Log Off Mentality

[Trick]

After having a conversation with another player, we landed on the topic of logging off against strong opponents and rewards. The question is simple, do we reward the "log off and fight another day" mentality too heavily? I know I have experienced cases where people simply refuse to PK/RP with me and just instantly log off when I log on. I know I have logged OFF when someone else logs on because I know it will just be a poor experience. ( This one was fairly recent and was borderline harassment, so I won't use this as a strict example.)

I have seen characters rise up through cabal ranks without ever really fighting challenging opponents and just "get-by" fighting the lower-tiered PKers and send out mass journals. Do we reward this play-style more than we should? Is there a reason for this behavior and can it be fixed?

[Twinblades713]

Getting beat (even badly) in PK is certainly a factor and I know many characters who will log off due to difficult or seemingly insurmountable circumstances. Personally my experience will cause me to log out if this is the case but only if they are ungraceful winners. If I am beat in CW and my opponent is also vitriolic (this does not address being evil or purity good but plain obnoxious in either case) I log off. 

A case to prove this was Nebu. I got beat down regularly by Ivesianna Tasaire and Keshan. I rarely turned battles to my favor. I was often alone. But the quality of these opponents kept me logging in. Their willingness to RP instead of tritely calling me names or lambasting me for not recovering standard when i was unable made my experience a million times better.

i don’t think there’s a mechanic that can change this. Only the attitude of the players in power. If I am winning I do not feel like I try to beat people further and further down. I have experienced this in some cases when I am not winning and it does make it hard to log in when you anticipate negativity in addition to probably losing. 

[Atticus]

Well said twin and trick.

['tarako]

I never really logged off vs anyone. I'm more of a run at them full speed, and see what happens. Although I can understand being super conservative when you are closing in on condeath, but generally speaking I am not a player that logs out under adversity. Dranthos and Keshan ate me alive many times, but I never ran from the fight. I think alot of people have the mindset that you have to have a char live for years in real time and be never take a death. I measure my success in how true I stuck to my character concept.  I would be happier at 300 hour condeath on a character that never faltered vs 1k hours and never really tested the char limits. It's also pretty well documented I often have unpopular opinions.

[Archbishop Monk]

I have watched this as well, but it is generally a state of the rock-paper-scissor experiences due to class.  A case in point we had a while back with (I can't remember the name) but a dwarf paladin Sigil against just about any invoker.  Is there something they can do?  Yes, yes there is.  Is it a near completely lopsided battle?  Yes, yes it is.  Undead monk vs shaman, yes the shaman can do something, but in most cases that something is survive.

I know quite a few people pick underdog classes or cabals.  But, for those who like to PK, fighting a lop-sided battle either due to equipment, class or cabal skills does not seem like much fun for them.  It would be different if the variance in power level wasn't so peaked, but the truth is in some cases with some classes, the difference in power is very steep.   Hence, when facing opponents who are their class bane or has an extreme advantage, they log off as swiftly as possible.  I am all for not rewarding as greatly for instant log-offs and refusal to even fight.  But, I can tell you now when I played Soinua I flat out refused to fight Danpher at his cabal guard when he had the Savant Standard because it was pretty much certain death.  If he wanted to come to me out in the Ford, I was perfectly willing to fight.  But, if he was going to sit there with perfect advantage, then yes I would refuse and even log off after a time or go do something else.

[Lexi]

Recently, I've had to fight some people that would just trash my character. And then when I escape and just stay away, I kept getting told what a coward I am, what a terrible person I am, how I'm failing my guild, et cetera, et cetera. What's even the point of staying logged on in those circumstances?

There's also been situations when I've been logged on for 3-4 hours straight already and am just finishing up so I can log off when someone on the opposite end of the align spectrum shows up. Or maybe I'm just logging on for 15-20 minutes to check if there's any response on notes/applications and someone immediately attack my cabal guardian. There's going to be times when I log off not because I don't want to PK, but because other things are more important than FL.

I'd like to think the Imms are able to pick up on people that consistently take on the uphill battles vs the ones that only remain logged on for easy pickings. Some people have unimpressive pk records and still get promoted to higher cabal ranks - presumably because perseverence and longevity is more important than a stellar pk record that deletes after a handful unexpected deaths.

[Trick]

In the above case, I would make a case that its harassment. I've had people log on within 30 seconds of me logging on and come at me. Several times a day. Several times an HOUR even. This is harassment and the sole purpose of that berating, negative, harassing behavior is to ruin another person's fun. There's no other reason for it.

