Mordred Feral Ninja Watcher vs Belvicet Human Necro Tribunal

[mya]

A Feral Hasted won with murder. Thats one of the best strategies for ferals. Its their strength.

Has he tried that vs a mounted Paladin with a firelance and missile shield and this would be very different.

[Trick]

Before this gets too far out of hand...

I want to be clear that I am NOT against Mordred, the player, or anyone that plays the ninja class. I played bards for a long time when they were TOTALLY broken, so I'm not condemning him or insulting him or his character. Play what you want and I hope you have fun. That is what this is about. Fun.

I am saying that I think ninjas could stand to lose a little offense and be forced to set up their fights a bit more and that's what the paths are supposed to do. Give ninjas a specialized tool to fill that gap in offense and win the fight.

[Anonymous]

Sigh lol I'll leave the subject alone on that one.

Ok lets keep this simple. So in this one scenario, do you believe that a class with 3rd attack, fired weapons, a rokujan/fang, and haste should not be able to do that?

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

[Trick]

6 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

Sigh lol I'll leave the subject alone on that one.

Ok lets keep this simple. So in this one scenario, do you believe that a class with 3rd attack, fired weapons, a rokujan/fang, and haste should not be able to do that?

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

If that is how the class is SUPPOSED to work, then its totally fine and working as intended, but I do not think that is how ninjas are conceptually supposed to run.

Like I said before, ninjas are designed to set up a victory in a rogue-like manner through debuffs and surprise. Your path, in particular, is designed to set up a fight better than any other by strangling through poison to land your debuffs and begin a fight with the upperhand. That's what a ROGUE is. What you did was what a WARRIOR would do. Each ninja has a path that is supposed to fill in an offensive gap, but that gap isn't there and THAT is what is wrong with the class.

Is what I'm saying making sense?

[Archbishop Monk]

3 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

Sigh lol I'll leave the subject alone on that one.

Ok lets keep this simple. So in this one scenario, do you believe that a class with 3rd attack, fired weapons, a rokujan/fang, and haste should not be able to do that?

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

I would think any class with that setup should be able to do that.  However, there are also counters to that in high ac, playing the attrition game better or some cabal skills.

Here are two things you did not mention here in this scenario that have to be done vs a general ninja.

1. have a way to poison yourself which cuts YOUR regen.  No other straight melee classes do you have to worry about that, and you noticed he tried poisoning himself.

2. Have to find a way to keep them in combat.  No other melee class can hide or get away as quickly with vanish.  Thieves at least have to flee first and hide first.  Rangers as well.

 

The point is, the actual combat of this fight only represents one part of the battle.  The preparation that has to go into fighting any ninja currently is a bit high.  Let's look at a ranger in comparison.  A feral ranger would hit harder due to pets.  Even with the same weapons, the added damage would hurt.  However, the necro wouldn't have to had poisoned himself which means he gets full regen to play the attrition game.  Even against an archer, there is only a 'chance' to put someone to sleep.

I think that is what @Trick is pointing out. 

 

 

['tarako]

RTrick is just trying to say that as it stands ninjas don't need any kind of setup to win through spamming murder. No nerve, no caltraps, no blindness dust. Just spam murder is all it takes vs a fair amount of the available classes. Your kills should require some setup, where in most ninja logs they dont. You don't need to land nerve, ucaltraps, poison or blindness a large amount of the time. You are arguing that a warrior can do the same thing, but that is entirely tricks point. That is what a warrior does, dirt and melee output. Having rogues that do it better ,with less eq, is what a ninja does. You need less saves, and less hit dam, with jutsu as well. There isn't really a downside to playing a ninja.

[Atticus]

14 minutes ago, Archbishop Monk said:

I would think any class with that setup should be able to do that.  However, there are also counters to that in high ac, playing the attrition game better or some cabal skills.

Here are two things you did not mention here in this scenario that have to be done vs a general ninja.

