Dispel Magic

[Izzzzy]

I literally just listened to the Podcast and basically said the exact same thing.

 

[Twinblades713]

Finally, UB comes in here to make some sense. 

[Imoutgoodbye]

I vote that dispel magic also does scratch damage like dirt kick.  That should solve everything.  It seems only fair given that melees can blind for a whole tick and get that little extra damage to go with it.  

There's also the issue with bards getting to sing. Wassupwiddat?!  They're just singing damage into existence!!!  I think my warrior swinging a violin over someone's head should hurt more.  

While we're at it, what about Rygo's illegitimate son, Bobby Hill?  I saw his shop opened in Val Miran and he's selling propane and propane accessories.  Now everyone is just RPing BBQ grills in Central Square while Azan holds meat judging contests.  

Something just ain't right, I tell you hwat.  

[Izzzzy]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

Clerics can't fight invokers without dispel magic.  That's a fact.

This is so far from the truth.  Low AC, Good save vs mental and afflictive, wear whips, summon tough mobs to avoid ice storms.  Destroy invoker.

Rp wise I think its nuts how clerics in general would want to fight anyways.  They should be more of a support class as far as I'm concerned, but that is a whole different topic.

[Magick]

12 hours ago, Ulmusdorn said:

The ones that come to mind have all been bone path.

Xtonial  - Syndicate - Destroyed nearly everyone
Puer + Zerg - Syndi + Trib - seems to be doing well.

EDIT: Forgive me if I am wrong, but this seems to be the case from my memory anyway. Its hard when you're not PKing aganist people to remember who's who. I remember things like Gordy etc easier.

Irant did alright.  Arguably the least played path: soul.

[ThatGuy]

57 minutes ago, Magick said:

Irant did alright.  Arguably the least played path: soul.

I think there's currently a soul path right now, I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure I fought one recently actually

[Trick]

Balance in a skill, ability, weapon, or attribute is usually a result of a few things. 

Are other aspects of the class not keeping up with the potency of dispel magic or is dispel magic too potent that it renders the other options ineffective?

 

I have fought just about every strong necromancer that has been rolled from the one's listed above and other's that haven't. Dispel magic is a tough thing to face because of how it is being utilized with the rework.

Dispel magic used to be used in order to land sleep. You'd hit dispel and your opponent would lose poison alongside sanctuary. Most people would throw sanctuary back up asap and get slept. It worked 90% of the time.

I really like where the necromancer class is right now. I have never wanted to play one, but I am highly considering it as of late. I do think the pets are a tad too beefy. As Akaahrit, arguably the most OP race/class at the time, albeit in a meh cabal(Warder would have been godly), I struggled to kill unsanced necromancers pets. I was usually getting tooled up pretty good by them.

So, based off my personal experiences, I'd say the pets are the issue, not the spell dispel magic.

That being said, if the class was left as it is, I'd be fine with that too. 

[Izzzzy]

13 minutes ago, Trick said:

So, based off my personal experiences, I'd say the pets are the issue, not the spell dispel magic.

That being said, if the class was left as it is, I'd be fine with that too.

My concern with this is that they get toned down to much where it a case of super nerf making them suck.  Take away the wand of wind and this changes things though.  People may be able to escape before they are lag locked on a dispel.  Also making the Necro time the dispel better.

 

[hotspring monkey]

2 minutes ago, Anume said:

What path was Irant?

Lucky
 

Irant is in awful condition. 0-15%
Drutugurk: [===|===|===|===]
<1714/1714hp 425/535m 203/487mv> D 3 2301 <0 GOLD> 
death
You execute 'Power Strike'!
Your power strike misses Irant.
Irant is in awful condition. 0-15%
Drutugurk: [===|===|===|===]
<1714/1714hp 415/535m 203/487mv> D 3 2300 <0 GOLD> 

You dodge Irant's attack.
You fire from a warforged shortbow and hit Irant with a few shots.
A warforged shortbow's arrows miss Irant.
Your life drain mauls Irant.
You feel a rush of endorphins, numbing your pain.
Irant is in awful condition. 0-15%
Drutugurk: [===|===|===|===]
<1714/1714hp 419/535m 203/487mv> D 3 2300 <0 GOLD> 

Irant has fled!
Irant flies down.

