Warmaster inductee period

[Manual Labour]

I am on the fence with this issue.

On the one hand it's kinda cool and unique and since you don't lose any real lives it is not really punishing per se.

On the other hand it forces at least 10 hours of not being able to really play the game on you. These days a lot of people are usually fully trained and even reasonably decked by the time they hit 50. Then you suddenly have this period of time where you are at the mercy of everyone else. Now of course you can approach the I period of time as a time to just have fun and let loose, but if you are a serious character with serious equipment it is probably not worth playing recklessly, especially if Savant is in a good place, all the work you have done to get ready for PK at 50 can be undone in a moment, then you have to wait for M before you can even bother re-equipping.

There are plenty of people who will take advantage of you as an Inductee, and it is pretty anti fun I think.

I know some people have done well as I, and of course if you are a thief it's a lot easier since you can be stealthy and do other things to level the playing field. Other classes do not have the same luxury.

[Fool_Hardy]

When this started there typically were 30+ players online. Which given that most had alts meant a dozen WM hopefuls. Most of whom would give up. Remember that back then saves were harder to come by, and many players were ignorant of simple strategies used today.

Those of us from the old days can remember squires as well. We no longer see the squires. I may be wrong but the squires may be able to hide their affiliation. WM and Savant can not. I think this is the reason for the death not counting on inductees. That said, perhaps Savant needs a similar protection for their inductees. I mean seriously the have all the time in the world to learn what the War Masters did to accomplish it.

Just thinking out loud.

[f0xx]

I am tired of seeing "other cabals/races/classes don't have this, so this shouldn't either".

You want unique stuff and mechanics, but then you are annoyed when they are unique.

@Erelei's sarcasm was spot on.

[Trick]

2 hours ago, f0xx said:

I am tired of seeing "other cabals/races/classes don't have this, so this shouldn't either".

You want unique stuff and mechanics, but then you are annoyed when they are unique.

@Erelei's sarcasm was spot on.

People want unique, not negative. I’ve seen more WM Inductees quit that character than I have any other. We should be focused on promoting a positive experience and if the majority of the PBase expresses that WM inductee period is not that, then it should be considered.

 

[Manual Labour]

How long did WM have a Leader and 2 Elders, during that time how many savants rage quit at Inductee?

Now it is the reverse. Savant is full, has 3 or more Trusteds, melee EQ is down and WM is nearly empty.

Of course a WM Inductee is going to get scorched by the current Savant lineup.

Now is this balance? I dunno... Just seems like one extreme to another.

[Trick]

That’s not due to Savant inductee not having access to basic PK necessities though. 

[Manual Labour]

True, but it certainly feels futile at times, being an Inductee vs Trusteds and Up.

Granted Savant I has more tools than WM I, but it can feel just as futile for them I am sure.

[English lad]

I'm with Tarako on this one - I'd like to understand what the purpose is.

"Because it's always been that way" Isn't a good enough reason anymore IMO.  Design choices like this should have a purpose, and should provide a positive experience for players.  Muds have a dreadful reputation for feature for feature's sake - because a coder / imm / whatever thought it would be a 'cool idea'.  Anything that isn't adding something to gameplay, or player experience needs to be rethought IMO.

[Trick]

1 hour ago, Manual Labour said:

True, but it certainly feels futile at times, being an Inductee vs Trusteds and Up.

Granted Savant I has more tools than WM I, but it can feel just as futile for them I am sure.

That's ANY cabal though. Knight Inductee vs Nexus E/L. Trib v Watcher. Any of it.

None of them are put at a further disadvantage like WM Inductee is.

[Kyzarius]

2 hours ago, Manual Labour said:

True, but it certainly feels futile at times, being an Inductee vs Trusteds and Up.

Granted Savant I has more tools than WM I, but it can feel just as futile for them I am sure.

No other cabal comes close to crippling their inductees.  Actually no other cabal TAKES anything away from inductees.  WM takes the I vs T matchup and makes it worse for their members. 

[Trick]

We could just as easily change this into something really cool for the more "extreme" players here that want this challenge.

When inducted into Warmaster you get a cabal selection choice(similar to subcabal choice) that asks:

" Do you wish to test your inner fire by participating in the Trial by Fire? "

You then have 10 hours of the no-magic Inductee phase, gain say 3-5RP at the end of the 10 hours, and a quest added to your list: " Completed the Trial by Fire. "

 

Now, you have the choice. What's funny about this idea(if implemented) is everyone will PROBABLY do the trial by fire because we are all perfectionist, power gaming, RP fiends that want that little token saying we did it, lol.

[FatMike]

We could just leave it alone. No cabal (that I have been a part of) gets anything at Inductee and if you give WM something you should spread the wealth and give something to all of them. It sucks for sure to not be able to use sanc but it's only 10 hours. Hell, I usually wait to delete till I get rolled with stance......

[f0xx]

4 hours ago, Trick said:

People want unique, not negative ..... We should be focused on promoting a positive experience ....

Hugging and holding hands is positive.

[Kyzarius]

1 hour ago, FatMike said:

We could just leave it alone. No cabal (that I have been a part of) gets anything at Inductee and if you give WM something you should spread the wealth and give something to all of them. It sucks for sure to not be able to use sanc but it's only 10 hours. Hell, I usually wait to delete till I get rolled with stance......

In this case, to be honest, it is more "making WM like the other cabals" not giving them something more.  In truth their Inductees get the shortest stick of the bunch. 

[FatMike]

1 hour ago, Kyzarius said:

In this case, to be honest, it is more "making WM like the other cabals" not giving them something more.  In truth their Inductees get the shortest stick of the bunch. 