1. have a way to poison yourself which cuts YOUR regen.  No other straight melee classes do you have to worry about that, and you noticed he tried poisoning himself.

2. Have to find a way to keep them in combat.  No other melee class can hide or get away as quickly with vanish.  Thieves at least have to flee first and hide first.  Rangers as well.

 

The point is, the actual combat of this fight only represents one part of the battle.  The preparation that has to go into fighting any ninja currently is a bit high.  Let's look at a ranger in comparison.  A feral ranger would hit harder due to pets.  Even with the same weapons, the added damage would hurt.  However, the necro wouldn't have to had poisoned himself which means he gets full regen to play the attrition game.  Even against an archer, there is only a 'chance' to put someone to sleep.

I think that is what @Trick is pointing out. 

 

 

One of those points, ac was nerfed a bit since chesta and his invoker rampage yes?

[Anonymous]

1 minute ago, Trick said:

If that is how the class is SUPPOSED to work, then its totally fine and working as intended, but I do not think that is how ninjas are conceptually supposed to run.

Like I said before, ninjas are designed to set up a victory in a rogue-like manner through debuffs and surprise. Your path, in particular, is designed to set up a fight better than any other by strangling through poison to land your debuffs and begin a fight with the upperhand. That's what a ROGUE is. What you did was what a WARRIOR would do. Each ninja has a path that is supposed to fill in an offensive gap. 

Is what I'm saying making sense?

No because you keep ignoring the easy question I'm giving you and keep attaching the word ninja to it and highlighting other theoretical matchups that aren't applicable here lol. 

All classes with those tools I mentioned can do that. We both have had some rivalries over the years and are both probably considered great pk'ers that have influence on others. But you have a tendency to make broad statements that I'll paraphrase @Anumeon, may misinform other players and doesn't always help.

For instance my average breath saves changed significantly pre vs post eq re-balancing. This has a significant impact on Bard balance that wasn't there just a few weeks ago. Its not right to keep up the negative perception of them unless new substantial evidence is provided. Sadly I hear we lost a player due to it.

@Archbishop Monk1.In my experience this doesn't necessarily have to be done as much compared to thieves, its much more game breaking to get your eq stolen. Nevertheless this is an advantage to playing a ninja or thief not sure what the issue is. 2. Yes this does add to there survivability that no other class really has I'll agree with you there. Though I've never seen it be a big issue in logs yet. Maybe Imms can give there input on whether its no longer needed for them and should be removed.

@Tarakoagain nothing other classes with those skills I mentioned can't do, not just warriors, dk's, druids you're being very selective with words I used. If jutsu is the issue lets bring it up in a different pk log. As it wasn't applicable here.

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

[Archbishop Monk]

5 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

 

@Archbishop Monk1.In my experience this doesn't necessarily have to be done as much compared to thieves, its much more game breaking to get your eq stolen. Nevertheless this is an advantage to playing a ninja or thief not sure what the issue is. 2. Yes this does add to there survivability that no other class really has I'll agree with you there. Though I've never seen it be a big issue in logs yet. Maybe Imms can give there input on whether its no longer needed for them and should be removed.

 

The issue with the first point you showed in the log.  You pushed his offense and defense away from him by pushing the mummy.  You could do this freely because he was strangled.  Can a thief remove the mummy like that?  A warrior?  No.  But, does a ninja then require having the offense of either of those because he can do that?

 

Edit: I am not against Mordred in any way either.  I actually enjoy the character, so I am just looking at the capabilities from this log and the many other ninja I have faced.

[Trick]

The reason I am expanding onto the question is that your question isn't just a yes or no question. You WANT me to answer it so you can say you're right, but the question is more complex than that. Quoting others to try to make me look like I don't know what I am saying won't win you this either. My broad statements are usually correct, but in this thread alone we have had 4 other people agree with what I am saying and not one has agreed with you, but you're sticking to your guns. You want it all to come down to a single, over-simplified question and that question isn't the entire point of the conversation. 