<1714/1714hp 419/535m 203/487mv> D 3 2300 <0 GOLD> 
d
bash Irant
Temple Entrance

[Exits: south up]
(White Aura) An Acolyte of the Dark Temple stands here in meditation.

<1714/1714hp 419/535m 202/487mv> D 3 2300 <0 GOLD> 
They aren't here.

Zombies:
(Invisible) (Charmed) (Translucent) (White Aura) A ghost levitates before its master.
(Invisible) (Charmed) (Translucent) (White Aura) An evil, red-eyed specter stares deeply into your soul.
(Invisible) (Charmed) (White Aura) A mummy shambles around with its master.
(Invisible) (Charmed) (White Aura) A stone golem stands here to do his master's bidding.
(Invisible) (Charmed) (White Aura) A flesh golem stands here to do his master's bidding.
(Invisible) (White Aura) Irant is here.

[Izzzzy]

Looks like Soul path.

[Izzzzy]

4 minutes ago, hotspring monkey said:

Lucky
 

Irant is in awful condition. 0-15%
Drutugurk: [===|===|===|===]
<1714/1714hp 425/535m 203/487mv> D 3 2301 <0 GOLD> 
death
You execute 'Power Strike'!
Your power strike misses Irant.
Irant is in awful condition. 0-15%
Drutugurk: [===|===|===|===]
<1714/1714hp 415/535m 203/487mv> D 3 2300 <0 GOLD> 

You dodge Irant's attack.
You fire from a warforged shortbow and hit Irant with a few shots.
A warforged shortbow's arrows miss Irant.
Your life drain mauls Irant.
You feel a rush of endorphins, numbing your pain.
Irant is in awful condition. 0-15%
Drutugurk: [===|===|===|===]
<1714/1714hp 419/535m 203/487mv> D 3 2300 <0 GOLD> 

Irant has fled!
Irant flies down.

<1714/1714hp 419/535m 203/487mv> D 3 2300 <0 GOLD> 
d
bash Irant
Temple Entrance

[Exits: south up]
(White Aura) An Acolyte of the Dark Temple stands here in meditation.

<1714/1714hp 419/535m 202/487mv> D 3 2300 <0 GOLD> 
They aren't here.

Zombies:
(Invisible) (Charmed) (Translucent) (White Aura) A ghost levitates before its master.
(Invisible) (Charmed) (Translucent) (White Aura) An evil, red-eyed specter stares deeply into your soul.
(Invisible) (Charmed) (White Aura) A mummy shambles around with its master.
(Invisible) (Charmed) (White Aura) A stone golem stands here to do his master's bidding.
(Invisible) (Charmed) (White Aura) A flesh golem stands here to do his master's bidding.
(Invisible) (White Aura) Irant is here.

Looks like you can't be dispelled there.  Just saying.

[hotspring monkey]

1 minute ago, Iznazti said:

can't be dispelled there.  Just saying.

Three ticks earlier:

 

Drutugurk: [===|===|===|===]
<1597/1714hp 498/535m 438/487mv> D 0 2311 <0 GOLD> 

Irant utters the words, 'eugszr waouq'.
You no longer see invisible objects.
You feel solid again.
You feel much younger and nimbler.
The white aura around your body fades.
-*-*-*-THEIR AURA FELL-*-*-*-*-
Your skin feels soft again.
You slowly float to the ground.
--------------- YER NOT FLYING -------------------
Irant has some big nasty wounds and scratches. 30-50%
Drutugurk: [===|===|===|===]
<1597/1714hp 498/535m 438/487mv> D 0 2311 <0 GOLD> 

 

[Izzzzy]

My bad @hotspring monkey

[Mmm Coffee]

Maybe Bone path (or all) necros need to cast at a lower mental level if the path selection is what's buffing their zombies so much.  Ulmy's suggestion of making the wind wand anti-evil is also good, especially when almost all the other gear from Cloud City is anti-evil.

