Journals & RP points

[Rensvert]

1 hour ago, Lloth said:

Making a lot of assumptions @Rensvert

 

We do not make journals public unless specifically asked to by the player who wrote it. Journals ARE private. Basically like diaries.

What's funny here @Lloth is you know exactly what I am talking about, and know full well that an immortal leaked my journal, at no point did I give permission for that, but it still happened. So please dont say that I am making an assumption when I am literally just saying exactly what has happened to me. 

Furthermore I've spoken with other players about it who have said similar, while I dont have proof of that happening to them. I certainly have proof of it happening to me, which I happily gave you. So maybe fact check yourself before assuming I made an assumption.

[Ulmusdorn]

I vote we go away with them. 
 

it’s not worth whatever this is 

[Seravin]

A discussion about journals means they’re not worth having? Harden up, princess. Sometimes we gotta have tough talks. 
 

As for public vs private vs note: I think there are things that are not noteworthy that are journal worthy. As long as there is an option to post them whichever way you want, I think it would be okay. 
 

But if imms can and will leak them to other players, what’s it matter anyway. 

[Dale]

Whats the point in this topic?  Seriously?  Write your journals, accept what you get when you get it.  

To the IMMS:  Don't take away my journals, I'm happy with whatever I get I just want to keep getting people to read my creative stuff for free.

[Rensvert]

I just think their should be a sort of guideline for them. Sure one option is to just move them completely, it's a shitty option considering basically every immortal and player but @Ulmusdorn says that they are a net benefit to overall RP. 

Another option is to just admit the system has flaws and can/should be looked at. 

[Seravin]

Originally it was how you maximize your rp per journal. To which I would say write however you feel most comfortable or have the most fun doing. Being interested in a topic will yield the most interesting results. 
 

If you’re trying to farm rp, create an rp that you can continually add to. Create and tell a story. Have an end goal and document all the steps. 
 

If you want to write high rp journals, follow Kassieti’s guidelines. Content/length/etc. 

[myrek]

Originally, it was to not focus on rp/journal if that's not your style. It was to focus on rp/effort and to not avoid journaling because Killian's style isn't your style.

[Mmm Coffee]

44 minutes ago, Rensvert said:

I just think their should be a sort of guideline for them. Sure one option is to just move them completely, it's a shitty option considering basically every immortal and player but @Ulmusdorn says that they are a net benefit to overall RP. 

Another option is to just admit the system has flaws and can/should be looked at. 

You are arguing, literally, over the difference of a few RP points per journal.  Ella is talented writer, gets 12-15 points for journal.  Rensvert puts effort in and gets 8-12 points for same length.  Who cares?  Sure if you both wrote dozens of journals it would add up but let's be real about what we're arguing here.

It's also kind of ironic given this thread from 9 years ago.  Did you suddenly stop being interested in writing?  People need to realize when they're no longer arguing and just whining.

 

[Rensvert]

10 minutes ago, Mmm Coffee said:

You are arguing, literally, over the difference of a few RP points per journal.  Ella is talented writer, gets 12-15 points for journal.  Rensvert puts effort in and gets 8-12 points for same length.  Who cares?  Sure if you both wrote dozens of journals it would add up but let's be real about what we're arguing here.

It's also kind of ironic given this thread from 9 years ago.  Did you suddenly stop being interested in writing?  People need to realize when they're no longer arguing and just whining.

 

I am not sure at all what you are even saying to be honest with you? like did you read what I have said in this thread at all? Because it really looks like you did not, I have said that Immortals release journals to other players at their choosing, Which has happened, and then call Lloth out for telling me I was wrong. Then  I told Ulm that hey your system has flaws and now you think I hate writing? Or that I am arguing over the amount of RP points you get? Like I don't think you even read what I wrote....

[Seravin]

@Mmm Coffee nobody is arguing or whining about the number of rp they’re getting. People are discussing how they can achieve the same results when they’re not as skilled a writer as Ella. 

[Kassieti]

20 minutes ago, Rensvert said:

... I have said that Immortals release journals to other players at their choosing, Which has happened, and then call Lloth out for telling me I was wrong.

As Lloth was saying, journals should not be forwarded unless specified by the player.  I do not know the details surrounding your event, so I shall assume it's true.  That it happened in the past does not mean it's policy to continually do so.  If you suspect your journal was released without your permission, you should make a complaint through the appropriate channels with as much proof as you can muster.

[EllaThePuppy]

27 minutes ago, Seravin said:

@Mmm Coffee nobody is arguing or whining about the number of rp they’re getting. People are discussing how they can achieve the same results when they’re not as skilled a writer as Ella. 

The answer is creativity. You don't have to be a skilled writer to be creative.

