Is it Classy?

[Twinblades713]

I've noticed we have a fair few new players, and these discussions always come around when a circumstance presents itself. How do we believe? What is important to the game? What actions are appropriate and what actions go too far? This is meant to be a Twinblades guide to how I understand classy play while also playing the game to its fullest. In PK, when we die it never feels good. But The Forsaken Lands is a RP enforced PK mud, and PK will happen. I wanted to present some examples that I believe are completely legitimate and some that may be seen as less than savory. We all know the most clear understanding of a fight where neither side is likely to get upset would be a duel to the stun. In this situation, both sides know the rules and bounds of the fight and the result is absent of any real punishment. Nobody dies, nobody loses equipment or items, and the only thing gained is experience. But this is not how most fighting in FL goes, does it? I have made a list of points I think are important to understand about PK in FL. Of course if any Immortals disagree with me entirely, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. There will of course be many opinions on this topic, and I encourage debate but these are just my opinions. I do think they are a good guide to understand if you're being treated poorly or if certain tactics are legitimate. This post has nothing to do with me, or any character I've played. It has no bearing on any events or characters in game recently or otherwise. It is simply a discussion and explanation of expectations in The Forsaken Lands.

So, what types of PK are illegal (cheating) for the average character? 

-Multi-charactering in order to gang, which is already entirely unapproved for any reason.

-OOC actions in game as a result of a PK encounter or anything else. This is not directly cheating, but as an RP enforced MUD saying negative or hateful things that are not of the spirit of your character is never acceptable.

-OOC targeting. You lost a PK encounter or had a conflict with someone so you roll another character, usually one that has an advantage over your target, in order to beat that character and make them suffer. This can be hard to prove, but if you get caught it can result in punishment and denial of your character.

-Other examples of OOC actions in game would be 1) Placing a bounty and then collecting it. 2) Placing a bounty and collecting it with a different character. 3) Killing a character for no reason other than you do not like the player of that character. Read the Divine Mandates to get a complete understanding of all potential OOC actions that can result in punishment.

What restrictions to PK exist?

-Goods cannot attack or kill other Goods for any reason without risking (Outcast). Goods must have a good reason to fight neutrals or risk (Outcast). Reasons may include being attacked first, or the neutral is a cabal enemy. Goods however can attack evils on sight, with the exceptions of Sigils and Healers who cannot be overly aggressive. 

-Neutrals cannot attack* anyone at all without a good reason, lest they risk (Outcast). Reasons may include being attacked first, or the enemy is in a vendetta'd cabal. *Thieving including steal/pry is considered an attack.

-Evils can attack anyone they want for any reason. They are not PK restricted by any means. There may still be other consequences from other sources depending on your situation. (Your cabal Immortal may not appreciate you killing your allies in some situations)

-Lawful characters cannot attack anyone in a city without risking (Outcast). 

Now that we have those out of the way, I wanted to introduce some things that are generally considered on the spectrum from classy to trashy behavior, and try to illuminate what makes this game unique and what behavior generally turns players away. We all know what classy is. It is behavior that generally results in players not feeling bad about the outcome of a PK encounter. But regardless of the encounter there is always a possibility of feeling bad. Some actions are considered below the average FL player, some actions are debatable, and some actions may feel bad but are generally accepted strategy. Immortals, specifically those who govern Cabals, can impose PK restrictions for their religions and Cabal members that may be outside of, or in addition to what is generally accepted, at their own discretion. This is also subject to change.

Actions that are generally considered trashy:

-Intentional ganging. Ganging is defined in FL as two characters physically grouping or directly coordinating together to kill another player. Tagging is defined as attacking someone who has very recently been in combat with another and is recovering from battle. These are -not- illegal or restricted except to Quest classes and races. These two are very rare. Tagging is far more common as it is possible to happen on accident, when the new opponent was not aware of your previous PK encounter.

