Marcella SYNDICATE vs Haexis WARMASTER

[Twinblades713]

4 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

Breath saves, and orbs of recall is all I did

Saves literally didn’t matter at one point not very long ago, and try those blind. I mean I guess if you’re prepping to flee from the beginning, that’s a good way to win a fight. But I agree, once I stopped trying to win and started trying to merely survive, I did better. 

[tassinvegeta]

Dissonance lag + the rage vogue + ember/paralyze on weapon + veil song + cabal skills. Are there any other classes have so many ways to prevent you from getting out of combat? If not then it sounds like this may be the greatest source of the problem which is driving people crazy.

[Trick]

3 hours ago, Anonymous said:

@Trick, no threats, stating a fact. I did provide the logs which resulted in a few tone-downs. I refused to log on until it was fixed and my instruments were changed (3 weeks or so). Calling bards as they are now the most OP class in the game is ridiculous. Your damange output is so low that against heavy melees you will not even have time to debuff them before you need to run for the hills (unless they are so nice to let you sleep them). Try to play one without a bloodguard some time.

@ML if you refuse to poison yourself and are caught with neither poison nor sanc, you'll be dead vs most sleep classes (and even vs quite a few others). I'd have killed you with a necro far more easily under the same circumstances. Powerchord alone does nothing. So you can't flee for one to two ticks while you beat the shit out of the bard (this happens regularly even when I have some debuffs landed). So what. You died bc you allowed me to sleep you, fully spell you up and THEN powerchord you. 

Marcy

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

Uh.. so, besides Belderon I had Taliscen(watcher avian), Illian(avian Uncaballed), and ilsurik(undead pandy), so I’m pretty sure I’ve played enough of them. I mean.. is anyone gonna really tell me I don’t have the hours on multiple different bard combos? Lol

I get you defending your class and saying it’s not a class issue, I do. But I can honestly say bards are, in my personal opinion, in an OP state and I don’t think it’s a matter of balancing their weapons. I think it’s poor class design and we’re trying bandaid fixes to address an issue with how the class functions. Bard instruments were/are strong, brawl, the three bardics, fires weapons, and songs. There was a time when the songs didn’t matter, yes they matter more so now, but still as Taliscen I bet I didn’t even NEED to use them. I promise you I can roll another bard and I will have the exact same results, in ANY cabal.(if you recall I’ve done three diff cabals).

[Anonymous]

No, you do not get it at all. I'm not defending the class I play. I actively helped to tone them. And it was not just weapons.

Some people may be happy to play something that is obviously imbalanced (when they outdamage a decked serk face to face). Play your bard now, and I am sure you will notice a difference. Also, only 2 maintains now, so if you want paralyze and blind, the instrument will not be nodisarm, you have to choose now. The + 10 hr dr -sv applies are fortunately also gone. I created an instrument with -30 sv spell to prove my point and posted that on prayer. What did you do to help balance the class? If they are still so out of balance, then why do you not help balance them? Make actual proposals instead of bashing my char, which is much, much weaker than any of your bards ever were, why don't you.

Thanks. 

Marcy

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

[Trick]

I have proposed a LOT of changes and even helped the Staff test out a lot of changes. I’m not bashing you. I’m stating facts regarding class balance, it just so happens you are playing that class. It’s not an anti-Marcella witch hunt. I am a big fan of your character and have been across a few of my chars. Im sorry if it’s coming across that way, I don’t mean for it to. I’ve been the focus of more than one witch hunt and it sucks. It’s not a character or player attack, but a class frustration for those losing.

[Anonymous]

Re tassin:

- dissonance lag: 1 round to target, 2 rounds to the bard,  change is already in that breaks your instruments after 3 or 4 times (need to pay attention to that more)

- powerchord: IF it lands, and that is a big IF, 0-1 ticks rage, which means nothing if you outdamage the bard in that time, there are still various means to get out. 

- cabal skills? No cabal skills provide lag or hinder them from fleeing. If you mean blinding, then yeah I suppose, but that can happen too if a syndi lagger lags you.

- if the instruments blinds and paralyzes, disarm it (2 maintains)

I'm not against toning Bards further IF it is needed. I just do not see that it is right now. I've never died to a bard since the changes came in.

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

[Rygothran]

Put your character name on anon posts or I will delete them.

[Anonymous]

^^

Marcy.

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

[Anume]

Both Trick and Marcella have provided logs for us to help tone the class. I do hope we get a few more to see if further toning is warranted. The log above does not really warrant it. It would also help immensely to have a few more bards running around. Any volunteers? 😉

 

[Fool_Hardy]

Hmm.

Don't really think my logs would make bards appear to need toned. Lol.

['tarako]

3 hours ago, Twinblades713 said:

Saves literally didn’t matter at one point not very long ago, and try those blind. I mean I guess if you’re prepping to flee from the beginning, that’s a good way to win a fight. But I agree, once I stopped trying to win and started trying to merely survive, I did better. 

My primary goal is always survive. 

[FatMike]

I'll fight bards all day and post logs but I ain't playing one. That would defeat the purpose of trying to get them balanced because mine would be so bad. 

