Help a Mage is wrecking me.

[Izzzzy]

Okay so I have been getting some pms from newer players asking about mages.

 

Want to say Kudos to the immortals for balancing the Eq, it really has changed the dynamics of mage vs melee evening the odds.  Thank god double murder rounds are gone.

 

You can't just stack hit/dam vs a good mage, You are gonna die (Unless you are a certain beast class, or a feral).  You also can't overdue it with saves or you wont hurt the mage.  Gotta find that nice sweet spot.

 

What kinda mage am I fighting is the question you have to ask yourself.  This is where you type help (spell)  It will tell you what you need to save against.  Once you've done that explore for those kind of saves, ask around in game.  I am not just gonna tell you here.

 

Once you feel like you've got all your stuff the best way to test if your saves are good is to fight the UNDEAD WIGHT.  It pretty much hits you with every kinda spell and you can see if your hit dam is nice and balanced, and your saves are good enough.

 

There you go.

[Ulmusdorn]

I'll paraphrase: "Git Gud".

[Ulmusdorn]

On a more serious note because my previous post deserved its own slot...

You want to be hitting a minimum of:

40 HIT/DAM
-15 SVS  + Changeable eq to manage the mage you're fighting. In my experience you want to have at least -35 across the board to be defensive (escape and not die). -45+ (-15 in svspell and 30 in the save slot) will make you more competitive (read as aggressive). See what lands, switch eq accordingly - aka dispel happy? Get a double plated helm for that fight.

Pick good weapons - I mean like axes which they don't know.

Always use protection. Always.

Always Remember: Mages have a much quicker 'powerspike'. Melees need to wear you down over 5-10 rounds. Mages can land a dispel and kill you in 2 (hellsteaming/call lightning invoker for example). If you are a melee and you get below 50% of your hp, if you aren't wining --> Bail and reset. 

['tarako]

I've found more luck stacking hit dam, and using consumables for resetting sanc and curing mals. Prayer has got countless logs from me saying what the hell is going in when I'm failing saves constantly with 50 to 60 saves in a respective category. The higher your saves, the less pressure you can apply. They are going to hit key spells no matter what your saves are. When mages can pretty much all cast at +2 to 4 spell level, your saves really don't matter much. Just be prepared, poison yourself, carry gyvels, carry 5 black leaves on yourself, get the items that cast esuna, get the items that cure mals, use temple healers. I've had imms tell me I'm way over saves cap 20 minutes after I got slepthe 3/3 times and was eating constant dispels. You are gonna be better off preparing to deal with spell effects directly instead of relying on stacking saves with the intent of ignoring spell effects

[Ulmusdorn]

3 hours ago, 'tarako said:

I've found more luck stacking hit dam, and using consumables for resetting sanc and curing mals. Prayer has got countless logs from me saying what the hell is going in when I'm failing saves constantly with 50 to 60 saves in a respective category. The higher your saves, the less pressure you can apply. They are going to hit key spells no matter what your saves are. When mages can pretty much all cast at +2 to 4 spell level, your saves really don't matter much. Just be prepared, poison yourself, carry gyvels, carry 5 black leaves on yourself, get the items that cast esuna, get the items that cure mals, use temple healers. I've had imms tell me I'm way over saves cap 20 minutes after I got slepthe 3/3 times and was eating constant dispels. You are gonna be better off preparing to deal with spell effects directly instead of relying on stacking saves with the intent of ignoring spell effects

Alrighty then.

['tarako]

It wasn't meant to say skip saves all together, I'd like to clarify.  Just saying if you have questions choose between 15 saves across with 55 55 hit dam and 30 saves with 40 40 hit dam, I'm always going to choose more his dam from now on.

[Venom]

I believe it very much depends of the battle, but with Dace (war min) I've always felt more comfortable with more saves sacrificing hit/dam. I've battled invoker with 15 saves, 30saves, 50 saves and ~70 saves and I've had the best results with 70 saves, even that I've sacrificed a lot from hit/dam.

[Ali_gmud]

Most mage classes have mental spells, whether its minister, dispel magic, most of the PSI arsenal. And what I am struggling with is finding good mental saves equipment.

Those amulets of lloth are so damn rare. The minor globe is pretty average compared to the death shroud or the cloak of righteousness. The -12 mental torso piece is SUPER hard to get, and on top of that, quite rare. 