-Full looting is its own discussion. It has MANY factors, and I will address it somewhat separately at the end of each topic. Full looting is completely allowed within your ability to do so. However it is considered trashy when done in order to grief the other person, especially if they were easy to defeat. FL has grown in many aspects and this topic is always up for debate. Full loots used to be common, but they tend to turn players away when they feel undeserved. It is not always an easy climb to a solid set of equipment, and this setback can be rage/despair inducing.

Actions that are considered less than savory: 

-Intentionally tagging. This can be ambiguous but if you know someone was fighting another and you use this knowledge to gain an upper hand in a PK, this may result in some negative feelings by the recipient of the behavior.

-Waiting at a temple pit for a player to recall in order to kill them. Seen as some by a legitimate way to catch someone, this is similar to intentional tagging. While they may coming home from a far area or just using recall as a way to travel quickly, it is very common for players to recall whilst hurt in order to survive a PK. Dying after using recall to escape can result in negative feelings for the recipient.

-Silent PK. I personally don't have a problem with this but I am representing a common understanding in general. This is not trashy, but dying to a character you've never met before often leaves a bad taste in the victim's mouth. The difficult concept here is that many characters have Role Play that does not require them to declare their intentions everywhere they go or every time they choose to kill someone. On the flip side, it is more rewarding for someone to hear the intentions of their killer and at least have a chance to decide against the fight and run away. This is often why people silent PK, the element of surprise is often critical to sealing a PK against someone who is not ready. 

-Multikilling unwilling opponents. There are measures in game to stop this from happening like the Moderate Tier. This point only applies when the killer does this with the intention of griefing and it does not apply to Cabal Warfare and similar duties. (Syndicates and bounties, Tribunals and WANTED).

-Killing AFK opponents. It can sometimes be difficult to determine who is AFK, and intentional AFK is frowned upon in FL. Killing someone who is AFK will not usually result in punishment, but will leave the victim unhappy with the results.

-Looting and sacrificing items just so the enemy doesn't have them. For me this is situational. If your opponent is much stronger than you or roughly your skill, this can level the playing field and lets you "knock them down a peg." If you beat your opponent handily, then unnecessary sacrificing can cause despair in your opponent and ruin a desire to play or the ability to compete.

Actions that may not feel good but are generally accepted strategy:

-Otherwise clever use of meta and class skills. Summoning behind a locked door. Assassinate. Blackjack and backstab without sanctuary. Bashlocking smaller folks as a giant. Dispel and hellstream. Running away and healing. Disarming and sacrificing weapons. Cleaving weapons. These can leave the victim feeling like they had no chance, but FL includes countermeasures for all of these and they are generally accepted class strategy.

-Attacking someone who is on an EQ trip or fighting a mob.

-Attacking someone who is training or questing.

-Attacking someone who is weaker than you.

-Avoiding PK when you have no responsibilities. Some folks want their PK and the want it NOW! If you have no loyalty to a Cabal, you have no requirement to fight anyone at any time. Whether you are able to escape a PK encounter is another point entirely.

-Having no reason to kill someone except being Evil. This applies mostly with DKs, Evil Clerics, Evil Barbarians and maybe Thieves who have built in motivations to kill or rob people. It is usually understood that these characters are risky to interact with and may not want to give away their element of surprise in order to secure a PK. This can also apply to Goods who kill Evils, but is not as common.

-Looting items you need. It never feels good to lose items, and feels even worse to die to someone who has very weak or no equipment. This usually results in a heavy loot, but if your attacker can use it all effectively it is in his interest to take it. This is just a harsh reality of FL. 

-Sacrificing items. This is mentioned above as well. Sometimes it is in your interest to take your opponents  +Spell level, Avg 31 vuln weapon, or haste item. These items are exceptionally powerful and can make overcoming your enemy very difficult. In the event you DO beat them, it is normal to not want to deal with that very strong item again, at least for the near future.

Actions that are completely optional but may improve the experience for anyone, especially newer players: 

-Giving in character PK tips to a person you have just beaten. Not everyone is in the mood for advice, but if done in good spirit this can soften the blow of a PK.

-Giving mercy or otherwise staying your hand for a kill to those you have beaten, if it is in your RP to do so. 

