Ninja Rework

My rework is centered around removing study and assassinate. In exchange, ninja receive a generic melee boost with a couple of utility skills thrown in. Then we add new ninjutsu paths. Keep in mind that while ninja here get a relatively powerful skillset, they are limited by racial stats, size, hp, etc.

The Shinobi (spy) path is the stealth and survival path. They will play much like maledictive thieves, being pure rogues. They are particularly hard to surprise and finish off.

The Boryaku (strategy) path is the utility path. They fight well outdoors and can track you. They use the environment and active skills to gain an advantage.

The Keiri (executioner) path is the combat path. Closest thing to a straight fighter. They are adept at killing other rogues with their weapon selection and their counters give them a blademaster feeling.

All ninja:

Disguise

+10% exotic max prof

+3% sword max prof

+3% dagger max prof

First parry (monk)*

Second parry (monk)*

Martial arts b*

Martial arts a*

Kickboxing b*

Kickboxing a*

Weaponlock immunity

Offhand disarm

Sense movement

lose assassinate

lose death kiss

lose falcon eye

lose study

lose lotus scourge

lose ikuzachi

*unarmed fighting skills are mostly for flavor: they aren't very effective without beads, stances, or anatomies---the unarmed parries might be useful sometimes though---for example when using a net (new ability).

Shadowstrike/doublesheath are worked into the paths.

Shinobi (Spy path)

Immune to ranger/ninja track, cabal 'spy' and other location/tracking/gate in abilities.

Autosneak

On deathblow, final attack hits decoy (if timer is not running) and ninja auto-flees (regardless if decoy fired or not, ninja avoids attack). 672 hour cooldown.

Can hide at night (6 pm to 6 am) anywhere with a 2 tick cooldown, but any movement while hidden takes you out of shadows: similar to old 'fade' skill, but detectable with detect hidden.

Can open, close, pick, and lock doors while hidden. If done while hidden, local echo of door movements is hidden on both sides of the door.

Edge darts instead of shurikens. Darts do 25% less damage than shurikens, but can have different maledictive/mental effects (think of archery ranger projective effects except through manual throw)

Heresy - Like gag, except only works on communers. Can only use on sleeping targets.

Stab - Like a single backstab, except can wound and can cause bloodloss. Penalty to hit if target is awake; greater penalty to hit if target is awake AND ninja is not hidden. Target current health is not considered.

Agent - Puts an invis/camo/hidden watcher mob that reports yells and in room actions to the ninja. Only one at a time.

Doublesheath

Boryaku (Tactical path)

Tumbling - (prof/2) chance for 'balance' if hit by a lag attack - means you take damage, but no lag.

Meteorology - Predicts upcoming weather changes. Gains an extra attack and +(level/10)% dodge in poor weather outdoors.

Geography - Hide in shallow/deep water, dodge fired weapons/thrown items in forest, autokick in plains, grapple/trip effectiveness increased in swamp, two tick dirt kick in desert, +2 mal level dust/smoke in air, else other outdoors: +2 avg damage per strike.

Track (Ranger)

Fireworks - Area flashfire/thunderclap (save for each)---does minor damage (therefore wakes enemy). Has 2 tick cooldown.

Net - Out of combat: creates a net (3 tick cooldown on create, lasts 24 ticks). In combat: throws the net for an attempted short-term entangle effect. Must be holding the net in a hand to throw it.

Traps - Places a shuriken, net, caltrap, or firework trap at an exit or object. Shuriken/net requires the item and expends it. Fireworks must not be on cooldown and sets the skill on cooldown. Caltrap trap hits flying enemies normally. Shurikens deal damage and can poison. Firework trap spells have +2 level compared to ninja.

Backcutter (all weapons)

Keiri (Executioner path)

Polearm

Pugil works with polearms and spears

Two handed

Dual parry

Counter

Double counter

Iaijutsu - counters strangle/blackjack and ninja opening 'murder' cannot be countered. Iaijutsu triggering against iaijutsu means defender counters then attacker counters then defender double counters.

Blind fighting

Chii adds +5 hit/dam

+1 size when grappling

Mounted combat

+2% staff prof

Shadowstrike

clean.

