to you  Don't know if you can battle one of the bosses as berserker in rage? Just go for it, die and once you get stance/aura you will know how good you will be with it.

[Twinblades713]

14 minutes ago, Venom said:

The way I see it? Rank to 50 as quick as possible, go in WM as inductee start training after that, gear up do several challenges and you are almost ready for M. Also you can simply die everywhere for gearing for example, can test yourself for slow pass of Offices, Yards and/or Willow palm ... just go for it, dying is nothing to you  Don't know if you can battle one of the bosses as berserker in rage? Just go for it, die and once you get stance/aura you will know how good you will be with it.

Here’s a real WM.

[CauthontheGambler]

I cannot remember who was the IMM of WM at the time (I believe it was Mhalador). But he made Clan memebers fight each other or other WM's to have a chance to apply for WM. There have been a few times that you had to fight savants to apply as well. But I bring that up because to me that fits the image of WM. I made combat religion cleric that would go and challenge WM. Regardless if they Inductee I would fight them with every spell on. Because if they could not stand the beginning 10hrs of hazing they were not fit to be a WM. I think of it as a WM trail by fire type of deal. Prove to us that you have what it takes  get through this. Will you fall and back up or will you stay down and give up.

This is just my opinion. 

[hotspring monkey]

I had a majorly positive record as inductee in the past. I did piss on T savants like it was nothing. 

But I'm a man.

Enough of cock waving.

In truth the 10 irl hour inductee period sucks ass. Though, the dk's need the free malforms. Otherwise they resort to OOC and ask their friends to log in with their shelved trash and feed on those.

If you want to keep the WM inductee time special - make a quest like some quest races have. 

"You need to wander to the Val Mirans dump and kiss the legs of the statue of Kelmi."

"Challenge three people to a fight." 

"Find the shrine of Combat. Know the answer to 1+1 question and get the right to join the true ranks of WM"

[Celerity]

Congratulations and welcome to the UFC! As a mixed martial artist in the world class professional league, you'll be fighting the very best. But since you are newly inducted, we are going to throw you in the ring with a blindfold and your arm tied to your leg for your first ten professional fights. Never mind that you'll be fighting pro fighters who are far more experienced than you with a proven record.

If you can't handle that, you don't have what it takes to be in the UFC! By the way, only members from your cabal will have this inductee disadvantage. Good luck! It will be fun*!

--

Welcome to the army! Now that you've been selected for the special forces, you'll be going to battle soon. Since you're green, we'll send you out there with only a knife against the real enemy in a real battle. If you can't handle being killed repeatedly, you don't have what it takes to be a soldier! Those weaklings on the other side give their elite soldiers guns. That is what they are so pitiful. Don't worry, it will be fun* and you'll learn ACTUAL, USEFUL battle tactics from being extremely handicapped in a real fight**.

*Fun not guaranteed. Statements by staff members are not necessarily reflective of reality.

**Or you won't learn a damn thing as you die a frustrating, pitiful death

--

Ridiculousness aside, the time for 'hazing' and 'trials by fire' is BEFORE induction. When you are in a cabal, you are in the big competitive league, or in the case of FL lore, an actual serious war. You aren't vying for competitive selection...you ARE the selection. You aren't in training camp, having only 'safe battles'.

Death is to be avoided at all costs as per the rules of FL (why is this rule so selectively enforced?). Sending recruits into battle against a credible threat is assured death. This is plain stupid.

[Twinblades713]

Unpopular opinion here but some people actually like the challenge, the hardship, the difficulty. It makes getting to use close combat, forms, deathblow etc that much sweeter when you can spank those who took advantage of your Inductee status. I don't mind if management wants to change whatever aspect of this game to suit its players better, but I've never once regretted going through WM because of the Inductee period. It's a time for yolo moments and doing your best. As I've mentioned in previous posts, sometimes the hardship is the journey. We could take away hunger and thirst entirely, we could start at T in cabals, we can move EQ closer and closer to hometowns. We can always do things to increase "quality of life." Isn't the point of Inductee that you should prove you are worth being a Master of War? I mean maybe FL is a bit antiquated, but that's part of its charm for me. I play League because there is no development and you can jump into combat and be fighting in 5 minutes. I play FL to live out a character's life. If I choose the Warmaster path, I expect to be tested. And I did actually very well with my feral thief. I went roughly 50/50 on Inductee challenges and I wasn't even close to Danpher status.

