Faerie thieves

[Archbishop Monk]

I seriously wonder why this is even a selectable class.  You can't be faerie fired, but on the low end of health at level 50 you will have about 450 health base.  Seriously?  On a melee class?  Take stout perk and trains and you MAY be able to get it up to 600-650.  Now, the +2 to trap level racial isn't going to make up for being the smallest size possible, tiny, and having the lowest health of all races along with the weakest strength.  Size affects ability to be lagged, blackjack, and some spells.  You can't even blackjack someone too many sizes larger than you.  I know some races are weaker in general in some classes, but this just seems entirely unplayable, even if you just want to annoy people because your con affects mals.  People don't need to faerie fire you, they just need to poison you.

I can remember a few good gnome thieves even back when they had a bash vuln.  Goomf or the like.  I cannot for the life of me remember a single faerie thief who even made it to 50.  I'm tempted to roll one just to be silly, but honestly I don't get why this is even an option if none are rolling one in a decade.

[Seravin]

Makes sense rp wise. Trickster sprite type thing. Pk wouldn’t ever go well for you though. There’s a lot of lesser played and less powerful combos in the game. I would say this is probably the worst of the lot though. 

[Archbishop Monk]

32 minutes ago, Seravin said:

Makes sense rp wise. Trickster sprite type thing. Pk wouldn’t ever go well for you though. There’s a lot of lesser played and less powerful combos in the game. I would say this is probably the worst of the lot though. 

Exactly my point.  I do not remember one single faerie thief ever at 50.  Not one.  In all the years I played which is nearly 20 now, I don't remember one.  If none is playing one not even for RP, what is the point of keeping it?

[Twinblades713]

Tidder Tadder, Master of Milk! Though it also proves the point being it was an RP character that only stole... milk. Lol

[Archbishop Monk]

I don't even remember that one.....

[Magick]

Faerie invokers get about 450, thieves about 500.  Trains and quests and perk can get that to 700.  Suplement in some HP gear and 800 isn't out of the question.  Still, no.  You're probably not going to be a PK powerhouse, no.  Not all classes need to be, though.  Does that mean they don't need love? 

I know @Pali had one some years back.  I don't recall too much about the character other than I went to Winter once with him and we spoke briefly on occasion.

[Pali]

Can't say I recall ever doing a faerie thief - had a few fae invokers that I loved and a fae bmg that I hated because I just can't make bmgs work for me, but thief was a class that also never clicked for me (and I was a bit too much of a powergamer back in the day to make a combo that I knew in advance I'd suck with). The mages had natural hps in the mid-upper 400s, though I could get them into the 600s with trains and get over 1k with eq if I focused on maxing hp (or was just super decked).  I suspect a fae thief would have a natural hp around 500, maybe slightly above, due to the class's hp gain being better than a mage's, but I can't say I'm speaking from experience.

[Magick]

It's been many years and I don't recall the character name, but I swear that was you and you were always wandering off on him.  Galadran timeframe, I think.

Even if it wasn't, I remember there was one.

 

[Archbishop Monk]

Part of my point wasn't about whether or not they 'could be' done or have some sort of RP.  I mentioned their weaknesses not for the sake of powergaming or being a PK powerhouse alone.  Take a look at how hard it is for any of us to remember one single faerie theif.  It seems only @Twinblades713 remembers one.  I feel somewhat similar about gnome rangers but at least they have racial benefits that could matter to their experience.  Just because you don't pk, doesn't mean your skills don't need to work.  Now I am really tempted to roll one.

[Mmm Coffee]

The only thing that turns me  off about faerie theives is how size affects blackjack.  I really don't think this should be the case.  A faerie who knows how to knock things out should have just as much chance as any other thief.  They can literally fly right up to a giant's head and smash them heh.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Even the trickster part seems slightly nullified given how traps work.  You can't leave them laying around everywhere.  

[Archbishop Monk]

Although, if faerie thieves could lay more traps than normal thieves it might actually prove interesting.  Picture being able to lay three traps rather than just two.  With the +trap level it may actually be some fun.  Still, you aren't going to handle Pve well.  I'd also doubt you'd ever kill anyone of equal skill.  But, at least you could pull off actually annoying someone.  As it is now, faerie thieves are one enlarge spell away from being almost entirely ignored.  You can do almost everything a faerie thief can do and then some with a faerie bard.  The only thing you can't do really is hide.