What other mental saving equipment is often sought out? I cannot think of much.

[Izzzzy]

4 hours ago, 'tarako said:

It wasn't meant to say skip saves all together, I'd like to clarify.  Just saying if you have questions choose between 15 saves across with 55 55 hit dam and 30 saves with 40 40 hit dam, I'm always going to choose more his dam from now on.

I don't agree with this.  You're only gonna last 10 min then be left with 0 consumables.  Mages stack some serious AC id rather see my  toons 45 hit/dam and -25 across the board.

 

Then if I'm fighting a serious 🧙 i can stack more saves accordingly.  Ivoker/cleric mental, Shaman mals, psi run, Necro you need everything (best tool kit in the game).

[Mmm Coffee]

6 hours ago, Ali_gmud said:

What other mental saving equipment is often sought out? I cannot think of much.

Potion of mental barrier carried by that fire mob (forget its name) behind the locked door in Crystalmir Caverns.  Kind of a pain in the ass to fight but it does give something like -25 mental. 

Other things off top of head that were frequently in during my last play period:  Bracelet of Lies, Unholy shadow of Velphane, Helm of spell turning, belt of white dragonhide, chieftain's warpaint, shroud of wizardry, minor globe, refracted horror skin (often hoarded away on someone's unused char), leggings of reflection, those poison sleeves from harbormaster, slimy boots, RP necklace....and I'm sure a few brand new pieces I haven't even seen. 

[Ulmusdorn]

7 hours ago, Ali_gmud said:

Most mage classes have mental spells, whether its minister, dispel magic, most of the PSI arsenal. And what I am struggling with is finding good mental saves equipment.

Those amulets of lloth are so damn rare. The minor globe is pretty average compared to the death shroud or the cloak of righteousness. The -12 mental torso piece is SUPER hard to get, and on top of that, quite rare. 

What other mental saving equipment is often sought out? I cannot think of much.

Double plated helm. 

Or if you really want to upspec - glyph of ancient darkness. Ring of Abyss? Ogre Chainskirt?

['tarako]

4 hours ago, Iznazti said:

I don't agree with this.  You're only gonna last 10 min then be left with 0 consumables.  Mages stack some serious AC id rather see my  toons 45 hit/dam and -25 across the board.

 

Then if I'm fighting a serious 🧙 i can stack more saves accordingly.  Ivoker/cleric mental, Shaman mals, psi run, Necro you need everything (best tool kit in the game).

Well, my dk had 50 mental, and was being slept first try, and dispelled at about a 40% success rate. So you can disagree to your heart's content, but I've got logs that show why my stance switched to what it is now.

[Ulmusdorn]

I think its best practice to just do what you think is best. But don't complain when you die thats the thing about choices, they have consequences.

['tarako]

11 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

I think its best practice to just do what you think is best. But don't complain when you die thats the thing about choices, they have consequences.

I definitely bring up what I feel are problems with how core mechanics work when I've got one imm telling me my saves are way too high in a prayer post where I'm showing my saves don't work. 50 mental on the low end, and my opponent had just under a 50% dispel success rate. Was incredibly frustrating.

['tarako]

Also I'm not trying to be combative or argumentative. Just sharing my experience because I followed this kind of advice, and it has never proven to be reliable in my experience. I'm just offering what had proven to be reliable for my characters.

[Ulmusdorn]

Dispel is a horrible spell to determine if 'saves work'. @Lloth or @Erelei have a good understanding of it and can probably tell it to you better but it isn't a 'normal' spell.

['tarako]

I was slept with 63 mental first shot as well. I went to prayer with my confusion, but ultimately came to the conclusion that's it's easier to deal with spell effects than it is to rely on saves.

[Izzzzy]

26 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Dispel is a horrible spell to determine if 'saves work'. @Lloth or @Erelei have a good understanding of it and can probably tell it to you better but it isn't a 'normal' spell.

I really wish this would be explained to the public, as it was explained to me at one point.  So confusing to understand how this works.  It's almost like the more affects you have the easier it is to be dispelled.  Now i know why i struggle to dispel melle with good saves.

[Lloth]

To my understanding, dispel works like this.

You cast dispel magic on Evil McBadPerson. You cast at level 50.