The case where the enemy has the perfect set up, in @Archbishop Monk's case, then I would advise the log off in that scenario as well. That's a bad set up and will only end in your death. The instances I am talking referring to, though, are the ones where its a "fair" login. Neither person has the "edge" and they are on equal footing, as it were.

Or, another situation I've run into that I find upsetting is the gang/loot and the looters refuse to fight me. This one is irritating just because you can never get that rare back because everytime you log in, they poof away. 

 

[Atticus]

Imo there's times you run into characters you could fight for hours and not dent them. Theres the razor thin cannon vs cannon battles where one thing like a missed dirt into haymaker turns the tides. The latter is my favorite from memory.

Then there is the oh character a has logged on, characters xyz legit vanish. In my experience from a decade from bottom of the barrel to some okay records of pk there's always the salt of seeing people shirk pk and characters that gets rewarded for doing so. Maybe thats just me, I know I can be intense.

But the log out mentality really kills it for me, and it legit empties the game. If you don't wanna pk, then idk if the cabals are for you. Being forced over the years to fight a bane class because everyone else who has an even fight rolling out is garbage.

[Trick]

If you're E/L then you should RARELY log out vs enemies. No matter who or what they are. You're supposed to be the top of your cabal. Act it.

[Ali_gmud]

20 minutes ago, Trick said:

If you're E/L then you should RARELY log out vs enemies. No matter who or what they are. You're supposed to be the top of your cabal. Act it.

 

2 hours ago, Lexi said:

Or maybe I'm just logging on for 15-20 minutes to check if there's any response on notes/applications and someone immediately attack my cabal guardian. There's going to be times when I log off not because I don't want to PK, but because other things are more important than FL.

Those high end E/L PK fights can sometimes require a bit more time than 15 - 20 minutes between engagements, I think the adrenaline timer alone is about 5 minutes. If you are at the top of your cabal, you should be able to log in, check clan, check notes/drop notes or check on an application progress and dip out if you want without the shame and with more understanding at the simple fact that you're short on time, whether it be because it's already late, or you gotta be somewhere else more important.

I don't think 'you should rarely log out vs enemies' for E and L peeps is fair, you should be able to, based on your own situation that the other player might not be aware of. But this can be communicated in game, which in my experience, players are often very understanding.

And that is coming from someone who did attempt to get the savant standard down death alley against Danpher multiple times, which is probably why I went 0-8 against him lol, but I had time, so I was ready to fight. Other times, I might have logged out because I without it.

[Celerity]

That said, the way that PK and cabals are designed, people are incentivized to log out. So they do.

For many characters, there isn't really a third option between 1. log out and 2. die

This is a common occurrence, so we can't blame individuals.

A good discussion would be to think of ways to incentivize/make possible people staying on, even when they can't win a PK they are forced to fight. That is the real issue.

[aaa]

On 7/2/2019 at 1:00 PM, Wade said:

Players in any game will always act whatever way rewards them the best. 

If you want to change a players behaviour, you have to change the reward system. 

If you get rewarded for being a long lived character then people will try to live as long as they can, whatever way they can. 

 

[Trick]

This is all assuming there isn’t a RL reason for it. Every once in a while? Fine. Totally acceptable. Every single time? No way. 

['tarako]

Honestly the fights I can't win are the ones I enjoy the most. It's nothing for a zerk to kill a halfling thief. Now I threw myself into fights with Keshan, and Dranthos, as seviks knowing I had a 99% chance to lose. I wanted to hit that 1% so bad because that's something to be proud of.

[Archbishop Monk]

I, for one, despise waiting around for an opponent to make a mistake so I can win.  It does not feel like a win at all, but an opponent's own mistake that got them a loss.  It is different if there is something I can do to make that happen.  A dispel at the right time to turn the fight or a dirt kick right after they are disarmed.  It is another matter when you are waiting around for something to happen that you have no control over (I love and hate monks for this reason).

[Imoutgoodbye]

I don't know what any of you are talking about.  You get to kick my arse on a daily basis.

[Aidon]

I don't know. I'm on the fence on this. My experience is also dated because I haven't played alot super recently. 