Let's look at tropes. If you are a bad writer, don't choose an overdone trope that is hard to make interesting for your RP angle. For example:

I am a decent writer. I can make "I killed my parents" more interesting, with some creativity and nuance. Killian's entire RP was "I killed my mom."

If you're a bad writer, you're never going to get far enough past "I killed my mom" to make your character engaging. It's not going to be engaging for you, it's not going to be engaging for the IMMs, it's not going to be engaging for other players... and as a result, you A. Aren't going to want to write as much, B. Aren't going to get rewarded as much when you do, and C. Aren't going to enjoy the character as much overall (because you feel like you're not being rewarded AND you don't like playing it).

So the answer to your question is that if you're a bad writer, you have three options:

1) Develop some creative roleplay that is unique enough to be interesting WITHOUT needing to add all the nuance and flow that a good writer could add.

2) Get better at writing. This is not impossible. There are lots of people here that seem to have the attitude of "I'm a bad writer and therefore I will always be a bad writer." Plenty of people have offered to help via constructive feedback and writing critiques, there are lots of online resources available to help with your writing, etc.

3) Accept that you aren't going to get the same results out of your journals/notes, and approach earning rewards through other angles. Plenty of people are better at reactionary RP than they are at writing. I have gotten plenty of RP rewards for RPing with MYSELF and a mob. You don't NEED other players for this option. And doing so can also give you the basis for a note or a plot or a journal to help develop your writing and earn more rewards.

[Rensvert]

32 minutes ago, Kassieti said:

As Lloth was saying, journals should not be forwarded unless specified by the player.  I do not know the details surrounding your event, so I shall assume it's true.  That it happened in the past does not mean it's policy to continually do so.  If you suspect your journal was released without your permission, you should make a complaint through the appropriate channels with as much proof as you can 

I mean you are welcome to ask Lloth for the info if you are really curious. And you say "past" like this happened years ago, it was in November of last year. So not like it was a different staff than what we have now. And those "channels" as you put it, basically means you are trying to convince the staff that one of their own fucked up, which is NOT an easy road to go. 

Also it really doesnt help to make a complaint to the staff since the damage to your character would already be done. It's not like you can magically erase it from the game. Which is why we need rules around it, saying it shouldn't happen is great, but the fact remains that it has happened and shouldn't but likely will happen again.  

So instead of having the situation as it currently sits, where it might happen but shouldn't, maybe we should look into a way to improve the system. Or at the very least admit the system is flawed and should be used knowing the risks involved. 

[Seravin]

@EllaThePuppy I agree. I made a few suggestions on the first page of similar things I’ve done with the example of building a house. Being active and interested in your own rp will help a lot to build their whole persona in your mind and on paper. I don’t like writing journals for journals sake. I do like writing stories. 
 

And yes, accepting you’ll maybe get less points. But I’ve had rough ideas that I’ve expanded and built on as I wrote more, and my later journals would get increasing rewards. It’s okay to start small. Give yourself options. Be fluid. 

[Kassieti]

Now you're arguing to argue.

It can be four years ago or it can be yesterday.  When it happened doesn't matter.  What matters is the reporting of the incident so that it won't happen again in the future.  Yes, what is done is done and there's no erasing it, but this doesn't mean that the issue wasn't looked into.

To say that it "shouldn't but likely will happen again" is a bit melodramatic and makes it sound like we're just waiting for another incident.  Could it happen again?  Sure, though it's not a guaranteed thing.  Your incident is the only one I've heard since journals were implemented.  The track record for them being private is quite good in much the same way that flying is the safest way to travel.

If someone is leaking journals, of course it will be "one of our own".  No player has access to anyone else's journals to do it.  I don't see how that would be difficult to be convincing of that if you've got some measure of proof.  Immortals are people too and people can be wrong.

An imm on their mort could let something slip that you had in your journal or they could intentionally send it to someone else.  The only way to ensure leaks will not happen again is to invent a system of checks and balances such as needing a second immortal to confirm, but this takes care of only the intentional sendings.  We could remove journals entirely as this would take care of the accidents, too.  I don't see either of these things happening, however.

Do you want admission that the system isn't foolproof?  Of course it isn't.  To assume otherwise is unfathomable.  That being said, reporting the issue is the first step of the fixing of the system.

If reporting via prayer is a direction you do not wish to go, I doubt Lloth, Anume or any of the senior staff would be upset if you came to them directly.  If one of them were the offender, they would say it outright.  If it wasn't them, they will handle it and are under no obligation to give you a follow up report.

Say what you must, but I feel that all that can be said on this topic has been.

