Dispel Magic

[Izzzzy]

Okay so I really think this could be a real thing.  Surprise I only play mages and I'm saying this.  Dispel magic needs to go for Necromancers and Clerics (Now good aligned clerics might need to keep it?) as far as I am concerned.  My reasons are very simple.  THEY DONT NEED THEM.  There I said it.  Both these classes have a very good tool kit already.

Necromancer have a shit ton of beefy pets that can lag the shit out of you and bang your dead.

Clerics Are just superhuman tanks that can basically do ridiculous damage without it.  They have spell turning, so they just dress balls to the wall like a warrior and bang dispel magic and its like fighting Warrior without Sanc.

 

Open to the public for thoughts.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Yes.  

1.  Clerics are boring to play.  

2.  Necros are also boring to play.  

3.  I want the flu to go away.  

The warrior/cleric comparison is hyperbole.  Mainly because of what a hasted dual wielding giant warrior can accomplish.  Also, I've never found dispel magic to be that reliable.  

Also, rock/paper/scissors.  There are a couple of classes that will terrorize a necro all day.  Clerics require an ability to lock down and quick chase.  Otherwise they're going to run and heal, run and heal...

 

[Mali]

I feel like some spells, dispel being among them, are meant to unlock a greater damage per round (DPR) for classes without a high output. I would think that classes with a very high DPR would then be excluded from having dispel.

 

[EllaThePuppy]

1 hour ago, Mali said:

I feel like some spells, dispel being among them, are meant to unlock a greater damage per round (DPR) for classes without a high output. I would think that classes with a very high DPR would then be excluded from having dispel.

 

First of all, that’s a pretty sensible argument.

Second of all, that would likely include Clerics - the issue here is more one of race/class/cabal combos than general class ability. There’s also a longevity factor, where most clerics don’t make it as long as the cleric I assume we’re talking about, so they’re not as powerful.

Tbh I would have agreed with you about the necro too... but the log between Puerilaug and Zekanhan has me thinking maybe it’s otherwise. The issue here does not seem to be melee on mage but rather mage on mage.

[Izzzzy]

When I played Ziviz I have logs where I am wrecked and I mean wrecked by both Zergedelt and Ragnomar.  Absolutely destroyed and they were doing fine without the use of dispel magic.  Once a Dispel hit.  DEAD ZIVIZ.  Then I started doing some research on Necros and Clerics with the ones that ive played.  I went through logs.  Did some studies and realized like hey they really don't need this to compete.  Dispel magic is really just the cheese button as I call it.

[sarcon]

2 hours ago, Mali said:

I feel like some spells, dispel being among them, are meant to unlock a greater damage per round (DPR) for classes without a high output. I would think that classes with a very high DPR would then be excluded from having dispel.

 

I also think this is a great comment. This is very True. The reason for the dispel was exactly that. Right now Necromancers and Super beefy Clerics that hit like trucks should not have dispel magic. IF anything, Give them a new spell. Give them something that drops the AC and reduces the Hit Dam. That's all they really need. 

Give them a spell called Hinder to replace dispel. If landed, they will get -50 AC, -5 Hit, -5 Dam, -5 Dex. 

[Izzzzy]

I'm of the opinion that these classes don't need it, but they would need something similar.  Lets say Like an altered version of dispel magic where it does checks and wont Dispel Sanctuary,Flying,Protective shields.  Classes that can Lag should not have dispel magic.  Necromancer can use their pets to bash and trip and already have the use of wands and the wand of wind to trip, they don't need dispel on top of it.  Clerics have Minister, and other things.  Landing a dispel and lag locking someone is a cheese kill IMHO.  There really is no need and I can see the way these classes PK totally changing for the better forcing them to utilize other tools in their arsenal.

 

Speaking of burst, they should get something to give them a burst, lets say instead of taking Sanctuary completely away it takes away 50% of what Sanctuary would protect against.

 

[Imoutgoodbye]

2 hours ago, sarcon said:

I also think this is a great comment. This is very True. The reason for the dispel was exactly that. Right now Necromancers and Super beefy Clerics that hit like trucks should not have dispel magic. IF anything, Give them a new spell. Give them something that drops the AC and reduces the Hit Dam. That's all they really need. 

Give them a spell called Hinder to replace dispel. If landed, they will get -50 AC, -5 Hit, -5 Dam, -5 Dex. 

Calm does something similar.

[Dale]

I'd have to say that if you take dispel away from anyone, it should be invokes.  They can already destroy eq they dont need a dispel every .5 rounds.

[Lloth]

New change: Warriors have been given dispel magic. Invokers have been given dispel melee. Rangers can now summon a special Rubber Ducky pet when on water.

[Anume]

Time to roll up a ranger and get my rubber ducky.

[Venom]

Woohoo! Rubber Ducky! I want one too!

[EllaThePuppy]

5 minutes ago, Venom said:

Woohoo! Rubber Ducky! I want one too!

Did you just spam us all an unsolicited duck pic?

[Ulmusdorn]

On 1/5/2020 at 6:32 AM, Iznazti said:

Did some studies

Lol. Go on....