Ask me a few years ago, I would've agreed with people who say no one should log out, and I lived it honestly, but I don't anymore. I mean, you could even argue ighting a fight you know you can't win should be against the rules. Its knowing your character will return from death, which is a no no. No reasonable person would fight a fight they know will end in their death. When I play zealot archetypes I just cast it as blind faith. But a reasonable type character? Why would it be in RP for him to march to his death? But I've done it alot...and to be honest its the reason I quit playing so much. I grew tired and bitter of dying over and over and never getting promoted, to the point where it drove me to quit playing. On Aelleor, I had been at Trusted for over 500 hours when Lamah got Elder in Watcher in like 2 weeks with minimal RP but god-like PK and proceeded to steam roll the shit out of me, killed me prolly 10+ times and I never logged out. I only didn't condie because of changes made to Minotaur charge.  

On Aidon, I died something like 20-30 times (literally) to Agmeel. Over and over and over and over I died. I never once logged off, never once shied away. I went full steam every time. There was nothing I could do though, even with the best eq I could wear, trying every strategy, I wasn't going to beat him. I maxed stats as much as I could, I got new armor just for him, but I kept getting steam rolled. It got really, really tiring. I died probably 10+ times just trying to break friends out of a jail with Agmeel sitting waiting at the jail. I new I was going to die, but I did it anyway, because my character is not a coward, and he believed each time he could win because that was his RP -- blind faith. It made me hate the game, and ultimately drove me to leave for a year.

The problem is that I never got there. I never got to the point where I was going to beat Agmeel. I also played this mud for 10 straight years and never got to Elder in a cabal, despite having some very long lived characters (1000+ hours on both Patreus & Aelleor at Trusted). The characters who get the Elder spots to me seem to be the people with the best pk record with RP as table stakes. When I played characters who were less driven by honor or virtue, I felt fine avoiding fighting except on my own terms and I did a lot better, and I actually enjoyed the mud. I had alot more fun on neutrals because I didn't feel a righteous need to defeat the opponent for RP reasons. 

I've grown bitter with my old age, and now If I am cabal inductee with shit armor I'm not going up against the elder/leader of the enemy over and over who is decked to hell. It just sucks all the joy out of this game to die literally 20 times to the same character, or to die with them over half health multiple times after having exhausted every major strategy. 

I also currently have a character who when he was uncaballed had a cabal elder in an unrelated cabal to his RP, he had never met come after him over and over when he was training, questing, and equipping, with no RP attempts. No obvious reason built in for his character (ie, not undead v paladin, etc, etc, etc). He just kept coming after me while I tried to suit, do basic quests, etc. I mean I want to figure out these new areas and do quests and such and as an uncaballed, unsuited guy I can't fight a decked cabal elder, so what's the point of staying logged in.  

At its core, its hard to enjoy this game if the guy who wants to fight you has a MASSIVE advantage over you. I had a better chance of outrunning the actual police in a car chase than ever beating Agmeel with my invoker, and I was forced to fight him and forced to lose over and over until the mud become unenjoyable. I've long said I thought cabals should be RP only and there should be no cabal skills or spells, but when there's a god combo in full adeptus and you just hit pinn and are wearing items from elemental canyon, the fight ain't gonna go your way. You can die, and some items might crumble, or he takes your 1-2 decent items, and you never get there. Or you can log out and swap into another character who doesn't have to fight him. The choice is obvious.

[Lexi]

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying @Aidon, but I think the original post is less about people with severe disadvantages not sticking around and more with caballed/fully geared/trusted+ people logging off because someone they might not beat shows up (a slight disadvantage or even equal terms, as opposed to dying 10+ times to a Danpher). At least that's how I interpreted @Trick (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

As for your other points: sticking to your guns in the face of adversity should be rewarded. I know I got a lot higher cabal ranks on my last character than my PK deserved, but I would fight the WM trifecta over and over and over again. As for being promoted to Elder/Leader: this is about embodying your cabal's ideals in word and in action. Having god-tier PK skills will be a great advantage, but I had terrible PK and somehow managed to get leader with Riona. And Twinblades made leader with Nebu (and he admittedly didn't kill dozens and dozens of vendetta enemies).

Consistency seems like the best way to get to those higher ranks. Logging the hours, promoting your cabal's ideals (through PK, but especially through RP), sending notes/journals that show you have leadership qualities, etc. I'm not 100% sure what the imms are looking for in their elders (and I think it varies from imm to imm), but I'm definitely under the impression you don't need to have an infinite amount of pkills to get a spot.

Sorry for going off-topic, but I just wanted to respond to that part of Aidon's post.

['tarako]

I was also operating under the assumption this post was in regards to characters that are well established, well equipped, and higher up in their respective cabals. I understand someone who just hit 50 and is wearing level 30 eq not wanting to fight the cabal elder death machine breathing down their neck.  That is completely understandable, but in my experience the people who are fresh aren't the ones perpetuating the log off playstyle. So most of my comments are gonna be geared towards established characters who continually log off in the face of a challenge.