[hotspring monkey]

Just lower the cap on the spell level on necros. Or something 🍻

[Dale]

15 hours ago, Iznazti said:

This is so far from the truth.  Low AC, Good save vs mental and afflictive, wear whips, summon tough mobs to avoid ice storms.  Destroy invoker.

Rp wise I think its nuts how clerics in general would want to fight anyways.  They should be more of a support class as far as I'm concerned, but that is a whole different topic.

This matchup is why I do not even play clerics anymore.  All they do is dispel magic, all the cleric can do is dispel magic.  Get in a few spells then repeat.  Spell turning/magic shield, if those are up then no damage are being done on either side.  It's a boring fight and to answer your question about why they fight, sometimes you have to, cabal warefare or whatever.

[Archbishop Monk]

Different people have different ideas of what is boring, so I'll just give mine.  Sudden death is extremely boring to me.  Extremely high damage fights are equally boring.  I don't get a thrill from watching high numbers or high damages.  My thrill comes from outthinking my opponent in my strategy and tactics.  Leading them into a trap when they think they are winning or sitting there waiting for them to come to me.

I somewhat tricked a thief into coming for my Storm Crusader Heureush on water.  How?  I knew they were Syndicate and so I started talking with 'says' about how I needed to work on my armor.  What happened?  They came and fought me on the water.  Now, I lost that fight, but I still had a ball fighting them there.  On the other hand, running in and watching someone's health vanish in a round because they didn't have sanc up in entirely boring to me.  Even if they had sanc up and I just outgeared them, its boring.

I give this as a basis because certain classes have abilities to overcome any strategy or tactics.  Necromancers are sitting in a really good place right now.  Why?  They have every offense available.  Melee offense(both mundane and magical damage) mal offense. afflicttive offense, mental offense.  Now, add to that they have some of the better defenses as well.  Mummy defense equal to ranger mammoth.  Vampiric touch and energy drain for recovery, along with flesh golem for a quick health burst. 

All of this I am fine with, to one degree or another, except for one thing, a necro can lag anyone but a gladiator or paladin consistently with a wand of wind.  Basically, there is no way to completely prepare for a necro except get entirely decked out -saves across the board, -ac enough to withstand zombies and enough hr/dr to get the job done quick enough and even then, they can still lag you which allows them to get away or go for a lucky dispel.  I am actually quite fine with their offensive capability.  It is the defensiveness on top of that which is overkill.

 

[Ulmusdorn]

14 hours ago, Magick said:

Irant did alright.  Arguably the least played path: soul.

I stand corrected.

[Celerity]

I see two issues with necros right now:

1. The offensive mobs are too hard to kill. It should be viable to focus kill an offensive pet like a skeleton. We don't want it so easy that the pets die in a couple of fireballs or splash damage, but on the other hand, we want minion management to be important for the necro. Right now, the offensive mobs have too much HP.

2. Soul tap is a bit broken. Right now, if you cast soul tap, and summon any pet, they will be strength damned. It should be that when you cast soul tap, all your current necro pets are strength damned. You need to use another soul to strength damn your new pets later.

What's the difference? Now, if you kill a pet, and soul tap is still an affect, the pet comes back strength damned. Since most necros are always under soul tap, all their pets are always strength damned, even if the lose and resummon. Instead, if you a kill a pet, the necro needs to choose either to leave the pet not strength damned or expend a soul to boost it back. The necro is faced with this choice every time they lose a pet. That was part of the intended balance to punish necros who lose their armies.

Minion management should be more important for necros than it is now.