I like it.

While it eliminates Assassinate, it opens other doors for ninjas.

Seconded. Good job Celerity.

My rework is centered around removing study and assassinate. In exchange, ninja receive a generic melee boost with a couple of utility skills thrown in. Then we add new ninjutsu paths. Keep in mind that while ninja here get a relatively powerful skillset, they are limited by racial stats, size, hp, etc.

 

The Shinobi (spy) path is the stealth and survival path. They will play much like maledictive thieves, being pure rogues. They are particularly hard to surprise and finish off.

 

The Boryaku (strategy) path is the utility path. They fight well outdoors and can track you. They use the environment and active skills to gain an advantage.

 

The Keiri (executioner) path is the combat path. Closest thing to a straight fighter. They are adept at killing other rogues with their weapon selection and their counters give them a blademaster feeling.

 

All ninja:

Disguise

+10% exotic max prof

+3% sword max prof

+3% dagger max prof

First parry (monk)*

Second parry (monk)*

Martial arts b*

Martial arts a*

Kickboxing b*

Kickboxing a*

Weaponlock immunity

Offhand disarm

Sense movement

lose assassinate

lose death kiss

lose falcon eye

lose study

lose lotus scourge

lose ikuzachi

 

*unarmed fighting skills are mostly for flavor: they aren't very effective without beads, stances, or anatomies---the unarmed parries might be useful sometimes though---for example when using a net (new ability).

 

Shadowstrike/doublesheath are worked into the paths.

 

Shinobi (Spy path)

Immune to ranger/ninja track, cabal 'spy' and other location/tracking/gate in abilities.

Autosneak

On deathblow, final attack hits decoy (if timer is not running) and ninja auto-flees (regardless if decoy fired or not, ninja avoids attack). 672 hour cooldown.

Can hide at night (6 pm to 6 am) anywhere with a 2 tick cooldown, but any movement while hidden takes you out of shadows: similar to old 'fade' skill, but detectable with detect hidden.

Can open, close, pick, and lock doors while hidden. If done while hidden, local echo of door movements is hidden on both sides of the door.

Edge darts instead of shurikens. Darts do 25% less damage than shurikens, but can have different maledictive/mental effects (think of archery ranger projective effects except through manual throw)

Heresy - Like gag, except only works on communers. Can only use on sleeping targets.

Stab - Like a single backstab, except can wound and can cause bloodloss. Penalty to hit if target is awake; greater penalty to hit if target is awake AND ninja is not hidden. Target current health is not considered.

Agent - Puts an invis/camo/hidden watcher mob that reports yells and in room actions to the ninja. Only one at a time.

Doublesheath

 

Boryaku (Tactical path)

Tumbling - (prof/2) chance for 'balance' if hit by a lag attack - means you take damage, but no lag.

Meteorology - Predicts upcoming weather changes. Gains an extra attack and +(level/10)% dodge in poor weather outdoors.

Geography - Hide in shallow/deep water, dodge fired weapons/thrown items in forest, autokick in plains, grapple/trip effectiveness increased in swamp, two tick dirt kick in desert, +2 mal level dust/smoke in air, else other outdoors: +2 avg damage per strike.

Track (Ranger)

Fireworks - Area flashfire/thunderclap (save for each)---does minor damage (therefore wakes enemy). Has 2 tick cooldown.

Net - Out of combat: creates a net (3 tick cooldown on create, lasts 24 ticks). In combat: throws the net for an attempted short-term entangle effect. Must be holding the net in a hand to throw it.

Traps - Places a shuriken, net, caltrap, or firework trap at an exit or object. Shuriken/net requires the item and expends it. Fireworks must not be on cooldown and sets the skill on cooldown. Caltrap trap hits flying enemies normally. Shurikens deal damage and can poison. Firework trap spells have +2 level compared to ninja.

Backcutter (all weapons)

 

Keiri (Executioner path)

Polearm

Pugil works with polearms and spears

Two handed

Dual parry

Counter

Double counter

Iaijutsu - counters strangle/blackjack and ninja opening 'murder' cannot be countered. Iaijutsu triggering against iaijutsu means defender counters then attacker counters then defender double counters.

