Hwaarhuh (uncabaled Feral Ninja) vs Ahxnar (Syndi E Ogre Ranger)

[Celerity]

Ahxnar has a ton of room to improve based on these logs, but dang, that is simply too much melee output by the uncaballed ninja. I don't even want to think about if it were combined with cabal skills or even with just optimized tactics.

[English lad]

9 hours ago, Celerity said:

Ahxnar has a ton of room to improve based on these logs, but dang, that is simply too much melee output by the uncaballed ninja. I don't even want to think about if it were combined with cabal skills or even with just optimized tactics.

I still think the issue is with Jutsu - I don't know if this was coded exactly the same as Pugil (it was described as a poor man's Pugil.) but these sorts of rounds are not rare - and this is using a two handed sword, which is also a far more defensive weapon than a warrior would need to be using to put out this sort of damage (dual axes / whips etc)

[Kyzarius]

4 hours ago, English lad said:

I still think the issue is with Jutsu - I don't know if this was coded exactly the same as Pugil (it was described as a poor man's Pugil.) but these sorts of rounds are not rare - and this is using a two handed sword, which is also a far more defensive weapon than a warrior would need to be using to put out this sort of damage (dual axes / whips etc)

have you leveled with one? The damage Boost jutsu brings beats dual wielding by a pretty large margin. 

['tarako]

27 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

have you leveled with one? The damage Boost jutsu brings beats dual wielding by a pretty large margin. 

It also takes away the need to dual wield ever. It's a damage buff and equivalent attacks, and more defense. No downside to jutsu

[egreir]

jutsu has been broken for a long long time, but everyone is scared to talk about stuff because of the backlash it brings. Anyone who analyzes the output from a ninja vs a dual wield 3rd attack toon or a pugil toon can see the isssue.

[egreir]

If I had to guess, it's how the skill processes h2h in the calculation.  there's some kind of proficiency thing or something that allows them to land way too often

[egreir]

anyone remember when jutsu would land h2h strikes as well?  Pepperidge Farm remembers.

[Trick]

My complaint with it is ninjas are no longer a rogue-type class with this skill being as strong as it is. You don't need to utilize the rest of your arsenal to win a fight. I rarely used my smokes/decoy as Kalurin. My strategy was exactly what won the fights above, flee/murder or push/murder. If your enemy has a vulnerability, then its over twice as fast. 

Reduce the effectiveness of jutsu by a small margin and we'll see where we are, then continue to adjust until its comparable to the other rogue class, thieves.

[Archbishop Monk]

My serious issue with ninjas still remains not only in their offense, but in their defensive capabilities.  Take thieves.  Catch a thief in the open and you can shatter them quickly and their recovery will take quite some time.  A ninja, can recover faster than any other rogue-like class with their skills.  Combine that with this strong of an offense, and you have a class that hits multiple catagories of PK efficiently.

[f0xx]

17 hours ago, Celerity said:

Ahxnar has a ton of room to improve based on these logs....

He has a ton to improve? That's some understatement.... he fought without sanc in one of the logs.

As much as I want to make some conclusion out of these logs, I don't know:

1) Their gear

2) Ahxnar's buffs

What we do know is that:

1) The ninja is very well prepared, and you can tell that by his affect list. He basically has every single possible buff he can get his hands on.

2) The ranger playes very poorly.

 

That being said, everyone seems to forget that a 24 dex, two-handed weapon wielding feral is fighting a 18 dex ogre who is dual wielding (two probably low defense weapons). On top of that, the ogre is playing very very bad. And while the ninja in this log acts very modestly, he is a very good PKer, probably better than 90% of the playerbase and has played some very high profile characters with extremely good PK records in the past.

And lastly, everyone seems to be crazy about the fact that the ogre is elder syndi and the ninja is uncaballed. But what does that even change in a situation like this? Shadow arts? It's not like he has forms, call void or any other cabal skill that can significantly changes the direct battle prowess of a character. Syndicate offers tracking tools mostly, but hardly any skills that can swing the tide of the combat.

If you want to prove something is OP, then first of all play right. Using a log in which someone plays so badly as an argument that a class is OP is not fair. I mean, if this ogre was played by Trick, the ninja wouldn't have been able to get him to half his HP.

Besides, it's so easy to counter a DS ninja - all you have to do is dirt, as we saw in the last log.

If not dirt, then engage first and take away his murder rounds.

But that takes speed and skill.

 

 

PS. If you want a log where the opponent actually plays well, here's one.

['tarako]

Syndi Elder gives you the single strongest ability versus, until recently, typical rogue playstyle. 

 

I'm confused, are you saying doublesheath ninja isn't disproportionately strong? And what does a thief combo that was dubbed broken and removed from the game have to do with this log. The majority of players all agree ninjas have too much going for them. The only ones I see who vocally oppose any possible balancing either don't play anymore, or play ninjas. I've played several ninjas. I'd love to credit my meager success to my ability but pretty sure the truth is that ninjas are a bit out of balance with their burst damage and incredible surviveable skill set.