[Ulmusdorn]

Lets be honest. The better tact on this is: 

Hey maybe zombies are a bit beef? IMO it particularly looks like the melee path of zombies. Maybe we should tone these so they aren't freaking monsters?

Or we can remove dispel and the rest of the necro paths will suffer. Fun.

[EllaThePuppy]

Just now, Ulmusdorn said:

Lets be honest. The better tact on this is: 

Hey maybe zombies are a bit beef? IMO it particularly looks like the melee path of zombies. Maybe we should tone these so they aren't freaking monsters?

Or we can remove dispel and the rest of the necro paths will suffer. Fun.

How long have new necros been a thing? Has there ever been a necro of one of the other paths since the update that rocked and rolled?

[Ulmusdorn]

2 minutes ago, EllaThePuppy said:

How long have new necros been a thing? Has there ever been a necro of one of the other paths since the update that rocked and rolled?

The ones that come to mind have all been bone path.

Xtonial  - Syndicate - Destroyed nearly everyone
Puer + Zerg - Syndi + Trib - seems to be doing well.

 

EDIT: Forgive me if I am wrong, but this seems to be the case from my memory anyway. Its hard when you're not PKing aganist people to remember who's who. I remember things like Gordy etc easier.

[Izzzzy]

26 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Hey maybe zombies are a bit beef? IMO it particularly looks like the melee path of zombies. Maybe we should tone these so they aren't freaking monsters?

Its not just the bone path Strength Damned are just Beasts.  Necromancers do not need dispel magic.  I literally got one and a half rounded with my toon from a Negative  Necro.  They need something similar to keep melee from stacking hit dam, but dispel magic for a Necro is OP.  Don't care what anyone says.

[Izzzzy]

57 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Lol. Go on....

I can't go on without baiting my Character.  Maybe I can bring this to the Prayer forum.  Or I just bait my Character and surprise the shit outta everyone.

[Ulmusdorn]

Dispel magic has many applications. 

Its a combination of many things that make them lethal. 

If anything I would like to see skills like brittle and the bone explosion thing land more often (Shatter I just figured it out). Never really seen them land on a decently prepared foe.

Or make wind wands antievil. Problem solved.

[Izzzzy]

1 minute ago, Ulmusdorn said:

If anything I would like to see skills like brittle and the bone explosion thing land more often (Shatter I just figured it out). Never really seen them land on a decently prepared foe.

Or make wind wands antievil. Problem solved.

I agree 100%

 

[tassinvegeta]

1 hour ago, Iznazti said:

Its not just the bone path Strength Damned are just Beasts.  Necromancers do not need dispel magic.  I literally got one and a half rounded with my toon from a Negative  Necro.  They need something similar to keep melee from stacking hit dam, but dispel magic for a Necro is OP.  Don't care what anyone says.

May I correct by saying "dispel magic on a class, combined with far fewer ways to protect from dispel?"  Akin to the idea of AC being reduced and bash being more difficult to protect from. (Not sure if this last one is the case, just giving an example.)

@UlmusdornGordy still gives me a chuckle.

[Imoutgoodbye]

3 hours ago, Anume said:

Time to roll up a ranger and get my rubber ducky.

We'll keep our eyes peeled for an ogre ranger named Erknie.  

[Unknown Brother]

I wasn’t going to post anything about this. I’ve never had an issue with dispel magic. 
 

On the podcast you mention after the gear change you can’t just get a suit which is good against everything. You have to pick and choose your saves.

 

Goodie Cleric- Good clerics need dispel magic. Lest you just stack afflictive saves and tickle them until they run out of mana.

Shaman- I don’t even practice dispel magic for obvious reasons.

Evil Cleric- Evil clerics have a few abilities to bounce off different saves, but with minister and curse, I feel dispel magic is a whole other approach. Especially dispelling your own path effects. 

Battlemage- This is a class that is based around attrition, but dispel gives them another avenue to aim for, but doing so could very easily undo what work you’ve put in. 

Invoker- Without dispel, everyone would just stack affliction saves and steamroll them. You can dispel people of their afflictive saves are too high, this makes people spread the love. Removing dispel would break this class (IMO)

Necro- My opinion here is that neco have too many avenues available to kill you to be prepared in EVERY save you need against them. You need AC for the pets. You need mal saves for plague, poison, ghoul touch etc. You need afflictive saves because acid blast is brutal, even on a save. But mental saves as well because if they land a good dispel, your sanc drops, your flight drops and protective shield. That goes from winning a fight to being bashlocked and acid blasted and dead in two rounds. 
 

That being said, I think the issue is less about dispel magic, and more about the output a necro has. The pets dirt, disarm bash and trip with the bone path. That’s brutal, and all things that don’t have a negative side from dispelling your own spells AND the damage they do is brutal against anyone with one or two defences, you don’t need to curse a bashlocked, tripped opponent without sanc. You honesty don’t even need to acid blast if the dispel was on point.

 

edit: Of course that being said, you’re going to want to stack mental saves... so now you’re sacrificing mal saves and afflictive saves. They can play like a shaman at this point with WAY more  offence, or an invoker with rescue support and maybe even a mummy to jump in the way.  

[Dale]

Clerics can't fight invokers without dispel magic.  That's a fact.