Blind fighting

Chii adds +5 hit/dam

+1 size when grappling

Mounted combat

+2% staff prof

Shadowstrike

Celerity, as most of your ideas I do like, I would just like to add one thing. Since we are speaking of re-vamping here and trying to make each class a bit different from the rest... why dont we have ninjas or assassins have a new type of defense. Something like gymnastics, where you do flips, spins and etc. to dodge, block and make your enemy miss. It would also be cool if there was a defense that was like vanish, where you use smoke to evade and strike your opponent, similiar to riposte but could possibly have small chances for affects, such as bleed effect or a tiny malediction. I also see how you placed in the monks attacks, would they also have weapons? You say that it will not be as effective due to no beads, but there are a form of beads in the game people can obtain.

Maybe I am missing something because I just woke up. Would you be willing to create an actual skill list from lvl 1 to 50? Giving a secondary list of what the skills would do?

I think I've listed what every suggested new skill would do, and these skills are in addition to the current ninja skillset...which means they have weapons, etc. Add them together to get the full list.

Gymnastics is in through 'tumbling'. Special maledictive defense is also in with the death avoidance shinobi skill. I know you meant these skills as regular defenses, but I don't believe it would be fitting for all ninja, as rogues, to have extra (or two!) normal melee defense. Gymnastics as a normal defense is just 'dodge'. The two more direct paths get a kind of boosted melee defense anyways. Fun ideas, just not really suited for my idea without rebalancing things again.

Unempowered monk attacks without stances aren't going to be very powerful. I'm not too worried about them.

I don't like many stuff. Like others.

I don't see a problem with the monk attacks. Non monk/holy hands/werebeast hand to hand damage is very gimped. Beads mostly give hit/dam and access to strangle.

I don't like giving autosneak, it diminishes the drow/elf option. Give them ranger quiet movement. Forest autosneak.

I don't like all those extra weapon proficiencies. It diminishes warriors. Perhaps giving them 2 weapon expertises and having them chose the weapon would be better.

The deathblow dummy looks a bit tad powerful on a doublesheath race and our propensity to healing consumables.

But this is something I think can only be evaluated on the field.

Weaponlock immunity. This completely craps on one of the warrior lores. I don't like it.

Offhand disarm. Another warrior specific. Why not just give them shield disarm?

Heresy - This makes no RP sense in my eyes. Also, what is up with the proliferation of skills that completely negate PK. Why don't people suggest skills that make people have no meele attacks.

Stab. - Nice idea, but it should respect the HP limits. Or do a lot less damage than a backstab 400 dam cap pre vuln.

I can see a ninja eroding a drow cleric to 50% of his HP, strangle him, heresy him, blind him, wait for sanctuary to drop, and then stab him to death or close, and have autothrow finish him.

Tumbling - Just give them Balance, or enlarge self.

Pugil works with polearms and spears  ==> BRAWL!!! Which also works with non instruments. Not that a bard would ever want to.

Iaijutsu - You only say it counters strangle/blackjack and ninjas attacks can't be countered. Why do you have two ninjas double countering?

Your Keiri is totally OP.

The only thing they don't have on warriors is fourth attack, riposte and some weapons. In return they get a lot of huge bonus.

You have a warrior that is hard to lag, can STR/DEX drop like mad wielding the most defensive/ofensive weapon (polearm) with pupil with mounted combat bonus.

And it can still strangle.

Not to speak of the incredible OP anti-counter thing. Which would be also extra OP if it can counter.

I would totally roll and avian Keiri ninja, or even better, and Undead one and pawn most meeles.

I like the idea on general, but not the particular application. Although some specific skills are pretty interesting. Like the fade and darts fletchery thing.

added suggestion after some consideration.

Ki Stance

Syntax: Ki

Aligning their chakra the ninja enables himself to become one with his surroundings, he anticipates incoming attacks. This skill allows a ninja to catch projectiles that would otherwise harm the ninja when not in combat. Such as arrows shot from a distance, or projectiles thrown to initiate battle. It would also provide a small chance to deflect arrows while in combat.