[tassinvegeta]

I think if Ninjas could rely more on other abilities to win rather than pure melee this issue would go away. Problem is there other abilities are easily negated via stat & saves eq & poisoning yourself. Strats which thieves are able to get around but Ninjas can't so they have rely on direct melee. Funny thing is that the ninja has no chance as long as Ahxnar dirts and stays in sanc lol but no one really sees that. Every class should have the ability to kill another. My personal opinion of the issue with ninjas is that there focus is put into the wrong area, esp DS ninjas. 

[f0xx]

1 hour ago, 'tarako said:

...pretty sure the truth is that ninjas are a bit out of balance with their burst damage and incredible surviveable skill set.

Prove your words then?

Show a log where the opposite side playes well, at least on the level of the ninja, and gets totally destroyed (and is not a class that the ninja is strong against like clerics or rangers by the way).

Because that is what "disproportionately strong" strong means.

Once again, using a log where one side plays very badly and gets destroyed, doesn't mean that the other side is "disproportionately strong".

I've personally absolutely destroyed ninjas with my invokers, dark knights, berserkers, warriors, and some of those weren't even serious projects.

Ninjas get absolutely shut down by the usual rogue banes (if played right) i.e. crusaders, warriors, berserkers, vampires even some hybrids prove quite a challenge when in the right hands i.e. druids (sarcon) and DKNs (tassin).

[Trick]

Wrong log. I, unintentionally, posted a log that does not line up with what I was saying. I'll have more time tomorrow morning to edit the chasing in the ACTUAL log I meant to post. It is a mino, not an FG, though. My mistake.

['tarako]

https://theforsakenlands.com/topic/41774-feral-nin-vs-und-monk/

Consistent non vuln caps damage with 38 damroll, and 0 buffs beyond class skills, and forgot some of those.

And truthfully there aren't many logs of ninjas on forum. I'm speaking from personal experience. Having played 3 dblsheath  (elf, human avatar, slith) 2 lotus scourge  (undead, and slith). The elf, with no vuln arrows, bad eq and terrible hit dam absolutely pummeled a decked vamp with just murder and push. As well as having fought a great many ninjas. These classes where much more lethal with less effort required for consumables and armor. It's crazy that you so adamantly disagree with what is a fairly common opinion of ninjas. I am far from the only person who thinks so

[Kyzarius]

f0xx are you playing again? 

[f0xx]

I don't understand what is going on here....

I ask for a log where your opponent plays well and you still destroy him.

Trick posts a log of some fire giant that's completely inadequate - second part of the log he is blind the entire time while you are hasted and not blind. He's trying to run away from you while you are having a field day with him, murdering then him fleeing. What do you expect to happen? First part is a bit more interesting, but again, all he does is 2 dirt kicks, first one you avoid smartly, second one is gona after one round due to bad timing. Not a single haymaker, roar, weapon cleave, or (contrary to what you said) RAGE. He wasn't raged so you're basically fighting a gimped fire warrior who's not even using a fire weapon. Is this how you play your fire giants Trick? Is this your definition of "good play"?

2 hours ago, Trick said:

A raged FG zerk losing to a ninja with a massive EQ disparity? 

We see his EQ, which is not "not great, not terrible". We don't see yours though, but we know you wear a mask of discord, which everyone knows is a very "mediocre" item. I assume your other items are quite "mediocre" too.

 

 

On the other hand Tarako's log is even funnier, since he shows a log where he's fighting Agmeel who's trying to take his standard and is not even targetting him. Once he starts targetting him, he dies.

Still claims ninjas are OP though.

 

 

 

[Trick]

I’ll get the other log ready when I can.

And @f0xx, look at your log. Your opponent dropped his stance twice when fighting you and took massacres/dismembers from it.. that’s good play to you?

That’s how you’d play your Gladiators? 

You can also look at my log vs Medvhaar. A character that was dominating everyone AND played by a VERY good PKer. 

[f0xx]

2 minutes ago, Trick said:

I’ll get the other log ready when I can.

And @f0xx, look at your log. Your opponent dropped his stance twice when fighting you and took massacres/dismembers from it.. that’s good play to you?

That’s how you’d play your Gladiators? 

Kelmi did make some small mistakes, still won though, against my ninja. Does that prove your point that ninjas are OP though?

[Trick]

I can go through your log and point out your mistakes to disprove your point that they aren’t op...

[f0xx]

1 minute ago, Trick said:

I can go through your log and out your bad plays and prove that they aren’t OP?

I don't quite understand what you mean....

[Rygothran]

Rhextar was a minotaur... unless fire giants have horns and hooves...? Just pointing that out.

['tarako]

I didn't play kittori

[Trick]

5 minutes ago, f0xx said:

I don't quite understand what you mean....

Edited it. Sorry, my fingers went faster than my brain.

[English lad]

10 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

I didn't play kittori

That was Zrothum no?