[tassinvegeta]

On 5/26/2019 at 12:05 PM, Anonymous said:

Re tassin:

- dissonance lag: 1 round to target, 2 rounds to the bard,  change is already in that breaks your instruments after 3 or 4 times (need to pay attention to that more)

- powerchord: IF it lands, and that is a big IF, 0-1 ticks rage, which means nothing if you outdamage the bard in that time, there are still various means to get out. 

- cabal skills? No cabal skills provide lag or hinder them from fleeing. If you mean blinding, then yeah I suppose, but that can happen too if a syndi lagger lags you.

- if the instruments blinds and paralyzes, disarm it (2 maintains)

I'm not against toning Bards further IF it is needed. I just do not see that it is right now. I've never died to a bard since the changes came in.

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

Just trying to state what other players might be frustrated with. In the case of @Manual Labour its how Bards seem to have an easier chance of making the stars align to keep someone in combat when things are going there way. Thing is, the better players will always try to ensure those stars align no matter how hard they were intended not to be. Example being in the log above. Though spamming not one but two commands sure didn't help in his case here.

Now IMO powerchord + some type of blindness when you're winning still seems quite strong. How many rounds in a tick? Possibly double that to two ticks now. Now add in that the Bard is not lagged during that time and can resort to another form of lag or keeping the opponent blinded in some way. I don't know, just seems unusually long and more effective than what any other class is capable of. Now if Bards didn't have dirt kick, embers in there instruments, and couldn't join certain cabals that blind, then this might seem more fair to me, either that or the duration should be reduced to number of rounds rather than time. But again this is just my opinion.

[f0xx]

@Manual Labour

Keeping someone in combat means nothing if they beat you up.

There are many counterplays - most players learned that way back against PSIs that had 10x the output of a silly bard.

Getting caught, locked in combat without sanc, without being able to flee will often result in your death. But many, many classes can do that to you. Against a bard you can at least input some commands.

I see nothing that makes it any different than getting caught by a vamp (even worse if he has a shadow), a zerker, a warrior, a necro, a BLM with certain anatomies, a ranger in certain cases, a thief, a ninja, a crusader, a dkn, a monk.... I can go on for quite a bit.

The idea here is to not get caught. If you get caught, that's your problem.

 

On the other point, being she can slip many times and get away, while you slip once and it's all over - BLMs are like that. They are the most versatile class out there, meaning they can counter everything. For that they pay with not being able to capitalize (much) when catching opponents with their guards down, although they can negate some of those downsides with their anatomies or with certain race/cabal combos. Bards on the other hand suffer from the same problems any hybrid does - giant laggers. Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses. If you don't like the pros/cons of a BLM and think those of a bard are much greater, then perhaps you should try a bard? It's how people roll usually. That's where the saying "If you think something is OP, roll it and roll the PB with it" comes from.

Only when you are playing the "OP combo" though, you face the difficulties it has to deal with. Often people find that the difficulties outweigh the benefits.

I personally find it strange that you've played some of the dumbest self-gimped combos ever to exist and done (relatively) well with them, but have problems with a BLM vs Bard battle.

[Manual Labour]

Keep lying to yourself.

"any combo that catches you without sanc and you're dead"

this is completely untrue.

many combos catch you without sanc and have a good chance to kill you, yes. but vs any combo you mentioned there is also a good chance of escape and they have to work for the kill with some sort of chase.

Only the string bard can do it easily, effortlessly and with such certainly. It is 100% bullshit, if you fight someone long enough they are bound to slip up, so that's how easy we are making classes now? Just stay near them and eventually when they make a mistake you will get a free effortless kill, in the meantime you will have 0 risk of death yourself and all the tools needed to hover nearby until you get your free kill chance.

[f0xx]

49 minutes ago, Manual Labour said:

Only the string bard can do it easily, effortlessly and with such certainly.

Not being able to flee doesn't mean death. There is a multitude of ways to escape that. Now if you get auto-blind first round, then tough luck, you shouldn't have gotten caught. But a lot of stars need to align in order for that to happen. First, the skill needs to land, second, it needs to land for 2 ticks, and third the autoblind needs to land. Those are almost impossible odds. Yes, those are going to happen rarely, but nothing is guaranteed. I remember some time ago I fought Nekky's zerk with one of my BLMs. I was beating his ass big time (as usual), but then he landed a haymaker and his dragon bashed the round after. Tough luck. 

 

51 minutes ago, Manual Labour said:

many combos catch you without sanc and have a good chance to kill you, yes. but vs any combo you mentioned there is also a good chance of escape

How do you escape from laglock from a heavy melee that caught you with sanc down? This goes warrior, zerker, crusader, vampire, monk, necro, DKN even ranger in some cases.

Why do you find it normal to get killed by laglock when caught without sanc against a melee, but unusual to get killed by a bard under similar circumstances?

[Trick]

I will say that any amount of saves really negates magnificent solo. I’ve had one and played against one, it’s managable.

[Ulmusdorn]

Cant you just eat a pill or smoke a herb now to resanc? 

Whats the issue? 