Its a skill that well trained ninjas should have. I know they have scrolls of missile immunity, but with the suggested change, a ninja may seek to not use scrolls, if for instance they sought the battle clan. Just a thought.

Losing Assassinate is a HUGE power shift for this class. These changes may seem over powered at the onset, but you must keep in mind they will have lost their highest level earned skill.

Mya, I went through a similar process with Keiri vs Warrior thoughts.

Basically I sat down and thought: Would Keiri be more powerful than a warrior in melee?

In the end, I said: No way! Melees will stomp Keiri ninja in most straight fights.

A Keiri doesn't have the warrior main buffs...they have much worse weapon selection, can't choose their expertise (sword is a shitty expertise, btw), and they don't have the extra defenses or extra attacks that a warrior has. Their spear and polearm buff doesn't get a prof bonus, and strength really limits their choices. No real warrior lore. Grapple is nothing like bash either.

Keiri will be beat on account of their weapon selection and crappy hp. Unblockable damage alone will do them in half the time. I think an avian or even undead keiri would have plenty of problems against plenty of classes. On the other hand, they won't crumble quite as bad as current ninja...

So Keiri have worse defense and much less resilience (Especially hp...we are talking 300-400 max less than a warrior). They CAN have good offense. Their lag protection is hit or miss as well.

Basically, do you think a human, feral, or drow keiri ninja can go toe-to-toe with any powerful warrior or other melee (ranger, blm) and have much of a chance to beat them straight out. No chance at all. A heavy melee will demolish all three paths, but especially keiri, because they can't do much besides melee. Heavy melee continues to be the rogue bane, as they should be.

If anything, I worry that these ninja paths will be too weak. They need to have enough power to be able to fight all classes with some degree of success, while also considering what they will be the bane for and against.

As for weaponlock, ninja will be absolutely raped by whips anyways. Weaponlock is overkill, and ninja training explicitly talks about escaping weapon and unarmed holds. If you choose whip lore warrior (one of the, if not the, strongest lore), I have no problem with your lore not working on all people...especially those that are weak to your weapon selection anyways.

Stab. - Nice idea, but it should respect the HP limits. Or do a lot less damage than a backstab 400 dam cap pre vuln.

I can see a ninja eroding a drow cleric to 50% of his HP, strangle him, heresy him, blind him, wait for sanctuary to drop, and then stab him to death or close, and have autothrow finish him.

Yes, and if the ninja could pull that off, it sounds like they executed a perfect rogue-style kill. Of course, to make that work, the drow cleric would need to fall to 50%, not be poisoned, fail a strangle save, fail a blind save, and also have sanc running out. I didn't mention it in the skill, but of course it would have a per-target cooldown.

I don't like all those extra weapon proficiencies. It diminishes warriors. Perhaps giving them 2 weapon expertises and having them chose the weapon would be better.

Not being able to choose to the expertise is the main point. They aren't as flexible as warriors. Daggers and swords are some of the worst weapons in the game.

Offhand disarm. Another warrior specific. Why not just give them shield disarm?

Mainly because I see ninja as not being experienced with shields. Weapon-focused abilities make more sense to me.

I don't like giving autosneak, it diminishes the drow/elf option. Give them ranger quiet movement. Forest autosneak.

Activated sneak indoors and autosneak in forests? That doesn't make much sense to me, personally. I can see it as a night-based only autosneak, so that drow/elves can have it all the time; other races only at night.

Iaijutsu - You only say it counters strangle/blackjack and ninjas attacks can't be countered. Why do you have two ninjas double countering?

Iaijutsu means basically first strike (draw and slash in one motion). So I gave the scenario of first strike vs first strike. An iaijutsu ninja tries to strangle an iaijutsu ninja. Defender counters, attacker counters, then defender double counters.

Ninja actions can be countered normally--just not their 'murder'. They can get blm-countered on dirt kick, for instance, or monk mantis reversal against strangle.

While there is likely much to say regarding this well thought out thread, I quite honestly haven't given it the proper amount of thought to personally address almost any of the specifics.

On a more broad scale I believe assassinate should be removed however I think you too easily dismiss the study = combat advantage route. Wait, that was another thread where that was said. I'll provide a link to that here later then.