I thoroughly agree that the problem isn't dispel magic. It is burst pet output from necros. I don't mind the burst damage, but the counter (separating/killing the army) should be much more viable than now.

I'm not too concerned about necro defense. The mummy actually has a steep cost (losing the best pet, the ghoul). The mummy is only useful for those classes that do very heavy melee damage. The ghoul is always useful.

Necros do have a great toolset. All classes should in this game. I don't believe in hard bane classes in a 1vs1 environment.

edit: Wand of hurricane has no place in the game. IYou shouldn't be enabling lag with a consumable. That is crazy for balance. Just get rid of it. Warders are bad enough.

[sarcon]

I originally was on that gimp necros train but I've been seeing necros get killed pretty easily Including puriligue(sp). I was even having some issues with my Druids a bit then when I made a few adjustments I was fine. So now I'm a little on the fence. I think the only thing we need to do is make sure they can't get any crazy spell level. They should be capped on the spell level and everything should be fine.

I've only seen a handful of successful necros recently so until I see a bunch eating up the playing base I'm 50/50. I like what they did with the fact that they can't use the wand of winds... That is a smart move and I think the Imms know what they are doing. There are two necro's right now kicking ass, and all the other ones have been pretty trash. So, coming from someone who has even posted on the prayer from about necros, I'm in the middle now on my verdict. Maybe I will roll one up and see what all the hype is about, but recently I've been seeing them fold pretty easily so now I'm not convinced they are too OP. 

[Celerity]

13 hours ago, Trick said:

Dispel magic used to be used in order to land sleep. You'd hit dispel and your opponent would lose poison alongside sanctuary. Most people would throw sanctuary back up asap and get slept. It worked 90% of the time.

I don't think this is correct. Dispel has always been about letting your three travens kill the opponent through immense lag and burst damage. Sleep wasn't used much, even with the most famous necros, re: kurvikhel.

Old necros with dispel were actually stronger than the current ones because their pets were much stronger. It was just that few old necros could be bothered to gather and maintain the army for long, so you didn't see them played often, especially not well.

[Trick]

I guess I should have included the “in my experience” disclaimer.

Guess you experienced something different.

[Archbishop Monk]

 

15 hours ago, Celerity said:

Necros do have a great toolset. All classes should in this game. I don't believe in hard bane classes in a 1vs1 environment.

 

I agree with this statement right here, pure and simple.  Bane classes is pretty boring to me where  am fine with balancing based on abilities such as selectables.  There is a difference though between a specialist and a versatile build.  Take shaman for example.  They are vicious definitely, but get enough -mals and you do not worry much about them.  Why?  Because they have to work VERY hard to lower those saves just to be able to land something and by that time you can just run away and recover.  Sure, you may not kill them quickly or even at all, but you can survive them.

[Nekky]

I agree with a number of Celerity's points.

Some opinions of mine:

1. The mummy, which is primarily designed to be a "tank" pet, does too much heavy melee damage. If it's a tank pet, with huge HP and the ability to jump in front of the necro, it should not also be doing high-caps damage in melee. If the necro wants another high damage pet, they can select the ghoul.
2. The high-output melee pets have very high base hp. These pets should not be as hardy, and the necro should have to worry about defending these pets from people trying to tactically kill them. I am not saying they should die in a few hits (especially the ghoul), but high-output melee pets used by other classes (such as ranger leopards and the green dragon with its enlarged bash) have relatively low HP and need to be managed - in fact, I believe the green dragon's HP was specifically reduced quite recently due to its huge bashes. 

I have fought a lot of necromancers in the last couple of months, and in 95% of fights the necro has either focused totally on trying to use dispel magic or just cast acid blast for additional damage and relied on burst damage from pets. Necromancers have a good variety of attrition spells such as curse, poison, plague and ghoul touch which allow them to win drawn out fights. In my experience, however, these spells are almost never used because burst damage is much easier.

[aaa]

I'm a bit out of the loop. Is there an unstoppable necro roaming around currently?