The differences between faerie bards and thieves is a LOT.  Faerie thieves can hide, dispel you and damage you with powerful traps while not in the room with you.  A faerie bard can debuff you, heal themselves, have some bash and dirt resistance and damage you with songs as well as their vogues that give added benefits.  The similarities?

1. Both can put you to sleep, although the faerie thief is pretty much barred from this on anything bigger than a human.

2. Both can steal, and although the thief can pry, refer to point number one about putting people to sleep.

3. Both are going to have low health and tiny size, but the bard has benefits to protect from being bashlocked built into the class

4. Both have melee potential.  The bard wins on this for a better selection of weapons though and class buffs.

 

Just some food for thought.  I have seen gnome rangers because they get a benefit in fletching.  Next on my list is gnome warrior.  Another thing I have almost never seen.

 

[Trick]

Anti-magic. Blackjack. Backstab. Chestbuster/Brambus Needler. Murder.

That's the combo for a thief to follow in 90% of their fights. You can only have two traps set at a time. All traps(booby, magic, mechanisms) operate off of the same timer in your affects list. When a trap is tripped, it is a one time cast of that spell that is negated by saves. Why would I, as a thief, waste not only 1 of my 2 traps and impact my timer for a trap that won't land?

Enfeebler. Casts enfeeble. It takes a shaman several casts of this spell for it to land against a player, especially in today's saves. Why would I put this down? Fireesed. Trapping an item that will be tripped when an item is used. I've put this on glimmering staves, but again, its a novelty strategy that won't impact  fight. Snares/runes. Why? Why would I put down a lower damage spell if I can throw down chestbuster? Amnesia Charm. Again, never lands. Eyedusts. Again, never lands.

These spells take multiple casts by classes that have access to +spellvl equipment. How is a thief supposed to best utilize enfeebler when a shaman has to work at enfeeble? And remember, the enemy has to WALK INTO IT. I can't "chase" with traps the same you can with a spell. I have to be FAR more strategic in my strategy, which I personally really enjoy.

 

The current traps are outdated and ineffective except for the combo I said at the top. 

[EllaThePuppy]

The easy fix to this particular problem would be to give faeries a bonus to blackjack.

The not-so-easy fix to the problem is thieves in general have a limited kit (per @Trick) above. They also are almost universally hated and don't contribute meaningfully, in most cases, to community growth-oriented gameplay. Thieves were, once upon a time, an equalizer (just like ninjas). Now they're obsolete and have been left in the dust. And all that remains is a vestige that can be used to annoy people with, but not really have any substantial impact, IMHO.

[Pali]

9 hours ago, Magick said:

Galadran timeframe, I think.

I'm as certain as I can be that I didn't have a fae thief back in 1.0 - my only 1.0 pinns were Pali, Galadran, Sartoth, and Asniar.  I don't think I even tried a thief in 1.0 - if I wanted to be sneaky I had Galadran, and he always beat up thieves he encountered so I didn't think very highly of the class's potential then.

[Aidon]

On 3/5/2020 at 8:30 AM, Mmm Coffee said:

The only thing that turns me  off about faerie theives is how size affects blackjack.  I really don't think this should be the case.  A faerie who knows how to knock things out should have just as much chance as any other thief.  They can literally fly right up to a giant's head and smash them heh.

I played the aforementioned Tidder faerie thief and I can tell you 100% the blackjack size impact is very extreme. Even full trained, I had it felt like a 1/4 chance of landing a blackjack on most people, unless I could enlarge myself, which is really challenging because you want to stay hidden. If you fail a blackjack more than 50% of the time its very hard to be a viable thief. I went out and got + blackjack proficiency items but still couldn't be very effective. Never found a reliable way to enlarge myself long enough to time it right for blackjacking. 

[Magick]

16 hours ago, Aidon said:

Tidder faerie

I keep reading this as "Tinder faerie".

/sigh

[EllaThePuppy]

29 minutes ago, Magick said:

I keep reading this as "Tinder faerie".

/sigh

Swipe left.