We need the ability for a ninja to essentially "assassinate" certain characters, while keeping that limited to a single character at a time and requiring some preparation. The study = advantage is a more melee (and thus scales with equipment, up and down) oriented form of assassinate that is not a "hands down" victory and allows the victim a sense of both fear and a chance to fight for survival.

Other than that, I despise the Japanese language being used so liberally within FL. I have said it before and I'll say it again... It doesn't fit FL's lore or theme. We have no Japanese language in the game. Unless we google them, the words have literally no meaning to much of the playerbase. Can we just rename them to Asssassins and drop the pseudo Japanese culture references please?

We need the ability for a ninja to essentially "assassinate" certain characters

Why? Because certain characters are too strong they require assassinate in order to die? Sounds like we should be looking what makes those super-powerful characters too strong instead of a one-shot kill weapon that circumvents their strength.

Let's be fair too---anyone who is too strong to require assassinate to be killed is also good enough to generally not get assassinated. It doesn't really function like the 'balancer' many people claim it to be.

If you use study to boost ninja melee to the point where they are a viable threat to 'ultra' characters...ninja will be horribly overpowered against all other characters. That is why you need to look at the 'ultra' characters for the balancing. You are essentially proposing that the new study/assassinate system must make ninja 'ultra-strong'. So, in the end, you'll have two problems and none solved.

Other than that, I despise the Japanese language being used so liberally within FL. I have said it before and I'll say it again... It doesn't fit FL's lore or theme. We have no Japanese language in the game. Unless we google them, the words have literally no meaning to much of the playerbase. Can we just rename them to Asssassins and drop the pseudo Japanese culture references please?

I think there are very strong arguments on both sides of this issue. This is more of a flavor thing and is mainly distracting/derailing for mechanics discussions in my opinion.

Ninja do fit in with FL's theme however, since FL includes ninja in its lore and history. Not sure where you are going with that part of the argument. You'd have to drop monks, blademasters, crusaders and a whole lot of other things too if you start down this road.

Ki Stance

Syntax: Ki

Aligning their chakra the ninja enables himself to become one with his surroundings, he anticipates incoming attacks. This skill allows a ninja to catch projectiles that would otherwise harm the ninja when not in combat. Such as arrows shot from a distance, or projectiles thrown to initiate battle. It would also provide a small chance to deflect arrows while in combat.

Sure, I can see this as flavor text for the ability that protects Boryaku ninja from fired weapons in forests. I'm not sure I'd give it to all ninja though. I'd personally change the name since chii = ki...it'd just be awkward. Like having colour spray and color spray, but being completely different spells.

I giggled when I read "Ki" too. Someone's been reading other muds' help files.

Ki is from the AD&D book that contained the eastern cultures. Bushi, Kensai, and Ninja, all had Ki powers. Chii is the proper spelling for Ki take that up with Gary Gygax. But Celerity's Chii power was different. I used the alternate spelling to differentiate between the two. Glad I made you smile Foxx.

I don't like many stuff. Like others.

for teh lulz

Let's see you post in spanish (is that your first language, Mya?) and see if you get it any better then.

Chii is an old romanization of the word Qi from Chinese.

Japanese borrowed the Chinese character for Qi for use into their own language and pronounce it as Ki.

So, Qi (Chii) is Chinese and Ki is a Japanese reading of that word.

Bushi (Warrior), Kensai (Blademaster), and Ki are all Japanese words, so whoever made that book drew from (exclusively?) Japanese culture.

Ideally, we'd use Qi for monks and Ki for ninja.

Anyways, I think Mya is Portuguese.

I always envisioned Mya as Eastern European male sitting in a dorm with euro-techno blasting in the background.

Mya is Portugese, I'm just playin' Anume; and I commend all non English speakers (typers) who post on the boards and play the game.  My hat's off to you all, I took Spanish and French in school but I can't post anything on this board in those languages that would make sense

Neither can we at times...

Neither can we at times...

Where are you from?

EDIT: I still want to know where (not sure if it was Morlch or Volg) is from. Eating weird foodstuffs and posting it as if it were normal in most western cultures.