-Announcing your intentions for PK. This can feel bad if the other party decides to head for the hills and you have to miss out on a chance for a PK, but if you announce your intentions and they engage it is less likely they will feel like they had no control in the situation.

-Within reason, you can aid someone you have just beaten by helping them get gear to be more competitive. Note: This may not ever be viable if you and your opponent are in opposing cabals or in a similar situation.

In conclusion:

I generally believe the vast majority of FL players are classy, solid players who love RP, and PK with good intentions. Every situation has circumstances and none of this is rule of law or definite. Sometimes it is hard to know if you're being taken advantage of as a new player or there are just tactics and strategy you have not yet learned. If there are any points the majority of readers heavily disagree with I am happy to amend my points. The possibility of death is invigorating and makes FL more alive and exciting than most games that exist today. Every death is an opportunity to learn, and understanding the difference between being griefed and just being defeated is important to maintain a good mentality. This may draw some controversy but it is an attempt to bring us together with an understanding of what makes PK fun and what to expect when you roll up. Thanks for reading!

Edits in italics to start.

[aaa]

2 hours ago, Twinblades713 said:

Actions that are generally considered trashy:

-Intentional ganging. Ganging is defined in FL as two characters physically grouping or directly coordinating together to kill another player. Tagging is defined as attacking someone who has very recently been in combat with another and is recovering from battle. These are -not- illegal or restricted except to Quest classes and races. These two are very rare. Tagging is far more common as it is possible to happen on accident, when the new opponent was not aware of your previous PK encounter.

Gotta disagree with this section. Ganging is often presented as a solution on how to take down some big baddies.

I'd personally love to see some newer players group up and take down some vets.

[Lloth]

Some examples of illegal PKs: 

Placing a bounty and then collecting it.

Placing a bounty on an alt to collect on another character.

Killing someone because they killed/disrespected/conflict with another of your characters.

Killing someone because you don't like who you think plays them, or for the sole purpose of harassment.

 

 

There are illegal PKs, and it is a bad idea to paint it otherwise. Read the Divine Mandates section for more examples of illegality in PK.

['tarako]

I don't have too many issues with most pvp. Unnecessary gangs, and purposefully going after only fresh 50s, or relentless multikilling of new people bothers me. I've seen several players at 50 recently who are obviously newer players, but decked veteran players are relentlessly destroying and looting them. I've also seen these characters not log back in afterwards.

[Rygothran]

Nothing wrong with going after brand new level 50s. You don't get a pass just because you don't have great equipment or aren't prepared for what is to come yet. Never being safe at level 50 is part of the fun of FL.

While not always against the rules, older players just need to realize you can't use new players as whipping posts and expect them to stay around. There needs to be a level of class so we can retain new players.

['tarako]

12 minutes ago, Rygothran said:

 There needs to be a level of class so we can retain new players.

This is exactly my point.

 

And I'm not suggesting that a fresh pinn should be left alone. I'm saying there are several characters who have pk records that consist almost solely of fresh 50s, or newer players that can't pose a threat. They then avoid anyone who can pose a threat. That annoys me greatly. Not saying it's against any rules, just extremely douchey that they would be completely unwilling to fight someone who could kill them.

[Twinblades713]

Good points @Lloth. I have rearranged some of the points to support your post. 

@Wade So situational ganging? I'm assuming you wouldn't be for the reverse, letting established, caballed characters group up for some roflstomps?

@'tarako This is a tough one, because I do support teaching new players the ropes and not crushing them and leaving them hopeless, but on the flip side we have built in class mechanics that somewhat support this playstyle, DKs most notably. Perhaps I will add in a penultimate section that offers some options of proactively classy behavior.

['tarako]

That's part of the problem. A couple classes power is based directly off of their pk count so they have incentives for doing exactly that. It's more a person all stance for me. I'd rather go 10 and 10 and fight hard fights than go 50 and 5 and never really risk anything. I know alot of being a legendary character is tied to longevity and pk record so I can kind of understand the mentality of only fighting when you have huge advantages. Death is to be avoided as well. I just don't really agree with characters that make it their whole approach to fl pvp

[Ulmusdorn]

Ganging is no longer illegal. This was changed some time ago.