[Rensvert]

There is a lot to break down here but lets give it a try shall we?, 

1 hour ago, Kassieti said:

Now you're arguing to argue.

If bringing up my opinion on the matter is arguing just to argue so be it, I can't really stop you or anyone else from feeling that way. It certainly was not the intent however.

1 hour ago, Kassieti said:

It can be four years ago or it can be yesterday.  When it happened doesn't matter.  What matters is the reporting of the incident so that it won't happen again in the future.  Yes, what is done is done and there's no erasing it, but this doesn't mean that the issue wasn't looked into.

To say that it "shouldn't but likely will happen again" is a bit melodramatic and makes it sound like we're just waiting for another incident.  Could it happen again?  Sure, though it's not a guaranteed thing.  Your incident is the only one I've heard since journals were implemented.  The track record for them being private is quite good in much the same way that flying is the safest way to travel.

I agree 100% That when it happened doesn't matter, but I pointed out that you made it sound like it happened long ago when that is simply not the case. Sure does that mean it fundamentally altered my character and I was just in a shit spot yup, nothing can be done about that. BUT it did put me in a awful position, knowing how easy it is for characters to never get any traction at all and knowing how in this game peoples first impression of your character are likely to stick for the life of the character, at least one of mine. I could have either thrown a fit about it knowing that meant the likely death of the character or just roll with the bullshit. Not a great spot for players to be in. 

As for being melodramatic I mean yeah I am totally waiting for it to happen again, if not to me than to someone else. I have literally zero reason to assume it wont happen again, and sure its possible the other players I mentioned it to were lying about it but I trust them at least as much as I trust the Immortals. I mean I've also brought up a complaint against another player before and suddenly that player is arguing about it with me. Like information that is given to the staff does not "stay" hidden. It is widely passed around from the staff to their friends to then other friends and so forth. Its the nature of having a small community. 

And yeah the track record is great of course it is, but Airlines don't go around saying "THE PLANE CANNOT CRASH!!" in the same way, that lloth claimed I was just making an assumption. It happened, dont make it seem like it didnt.

1 hour ago, Kassieti said:

If someone is leaking journals, of course it will be "one of our own".  No player has access to anyone else's journals to do it.  I don't see how that would be difficult to be convincing of that if you've got some measure of proof.  Immortals are people too and people can be wrong.

An imm on their mort could let something slip that you had in your journal or they could intentionally send it to someone else.  The only way to ensure leaks will not happen again is to invent a system of checks and balances such as needing a second immortal to confirm, but this takes care of only the intentional sendings.  We could remove journals entirely as this would take care of the accidents, too.  I don't see either of these things happening, however.

 Yeah at least we can agree on this part, I don't think the system will change regardless, but the staff has given off at least to me a pretty strong "Staff vs Players" mind set. Bringing complaints about the staff directly to the staff isn't a fool proof plan, and is basically the definition of a conflict of interest. Does make it very difficult to assume anything will happen. I've said it before if you have a problem with the game itself or another player the staff is pretty good about dealing with that, the staff has a WAY worse track record of dealing with themselves, lets not forget this is the same game where Immortals have been caught blatantly cheating and denied it. 

 

1 hour ago, Kassieti said:

Do you want admission that the system isn't foolproof?  Of course it isn't.  To assume otherwise is unfathomable.  That being said, reporting the issue is the first step of the fixing of the system.

If reporting via prayer is a direction you do not wish to go, I doubt Lloth, Anume or any of the senior staff would be upset if you came to them directly.  If one of them were the offender, they would say it outright.  If it wasn't them, they will handle it and are under no obligation to give you a follow up report.

Right the administration is not infallible, I agree 100% on this. As for reporting it directly to someone well I did that, and no of course they do not have to tell me shit about it, BUT if that is the way the staff wants to go with it, then I have no reason to believe anything was ever done or even looked into. Something as simple as "Hey sorry this happen, the offending party has been talked with and it won't happen again." Is plenty, it is the staffs choice to not pass along anything and much like if I called to say my bank and go "hey this is a bad charge I didnt do this" and I got no follow up information from that conversation I sure as hell am not assuming it was taken care of and will continue to press the matter. 

The staff is more than willing to not tell me anything, but without telling me anything I have zero reason to assume anything ever happened with it, and will continue to warn people of the dangers and risks of using journals. It messed up my character and I don't want it to happen to someone else.  

Edit: adding to this a character like Killian having one of his journals leaked would have destroyed the character. Saying we want journals like this without dealing or warning of the possibilities that it might be leaked, just means it's likely to mess a character who otherwise wouldve had a cool story and journals to write. 