To flip it: Do you think a ninja should be able to use JUST those things and win?

 

 

[Anonymous]

1 minute ago, Trick said:

The reason I am expanding onto the question is that your question isn't just a yes or no question. You WANT me to answer it so you can say you're right, but the question is more complex than that. Quoting others to try to make me look like I don't know what I am saying won't win you this either. You want it all to come down to a single, over-simplified question and that question isn't the entire point of the conversation. 

To flip it: Do you think a ninja should be able to use JUST those things and win?

But I'm quoting you lol.

To answer your question, Yes because any classes with those abilities can lol. If you change what happened in this log you're making a big change across FL because many classes share those same skills. I don't mind having this conversation in my other pk's where I have to use those tactics where we both probably agree on things. But at this period I think I've proved my point. 

@Archbishop MonkNinjas can't steal, place traps, use 4th attack/riposte, or bash lock opponents. Thieves and Warriors are exceptionally offensive beasts in the right hands. I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

[Trick]

I meant paraphrasing Anume, my fault.

I don’t think you’ve proved anything. I think you’ve shown that no matter how many people, points, or examples are used to prove you wrong and show why what you are saying or doing shouldn’t happen the way it does you will continue to argue your stance and fail to concede a single point. You’re grasping to the one question as if that will someone how prove you right in all of this. And it won’t. 

I’m done with this thread. Good luck with your toon. 😁

[Anonymous]

I'm pretty shocked that the original purpose of that i should have been EASIER to kill. The reason I mentioned 20% is because you had many murder rounds throughout our fights where I lost 200 to 240 hp in a round. That it 20 to 24% of my hp while I cannot hit you back. You saying that I shouldn't get a chance to live after the fourth or fifth round of combat is pretty indicative of your desire to be a pk monster as opposed to having a truly balanced gamestate. Ninjas are easily the most played melee class in the game. Give me another class that has 3 to 4 active. It's been stated a few times that you shouldn't be able to compare the melee output of a rogue to a purely melee character. That isn't how a rogue should function. Thieves can steal, but they cannot dirt murder their way through the playerbase. The last thief that got away with that caused heavy changes, and made sure thieves can't be gladiators because of how imbalanced it was. A thief requires patience and a setup, a ninja requires a macro. One herbal brew and thief setup is mostly wasted. While herbal brew for a ninja mostly doesn't matter. The melee classes don't need to waste the time, and the other paths where gonna poison you anyway.

Belvicet

Anonymous poster hash: 4fb0c...abf

[Twinblades713]

To kinda reiterate what @Archbishop Monk monk stated but add a little more, not only do ninjas have this type of output fairly regularly (Kalurin, Seviks, Gordy, Tanjiro, Lentaries, Mordred) but if things go poorly they also have an exceptional amount of defensive capabilities that very few other classes have. They can easily compete, and often dominate, the output competition. They also have hide/vanish/mals, burst heal via acupuncture, sustained heal via cure light... what happens to the warrior when he starts losing? Better start hoofin it buddy. The issue was the same with Bards before, the kit is extremely rounded to the point of being the best at a lot of aspects of PK and having comparative to other classes few windows of opportunity for defeat.

[Atticus]

Twin hit it on the head.

[Anume]

Guys, you seriously need to stop the torch-waving witch hunts.

If you think there is a balance issue, provide logs, yes. We'll do our best to evaluate and tone if necessary. What you need to stop is taking very unbalanced set ups (e.g uncablled mediocre dressed char vs fully decked cabal elder) and then post these as an indication that we have an inbalance issue. If the uncaballed poorly dressed guy rofl stomps the decked cabal E, then we'd probably look into it. If the E stomps that other guy that is kind of what is to be expected and not NECESSARILY a sign of imbalance. Sometimes it's also player skill involved.

Some things can be taken out of such unbalanced set ups but to fully evaluate the balance of a class is only possible in several fights against different opponents of similar eq, skill, cabal rank.