Can you use shifu's shawl, or quaff a recall, or use an orb of recall/stone of recall, or eat a pill of teleport or skylauncher or... (do I need to keep going?)

Whats the issue? 

 

Is this a cabal related issue? That you can't use those items? ---> Well thats a choice you made for your character. While you'll have a higher POWER PEAK you'll also open yourself up to other issues which wouldn't effect you if you weren't in WM. Thats life. Thats why you get cabal skills. 

 

Yawn.

 

EDIT: I also recall Ivesianna roflstomping everyone. Including multiple bards before the toning.... Maybe it was a luck thing?

[Twinblades713]

He's a Barbarian. He can do all those things. I think the issue is combined with autoblind so you can't do most of that stuff, but also several aspects of insane survivability like dirt and lag resist, combined with the ability to end a fight due to one mistake via a rage mechanic, combined with the ability to sleep anyone needing you to also manage poison or else get the entire kit loaded up on you, combined with them having huge sustain via infinite mana and hp songs, combined with shadowform so that you don't even necessarily know the person is on to prepare, combined with the one in the log also having potential qclass abilities, combined with having all Bard abilities belonging to their own saves category so you have to manage your EQ just for them, just makes Bards a bit frustrating to fight against. 

Not impossible, not unbeatable, but very frustrating.

The person with arguably the most Bard experience here (Trick) thinks they're extremely strong even after the toning. Do we really not care what he thinks?

Edit: People on more than one occasion have compared Bards to Psis saying they were similar... but psis are funneled into mental saves, HAVE been nerfed because of their strength, and are a Qclass. If Bards were a Qclass and limited to one or two slots, the issue would be a lot less notable. You'd expect them to be very strong and they'd be held to Q standards. Seems like a win.

[Fool_Hardy]

if bards were a qclass, the player behind this one would still be a bard. So, likely nothing changes in a good way.

If bards were a qclass, there would never have been a Kipple, or a Glenlow, or a Grebit.

In short, if bards were a qclass nothing would be different except there would be fewer players actually able to play one.

Having played many bards. I know that in this Log the drow was damned from the start. He did NOT have an adequate avenue to blind the bard. Blinding the bard is detremental to the bards survival, as is lagging them. While the blade master struggles here, Pas two rounded kipple and stole his heart. The Savant necro two rounded Grebit.

Does the bard have to be weak vs every class before people accept they are not OP? There is a word for that. GIMPED.

If bards are so strong, why are there so few around? Because it takes practice to do what this one is doing. But its easier to claim they are over powered than to admit they out played you. When you fail to prepare, you prepared to fail.

My 2 cents

[Rygothran]

We obviously care what Trick thinks about bards as he has been the voice for some of these changes. However, he hasn't played one since the recent changes (that I am aware of) so of course he would be challenged to play one now.

[Manual Labour]

13 hours ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Cant you just eat a pill or smoke a herb now to resanc? 

Whats the issue? 

Can you use shifu's shawl, or quaff a recall, or use an orb of recall/stone of recall, or eat a pill of teleport or skylauncher or... (do I need to keep going?)

Whats the issue? 

Is this a cabal related issue? That you can't use those items? ---> Well thats a choice you made for your character. While you'll have a higher POWER PEAK you'll also open yourself up to other issues which wouldn't effect you if you weren't in WM. Thats life. Thats why you get cabal skills. 

Yawn.

EDIT: I also recall Ivesianna roflstomping everyone. Including multiple bards before the toning.... Maybe it was a luck thing?

Actually since Danpher got magic items completely nerfed from WM that also applies to barbarians now. I cannot use the shifu shawl, and no Ulmu you cannot TP out of combat at all.

I was blind for the duration of the rage keeping me in combat, so NONE of your proposed solutions are viable. Yawn.

But thanks for trying to be helpful. Yawn.

Maybe next time you will offer some actual useful advice. Yawn.

Next time I'll be sure to use more cabal skills. Yawn.

Ivesianna is a totally different kettle of fish, who also caused several nerfs to blms. Yawn.

Maybe beating a bard is easier when you can automatically disarm their noremoves for free while you  are enlarged and hasted and have an enlarged hasted vanguard. Yawn.

Anyway clearly I am in the minority. You all think that 2 ticks being locked in combat is balanced. Yawn.

Fair enough. Yawn.

Yawn.

[Anonymous]

Yeah something is up with usable items and WM. I can use some things but can't use other things. It's a little confusing and I imagine it's even more so for the Barbarians. 

Practor

Anonymous poster hash: 9c058...6d0

[f0xx]

8 hours ago, Manual Labour said:

Ivesianna is a totally different kettle of fish, who also caused several nerfs to blms.=

What nerfs did Ivesianna cause to BLMs?

I don't remember reading any changes regarding such...

[Ulmusdorn]

2 hours ago, f0xx said:

What nerfs did Ivesianna cause to BLMs?

I don't remember reading any changes regarding such...

None that I'm aware of. I'm also shocked to find out she was only decent once getting Leader. Wonder how she got there...

 

@Manual Labour You got caught. Thats what getting caught is; an ass-wooping.