[Aeva]

Good grief 😆

[Anume]

If you do not report it, it is not likely to change. I was confused about who posted what there for a moment, so sorry about that if you read the unedited reply. Slip ups happen and the imm in question would likely have apologized and felt guilty about it had you brought it up openly. (If you had, I missed it or simply don't remember.) If you do not get a reply to a prayer post, in general, bump it. We get a couple of dozen posts that require some reply some days. Things do get missed.

I also think it's extremely uncool to play this past imms have cheated card. None of these past imms is a current staff memeber. Would be the same as saying a past player who does not play any more cheated, thus Rens's chars must be cheaters, right? I'm asking you politely to stop with that kind of unfair bs.  Thanks.

[Rensvert]

41 minutes ago, Anume said:

I am not sure what you mean with leaking journals, of course Imms will react to them as they are gods in game so it is not uncommon they gain a glance into your soul or know about your past. I am not sure if you meant Anume's rp as the Syndi cabal imm stoking up the fire of conflict, I never told any mortal any details of your journals, it is in Anume's nature to cause conflict leading (hopefully) to death or at least in-fighting.

I also think it's extremely uncool to play this past imms have cheated card. None of these past imms is a current staff memeber. Would be the same as saying a past player who does not play any more cheated, thus Ella's chars must be cheaters, right? I'm asking you politely to stop with that kind of unfair bs.  Thanks.

I am not exactly sure what you are getting at with the journal stuff. The character in question literally never interacted with Anume in game, ever. And no it is for sure one thing if an Immortal reads a journal and Rp's with it, it is another thing completely to give said information to a herald who then sends a note to everyone detailing the journal. I am fine with the first type of interaction with my journals the second type though, not so much. If however you think the second type is perfectly fine, then that for sure is something that SHOULD be mentioned to everyone. Again take Killian as an example you give a herald basically any of those journals to send to the player base and the character changes, fundamentally.

As for the cheating card, I did not intend to imply that the current immortals were cheating if that's how it came across, more that it is a very difficult from a player perspective to go to the immortals about an immortal breaking their own rules. And that it is a conflict of interest. It is what it is and there isnt a real way to fix that, outside of some ethics committee. But I only attempted to say that the staff over the years does not have a great track record with self moderation and secret keeping. And it is extremely difficult from a player perspective to do anything about that. Not in anyway was I implying the current staff are cheaters.

[Trick]

Why’s everything gotta be such a big deal?? Why can’t we just play the damn game and enjoy it.. these are journals in a game, not your personal diaries...
 

This is ridiculous... 

[Seravin]

Because if I know there’s a chance they might be revealed I’m not gonna put anything important or secret in them anymore. Rather not risk my plans coming to light before I’m ready. Operating under the assumption it’s for imms only when it’s not is no good in my book. 

[Rensvert]

26 minutes ago, Seravin said:

Because if I know there’s a chance they might be revealed I’m not gonna put anything important or secret in them anymore. Rather not risk my plans coming to light before I’m ready. Operating under the assumption it’s for imms only when it’s not is no good in my book. 

This is exactly how everyone should play their journals. Dont write it unless you are fine with it becoming common knowledge.

[Anume]

No journals will be forwarded unless we are explicitely asked to do so (even then it may be difficult to do this without ooc).

Any action, no matter if in a journal, a note or something else, will have rp consequences. (Ic actions will have ic consequences.)

This is not the same as ooc forwarding of a journal.

Examples: if you blow up a bridge in a journal (and have enough rp leading up to this for us to actually let you succeed blowing it up), the bridge will be blown up and gone. If you state in the journal that you do this in the middle of the day openly, you'll be seen and a witness will tell others about it (mob). If you do it in the middle of the night, cloaked, then the same witness would report "I saw a cloaked giant/human/... blowing up the bride." 

We had many of these journals in the past which led to the development of plots and char development.

Some journals are very drastic and require a response (e.g. a char borderline breaking align or ethos). If it is just borderline and there is an argument for their aligns/ethos sake in the deed, the consequence will most likely be ic. (E.g. a report to Tribunal from Guard Captain xxx that tribunalx was seen breaking the law intentionally), this will also be dealt with ic then. If it is beyond the align/ethos it will have more dire consequences, e.g. outcast, loss of align or ethos.

Just like rp logs or notes, journal are rp tools to make things happen.  As with anything your char does, ic actions will have ic consequences.

[Anume]

Oh, and the above is nothing new but the way we have always dealt with journals.

[Erelei]

If you don’t want your journals to be used to enhance the role play of your character and those around you, don’t write a journal. 
 

it’s that simple. IMMs should be considered omniscient, and while an immortal’s character may not have interacted with you, they can (and likely will) use your journals to immerse your character and your characters friends and enemies into your world.