I'd be very happy if we get more ninja pk logs with opponents of similar eq / skill / cabal setup.

Same goes for bards.

I would also love to hear specific suggestions regarding ninja paths on prayer. E.g. DS should lose skill x, etc.

[Anonymous]

16 minutes ago, Twinblades713 said:

To kinda reiterate what @Archbishop Monk monk stated but add a little more, not only do ninjas have this type of output fairly regularly (Kalurin, Seviks, Gordy, Tanjiro, Lentaries, Mordred) but if things go poorly they also have an exceptional amount of defensive capabilities that very few other classes have. They can easily compete, and often dominate, the output competition. They also have hide/vanish/mals, burst heal via acupuncture, sustained heal via cure light... what happens to the warrior when he starts losing? Better start hoofin it buddy. The issue was the same with Bards before, the kit is extremely rounded to the point of being the best at a lot of aspects of PK and having comparative to other classes few windows of opportunity for defeat.

Thank you for the constructive examples. Makes sense when you compare them that way. Hide + Vanish and Acupuncture + Cure light giving them advantages they probably shouldn't have. Its hard to actually see those being used in most pk logs but they almost always have an impact. 

@Belvicet you outmelee'd me a few times too. Sorry you see the post that way. I hope you got something out of knowing you can use 'nofollow' to prevent what happened in the future. In my opinion to achieve a better balanced gamestate in our matchup I'd probably focus more on AC and tactics where you don't leave yourself so open. Your race and cabal doesn't help you defensively much compared to others.

 

Mordred

Anonymous poster hash: d7742...0f8

[f0xx]

How is everyone fine with this wimpy flee?

Really? 

How is a mage supposed to die even if he is not a total noob?

You can't lag them, you can't keep them in combat, wimpy cuts rounds in half and flees for you for no lag at all.

But no....

A decked elder class that is strong against mages kills a noob underdressed uncaballed mage, and that's a proof that this class is OP?

Flawless logic.

[Trick]

You're kind of a really nice guy, you know that?

Not every thread has to be about wimpy, dude. Get over it.

[aaa]

1 hour ago, f0xx said:

How is a mage supposed to die even if he is not a total noob? 

This is literally an example of how. 

[Anonymous]

5 hours ago, f0xx said:

How is everyone fine with this wimpy flee?

Really? 

How is a mage supposed to die even if he is not a total noob?

You can't lag them, you can't keep them in combat, wimpy cuts rounds in half and flees for you for no lag at all.

But no....

A decked elder class that is strong against mages kills a noob underdressed uncaballed mage, and that's a proof that this class is OP?

Flawless logic.

 I have over 400, cabal m, and he is cabal v.  Being decked shouldn't just be the gold pass for easy wins. If eq is that big a factor then maybe that's the problem. The pointhe everyone is trying to make is trying his isn't even a make else ninja path, and is able trying his own or this. The fact that you received saying well he has the eq, you need to shut up and die is insane. This is also vs a soul tapped army with me casting at level 52 mals, and prepared to fight the rogue with poison, wand of wind. Please by all means explain how I could have done things differently instead of just blasting off with a solid dose of arrogance. I have 1k hp and he's hitting 200+ reliably without me being blind. If your answer is "get best in slot eq" then I think that's pretty indicative of how needed the eq rebalance is.

 

Belvicet

Anonymous poster hash: 4fb0c...abf

[tassinvegeta]

I don't think you should take this so personal Belvicet. I think they're trying to point out that wimpy doesn't differentiate whether its Belvicet that's using it or decked, vet, Savant Elders whom never die anyway. This log is rare in that you almost never see the wimpy abuse + auto-follow. Here you see the aggressor stuck watching the victim move multiple rooms away while he's stuck in the murder lag. In other pk logs you'll see the aggressor try to catch up and anticipate the victims moves once or twice to try to get the kill. It seems very unrealistic to imagine even the fastest chaser having to do this five times in a match of equal footing where they may deserve the kill.