The logoff mentality was a big factor in me deleting my dwarf cleric. There where people that multi killed me pre pinn. Literally took 2 deaths to 2 different people (died to each of them twice) then when I hit 50 they would run if I started an engagement. Not that they would start losing and vanish, they would literally leave after 1 round of combat, and log off. It wasn't about rock paper scissors gameplay disadvantages,  they only wanted to be in a pk they couldn't lose. They where treating the game like it's single player, and just grinding kills against the proverbial plasm beasts of the pinn range. Once those plasma beasts where no longer a 3 round kill, they had 0 interest in fighting them.

[tassinvegeta]

Just like in any game, you may lose. Does it suck? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No. This game is rare and exceptional in that things are already and can be implemented to alleviate more of this.

On the matter of this thread. People do it but imms aren't discouraging this behavior. That's for them to decide not us. 

[Anume]

If we do notice that someone logs off from cabal duties regularly, we will not promote them or in some cases, even demote them. Of course you may need to log off bc of rl stuff, but we do notice if you always log off in these cases.

Cabal duties include bounties for syndicate btw.

[Fool_Hardy]

Real life reasons cause a lot of logging out.

Not just the things that come up. As stated earlier we do not always have an hour to play. So logging out before the inevitable door knock, that will lead to an hour long battle will happen.

While the assumption is always he is avoiding the battle, in truth he is avoiding the long battle.

On many occasions I have simply told my enemies that time does not permit me to engage them at this moment. Let us meet when my full time and attention can be granted to a worthy opponent.

My advice, play with a modicum of understanding toward other players and enjoy the game while not trying to ruin another's experience.

 

[f0xx]

On 7/12/2019 at 7:31 PM, Trick said:

The question is simple, do we reward the "log off and fight another day" mentality too heavily?

I've never seen anyone getting rewards for logging of.

The question here shouldn't be how to punish people for logging of though, since people log off for a wide range of reasons, and the very nature of the rock-paper-scissor balance of FL calls for avoiding some type of combos ot begin with.

The question(s) should be: "How to better incentivize staying against tougher opponents and classes that counter yours."

People will do everything as long as they have a good enough incentive. RP points showed that clearly.

Create a system that rewards HEAVILY the underdog. This can be done though a multitude of ways, but something real fun and interesting would be customizable cabal gear that costs a lot and is purchasable with a second type of CP (premium CP?) Such a system would also incentivize people to choose underdog cabals for their next projects.

That being said, IMMs need to think about ways of rewarding behaviour that promotes growth:

1) Longevity

2) RP

3) Courage

4) Class

[English lad]

On 7/12/2019 at 9:55 PM, Celerity said:

That said, the way that PK and cabals are designed, people are incentivized to log out. So they do.

For many characters, there isn't really a third option between 1. log out and 2. die

This is a common occurrence, so we can't blame individuals.

A good discussion would be to think of ways to incentivize/make possible people staying on, even when they can't win a PK they are forced to fight. That is the real issue.

In other words... don't hate the player, hate the game?  I appreciate it would be nice if people always played the way we want them to, but the reality of most competitive games is that people will do what benefits them the most.

If the system rewards a specific playstyle, people will gravitate towards it.  Positive re-reinforcement is key.  If we want people to stick around to fight battles they know they aren't going to win, there needs to be something for them in it.

[Trick]

What if we made losing rewarding? Similar to what f0xx suggested, what if LOSING a fight to a cabal enemy gave you a significant amount of CPs or some similar reward? I know, I know, I know. This is the “everyone gets a trophy” mentality, but if you know you’re going to gain something from a PK defeat instead of just losing your rares, it might incentivize people to stick around. 

Game checks for underdog scenarios. Your cabal enemy has 3 on and you’re the only one? You might get a cabal point immunity if your standard is taken so you don’t stop gaining CPs when it’s gone because you stuck around. Or when you retrieve vs those odds, you get double the CP for returning it, etc. 

These little things might make you stick around. If someone gets more CPs and can afford life insurance a few times, they might be willing to take on the potential altar room gangbang that’s gonna happen.

As a vet and a solid PKer I’ve always advocated for the “harden up princess” ideology, but that way of thinking is just forcing people to leave and find a more rewarding game experience. I think if we made ALL aspects appealing, we might see lesser skilled PKers return.

We need those lower tiers. Lower tiers make the “average” PKers feel successful and thus makes them play more and so on.

Thoughts?