I totally get it, been there many times. What would you give them to make them like others? Sub-cabal at I? Sanc/stance at I? I mean it sucks, really sucks but it ain't that bad. Like I said, it's worse when you have the same outcome at M as at I. Which again, have been there many times also. So if you give them sanc/stance at I and people still get rolled, then what? Trusted skills at I?

[Trick]

3 minutes ago, FatMike said:

I totally get it, been there many times. What would you give them to make them like others? Sub-cabal at I? Sanc/stance at I? I mean it sucks, really sucks but it ain't that bad. Like I said, it's worse when you have the same outcome at M as at I. Which again, have been there many times also. So if you give them sanc/stance at I and people still get rolled, then what? Trusted skills at I?

I think the exaggeration of saying Trusted skill at Inductee like you've said and @Erelei said(sarcastically) is exactly what @Kyzarius said earlier, absurd.  Why would you get rolled? You've access to sanctuary.. You shouldn't get absolutely rolled and if you DO then its a player skill/preparation issue and not a cabal gimping you issue. Totally different. 

That's not what's being proposed or even asked for. What is being asked for is the removal of a 10 hour period where you are basically expected to lose and get your butt kicked. From the perspective of someone that has had MANY WMs and even won a few fights as an inductee, the bigger issue is it cuts you off from the rest of the game. You can't effectively travel, get EQ, complete harder quests, etc. 

God forbid you're an inductee at the start of the month and you can't even kill Sai-Lam for a fingerbone.

Its just not fun. Its not. No one here has actually said they enjoy the Inductee period. 

[egreir]

I enjoy the inductee period

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

about as much as I enjoy anything, these days.

['tarako]

I didn't post in ideas to get it changed. I posted in newbie because I genuinely don't know how/why it was put in place. Was just curious because those deep seated customs can help secure foundations for future rp interactions with wms. I just really don't know much of the lore behind it. 

While it's frustrating getting wrecked, I don't really have many problems with. Eq is super easy to get now days, and you can pull out some shocking wins, so it gives you 10 hours to pull a bragging rights win out of your hat. 

[Rygothran]

59 minutes ago, Trick said:

Its just not fun. Its not. No one here has actually said they enjoy the Inductee period. 

I enjoy the inductee period.

I enjoy it for a couple reasons. First, I don't have the stress of needing some great suit to feel like I can compete. I assume I am going to die and lose gear so I feel free to lay it all out on the line without the suit. Typically I play very cautiously so it is nice for me to step out without fear or care.

Secondly, when you actually do well as inductee it is an awesome feeling. Even better when you are able to kill someone as an inductee. It feels great. To me a small price to pay. 

I believe I am the minority in this regard. I personally do not care if it changes or remains. Not a hill I really care to die on.

[Venom]

It depends, if you have big feeling and cannot accept a single dead, it is bad. But if you accept the way of Warmaster and possibly die and go further after that, it is enjoyable period

['tarako]

I mean I got shit on by elders and leaders using every buff while getting yelled at for using weapon cleave lol. They where not super interested in letting me do anything besides dirt rage and slam.

[Fool_Hardy]

I have only played one WM.

I used the inductee period to get my timing down. I knew I would not win many rounds, but I knew that once the skills began I could count on timing it right.

In the end I did not have a winning record. Who cared. I won several challenges, my game improved. And not just as a WM, but as a player in general.

Boot Camp sucks. But soldiers go through it all over the world. I had a positive experience with it. RPed with my brethren and just kept getting back up.

['tarako]

I mean full metal jacket shows the dangers of hazing the new guy lol

[FatMike]

So what we have here is something that doesn't need any changes actually. It sucks, it has always sucked but it is not that big a deal. You don't lose lives, you can use it to get better because you have nothing to lose unless some d-bag takes/sacrifices weapons/equipment and it shouldn't be anything that you can't get yourself unless you had some lucky group trips to places you can't get to alone.

[Celerity]

Ideally, you take what we intend and make it into a feature:

Do we want to sharply differentiate cabal onboarding (@f0xx)? Then let's do that correctly. Let's do it with direction and purpose, across the board. I don't think this was intended as a differentiator due to the history, but if that is the continuing reason for WM inductees to be treated differently, we can approach the situation and come up with a suitable design to do it well.  As is, this 'feature' does not adequately accomplish that purpose.

Do we want to create a trial or hazing experience (whether exclusive to WM or not)? Then let's go forth with that in mind. There are much better ways to accomplish that purpose than a simple gimp, ways that are more immersive, more fun, and more suited to that purpose. The induction period for WM currently fails in most metrics as a successful implementation of a 'challenge trial', especially for a game.

Do we want to encourage a more aggressive style of play with less consequence (whether exclusive to WM or not)? We can do that. Start with examining the rule-backed consequences in place and work from there. Again, the WM inductee period was not originally intended for this (no magic from history; no con loss due to severe handicap complaints), but we could make it fit this goal rather well, if that is our purpose.

Do we intend WM inductee to be a 'PK training zone'? Etc, etc, etc.

Starting to see a pattern here? What is the purpose of the WM inductee period as is? Let's get that answer then fit the feature to the purpose.

That's a win-win.

That clarified, we can't actually do anything until we have a purpose.

Like what was said earlier, the situation is a feature on a whim, based only on history and tweaked as a reaction to complaints. It has no true continuing purpose as is.

I see a lot of attempts to assign purposes and reasoning to that feature to justify it. I propose that we do it the right way: assign the feature to a purpose.

We'll have much better results.