Evil McBadPerson has the following affect list at the time dispel magic was cast:

Armor - level 25 - 3 hours
Shield - Level 25 - 3 hours
Stone Skin - Level 25 - 3 hours
Sanctuary - Level 50 - 4 hours
Detect Invis - Level 10 - 12 hours
Protection - Level 35 - 7 hours
Fly - Level 15 - 3 hours

Evil McBadPerson has -65 combined saves against mental spells.

65 combined saves (very, very) roughly equates to a base 65% chance to save against the effect. HOWEVER. There are several variables at work here including luck, intelligence (for mental spells), level difference, resistances, rage and a few others.  For each 1 level the cast of Dispel Magic is above the level of the effect, take off 5% chance to save.

Dispel, unlike most spells, has several checks for each cast. A lot of people incorrectly assume that it only saves once, against the victim, and the spells removed are based on luck. This is not true. What actually happens is Dispel Magic first determines if the cast itself is saved against.  If it is saved against, the process ends here.

If it is not saved against, the spell then targets each affect on the victim's affect list that can be removed using a flat formula.  Here is where the level of the effects are used, for good or for bad (usually for bad).

So, to view that affected list in terms of chance to save...

Armor: 50 + ((25-50) * 5) = -75% chance to save (actually 5%, as you can never have less than 5% chance to save)
Shield: 50 + ((25-50) * 5) = -75% chance to save (actually 5%, as you can never have less than 5% chance to save)
Stone Skin: 50 + ((25-50) * 5) = -75% chance to save (actually 5%, as you can never have less than 5% chance to save)
Sanctuary: 50 + ((50-50) * 5) = 50% chance to save 
Detect Invis: 50 + ((10-50) * 5) = -150% chance to save (actually 5%, as you can never have less than 5% chance to save)
Protection: 50 + ((35-50) * 5) = -25% chance to save (actually 5%, as you can never have less than 5% chance to save)
Fly: 50 + ((15-50) * 5) = -125% chance to save (actually 5%, as you can never have less than 5% chance to save)

So, as you can see, the level of the effect is EXTREMELY important in determining the chance for that effect to save against Dispel Magic.

This may lead to some of you thinking it is a good idea to stack your saves to over 100 to compensate. Nope. Base save chance is calculated before level modifiers. Anything over 95% is a waste. And to my understanding, resistances, when calculated against spells, are effective 15 saves and are calculated with base save chance. This is done to ensure that it's never impossible for a spell to land. You always have at least 5% chance to save against a spell, and a spell always has a 5% chance to not be saved. All you can do is manage the middle ground. 

Consequentially, while it is not necessarily true that "The more spells you have, the easier it is to be dispelled", it is more likely that a spell you do have will be dispelled. More targets for dispel = more chances = more parity.

Again, this is simply my understanding of it. @Erelei or @Anume can definitely feel free to correct me.

 

Edit: Minor corrections
Kassieti

[Lloth]

Now, since sleep was brought up, keep in mind that Intelligence plays a pretty substantial role in how easy it is to land. Specifically, the difference in the victim's Intelligence and the caster's Intelligence. 25 intelligence casting sleep against 15 intelligence is a really, really big deal. I don't know specifically the math, but if I recall correctly from many years ago when it was explained to me, it is kinda similar to how spell level affects resistance chance, if not exactly the same. Assuming an exact comparison, an illithid casting sleep against a fire giant would effectively negate 30 of the FG's final saves calculation. So even if the FG somehow maxed out their save chance despite their mental vuln, they'd still only end up with a 65% chance to save against sleep (assuming the illithid casts sleep at level 50).

[Kyzarius]

Beat sleep with poison...it is a very binary pk equation.  Melee uses poison, the price is no dirt flee heal.

Do you have a specific class that is giving you a challenge? 

['tarako]

5 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

Beat sleep with poison...it is a very binary pk equation.  

This is my whole point. I have mostly given up relying on saves for combat. It's just much more reliable to counter the spell effects by using consumables. 

[Kassieti]

43 minutes ago, Lloth said:

Sanctuary: 65 - ((50-50) * 3) = 65% chance to save (actually 5%, as you can never have less than 5% chance to save)
...
Protection: 65 - ((50-35) * 3) = 20% chance to save (actually 5%, as you can never have less than 5% chance to save)

FTFY.

[Izzzzy]

13 minutes ago, Kassieti said:

FTFY.

For the First ?????

[Izzzzy]

fix that for you...got it.