However the old adage: You reap what you sow comes to mind. Get known as a ganger or a 'tagger' and people will have much less sympathy or mercy. 

[aaa]

@Twinblades713 the ideal solution is to change things so a singular character can't get to the status where another single character can't kill them.

Making rules or exceptions about ganging and what not is just treating a symptom and not the cause. 

 

['tarako]

I mean in a nutshell you're right wade, but player skill, class familiarity, and the paper rock scissors nature of FL pvp makes balancing 1v1 nearly impossible.

[aaa]

The more variables something has, the harder it is to balance. 

Its a far easier task to balance the game of checkers than chess. 

Reduce some variables until some balance can be achieved then reintroduce variables slowly. 

[Fool_Hardy]

Very cool topic @Twinblades713. Very astute observation.

There is a difference between having no class and breaking the rules. People just need to evaluate what is important and weigh it against what they say is important.

[mya]

How in hell is placing a bounty and then collecting on it is illegal? 

It sounds like perfectly legitimate behaviour.

Also since when is making counter characters also illegal?

[Trick]

Placing a bounty, then collecting your own places bounty is illegal because of the work arounds it provides, in my opinion.

1. It circumvents Life Insurance so you get a bag.

2. It ignores placing someone in jail if Tribunal.

3. It lets Syndicate use one of their cabal skills, an advantage that could be gained if you are the Syndicate.

4. If done across different characters, it’s a way to transfer gold/CP to the collecting character and items to the placing character.

I could prolly go on, but that sounds like a good amount, lol.

['tarako]

25 minutes ago, mya said:

How in hell is placing a bounty and then collecting on it is illegal? 

It sounds like perfectly legitimate behaviour.

Also since when is making counter characters also illegal?

In addition to what trick said,  it also works around neutral pk restrictions.  

 

It's never been illegal, but I waa under the impression it was a super douchey move to roll a char to counter one person

[Shagarh]

11 hours ago, 'tarako said:

In addition to what trick said,  it also works around neutral pk restrictions.  

 

It's never been illegal, but I waa under the impression it was a super douchey move to roll a char to counter one person

Rolling "counter characters" can also be illegal if it clearly breaches OOC behavior rules.

For example:

1. Character A dies to Character B.
2. Character A rage deletes and rolls a falcon eye ninja with the intent of griefing Character B.
3. Character A's new ninja proceeds to kill or try to kill Character B with no RP reason to do so (or a very questionable RP justification for doing so).

Another example:

1. Character A is in Watcher and is having problems with certain Tribunals.
2. Character A makes another character specifically for the purpose of killing/looting said Tribunals to assist their Watcher.

This is transferring OOC grudges and is against the rules. 

In circumstances where there are a couple of powerhouses at 50, and a player rolls a new character with the intention of being competitive with these powerhouses, there is nothing strictly OOC about that.  OOC issues arise when a player is transferring OOC grudges to their new character.

[f0xx]

4 hours ago, Shagarh said:

Rolling "counter characters" can also be illegal if it clearly breaches OOC behavior rules.

For example:

1. Character A dies to Character B.
2. Character A rage deletes and rolls a falcon eye ninja with the intent of griefing Character B.
3. Character A's new ninja proceeds to kill or try to kill Character B with no RP reason to do so (or a very questionable RP justification for doing so).

Another example:

1. Character A is in Watcher and is having problems with certain Tribunals.
2. Character A makes another character specifically for the purpose of killing/looting said Tribunals to assist their Watcher.

This is transferring OOC grudges and is against the rules. 

Everything mentioned is OOC grudges and has little to do with rolling counters, which has never been illegal and will never be, since it's impossible to prove.

[Shagarh]

16 hours ago, f0xx said:

Everything mentioned is OOC grudges and has little to do with rolling counters, which has never been illegal and will never be, since it's impossible to prove.

That's why I put "counter characters" in inverted commas, because people often confuse the issue of transferring OOC grudges and rolling a counter character.