[egreir]

I think it should be auto promote after x amount of unique challenges (not vs same opponent)

['tarako]

As per looting. I've only played 1 wm. But I most definitely was looted by everyone that killed me, and the existing wms played games to see who could hit me the hardest. It was 10 completely unplayable hours of losing to detect invis if I ever came close to turning it around. 

 

I just am of the opinion the need for someone to prove themselves for 10 hours of being in a situation where you should never ever be at 50 isn't really needed. 

[Fool_Hardy]

13 minutes ago, egreir said:

I think it should be auto promote after x amount of unique challenges (not vs same opponent)

I personally like that rematches count more toward one's next promotion. It has two benefits, first it inspires characters to try again, and it supports the system itself when the overall number of WM drops.

Just my opinion.

[Kyzarius]

It's a damn game.  Prove yourself? Come the hell on.

 

[Rygothran]

23 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

It's a damn game.  Prove yourself? Come the hell on.

 

Different folks get different things from games. Nothing wrong with it.

As far as the WM thing, I really don't have a position. I'd be just as fine removing it as keeping it in place. Never even gave it a thought one way or the other before this post.

[Erelei]

When inducted into WM, you'll now be automatically Trusted, since you've already proven yourself by joining the cabal.

^{You're welcome.}

[Kyzarius]

ab·surd·i·ty

/əbˈsərdədē,əbˈzərdədē/

 

noun

1. the quality or state of being ridiculous or wildly unreasonable.

[Erelei]

sar·casm

/ˈsärˌkazəm/

noun

noun: sarcasm; plural noun: sarcasms

1. the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

   "his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment"

[Celerity]

Is "mocking or conveying contempt" towards the playerbase really the best way to approach this?

[Twinblades713]

Sometimes you can’t win. There’s a new post every week about how to make something easier. I don’t have a problem with that by itself but if it’s not met with open arms by everyone let alone management, then we start criticizing them. I mean we’ve lost imm presence in discord for bitching. I’d hope we can draw that line. WM Inductee is a fairly stupid location to have this issue as well. I don’t think I will post in this thread again but damn, can we pick actually important issues to fix? I’ve never met a newbie that quit from getting into a cabal, maybe we should improve our outreach to newer players and expand on levels 1-10/15 to keep them around. 

[Erelei]

Honestly guys, it's called humor.

Continue discussing as you'd like; many people here have a lot of points against the Inductee period.

I don't ignore you guys - I never have.

@Celerity you know better.

['tarako]

I mean I laughed at the joke. I'm just curious if there is any deep seated lore behind it, like the original wms devised this test for only the most dedicated to make it. Nothing in help wm details it nor does any help file you get access to when you join wm

[Pali]

5 hours ago, 'tarako said:

I'm just curious if there is any deep seated lore behind it, like the original wms devised this test for only the most dedicated to make it.

As Celerity alluded to, I'm pretty sure it's largely a relic from the original Warmaster ethos that was 100% anti-magic.  During the beta and 1.0 periods, WM wannabes were expected to never use magic - back then, if you wanted to be a WM, you didn't use sanc vials, protection potions, gyvels, city gates, city healers, or any other "magic" items (excepting eq with the magical tag), and you were expected to disavow consumables and other magic like this from the moment your character was rolled onward.  Entering the level 30 PK range and having 2-3 qrace wannabes looking for PKs there every time you logged on?  Good luck - you do it without sanc, protection, detect invis, etc., all for the hope that when you later apply to Warmaster you'll be accepted.  The reasoning here was that 1.0 Warmasters were dedicated to the eradication of magic use altogether, based on the belief that use of magic was inherently corruptive and would be deleterious on both an individual and societal level in the long term, and so anyone who was willing to taint themselves by using magic wasn't worthy.  WM wannabes didn't group with mages to level up, and ANY mage was fair game for a WM or a WM wannabe to kill on sight, because of the belief that magic use was inherently wrong.  Divine spellcasters got something of a pass, as lore-wise it isn't the communer creating the effect but rather the communer's god interceding on their behalf, but WMs still tended to look down on them for requiring divine aid rather than rising to the challenge as individuals.

 

Compared to a restriction on magic item use from the moment a character was rolled onward, the 2.0 inductee period is much less of a trial, and lore-wise I view it as a sort of trial-by-fire for new members to prove their dedication.  I don't know that it flows from the modern WM ethos as well as the 1.0 restrictions did from the 1.0 WM ethos, as all 1.0 WMs were expected to be fanatically anti-magic while modern WMs dropped that angle and are largely focused around a loose concept of self-perfection, but it's worth keeping in mind that becoming a WM used to suck a lot more than it does now.