Aelythuen Elf Psi Trib vs Oiydi H-Elf BMG Watcher

[Anonymous]

Being able to do it endlessly is equally as broken as Psi's IMO.  It's way too easy to setup triggers that follow and charge or charge on sight.  Not saying that everyone does this, but I know it has been done and it's the single most devastating skill for triggers.  I don't think putting a 0-tick timer on mino charge would in any way nerf minos.  They'd still get to charge 3x more than anyone else, are large size and have no vuln.  And you can still charge counter classes, you just have to use ONE of your other skills first.  I know this is hard for mino players but yes, you do have other skills 

Aely

 

[Zhurong]

3 hours ago, Anonymous said:

Being able to do it endlessly is equally as broken as Psi's IMO.  It's way too easy to setup triggers that follow and charge or charge on sight.  Not saying that everyone does this, but I know it has been done and it's the single most devastating skill for triggers.  I don't think putting a 0-tick timer on mino charge would in any way nerf minos.  They'd still get to charge 3x more than anyone else, are large size and have no vuln.  And you can still charge counter classes, you just have to use ONE of your other skills first.  I know this is hard for mino players but yes, you do have other skills 

Aely

 

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh my ass off reading this. I'm the only one who has ever been accused of trigger charging and to this day, the accusation is still bullshit.

[Anonymous]

Oh trust me, it's not just you nor was that targeted at you.  It's not very difficult to read a log and figure out a trigger is being used.

Aely

 

[Anonymous]

I don't find minotaur charge OP for the lag or what it does for minotaur berserkers.  What I do find OP about it is that it can be spammed in a room and there is no way to walk in on a minotaur spamming charge and get the first hit unless they lag.  Now, if there was a small delay on activating the skill, it would mean they would literally have to be faster than their opponent and use it at the right time.  This also means they would suffer, but only slightly, against an autosneaking class or cabal.  It should be an offensive skill, not a defensive one.  This will make it such.

-Cirilha

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

7 hours ago, Anonymous said:

Being able to do it endlessly is equally as broken as Psi's IMO.  It's way too easy to setup triggers that follow and charge or charge on sight.  Not saying that everyone does this, but I know it has been done and it's the single most devastating skill for triggers.  I don't think putting a 0-tick timer on mino charge would in any way nerf minos.  They'd still get to charge 3x more than anyone else, are large size and have no vuln.  And you can still charge counter classes, you just have to use ONE of your other skills first.  I know this is hard for mino players but yes, you do have other skills 

Aely

 

The 0 tick timer would prevent the stun from being endless. Right now a Minotaur can charge for stun maybe 3-4 times in the duration of a tick. Making this change means the victim only has to be worried about getting charged once per tick and can fight comfortably without having to worry about another one until the next tick. Currently any class can still charge for damage repeatedly fyi. 

Triggers are pretty devastating for initiating skills that almost never fail and have little to no drawback if they do fail. I.E. Charge and Petrify. Are triggers the issues or the skills themselves...? 

Lecitus

 

[Aeva]

41 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

I don't find minotaur charge OP for the lag or what it does for minotaur berserkers.  What I do find OP about it is that it can be spammed in a room and there is no way to walk in on a minotaur spamming charge and get the first hit unless they lag.  Now, if there was a small delay on activating the skill, it would mean they would literally have to be faster than their opponent and use it at the right time.  This also means they would suffer, but only slightly, against an autosneaking class or cabal.  It should be an offensive skill, not a defensive one.  This will make it such.

-Cirilha

 

 

 

iirc, apprehend was once lagless. i had a trib fairly recently and learned that it is no longer the case. strikes me as a similar thing.

[EllaThePuppy]

46 minutes ago, Aeva said:

iirc, apprehend was once lagless. i had a trib fairly recently and learned that it is no longer the case. strikes me as a similar thing.

You recall correctly. Was especially nasty when you got wanted as a lowbie and the blood guard did an obscene amount of damage despite the scaling.

I'll just echo Lecitus' point. A skill that can be abused with a trigger should lead us to ask the question - is the issue the trigger or the skill?

Personally, my opinion is that people play Minotaurs incredibly rarely, despite the fact that they're generally a decent race. With that in mind, minotaur charge in its current form is the only reason people choose to play the race. So if it were changed to include a 0 hour timer - which I don't disagree with, as that would require you to use the lag strategically vs just benefiting from the extra damage - then my opinion would be that they would need something else to make them enjoyable to play. Adding a point or two of dex might be something worth considering. Making them genuinely giant sized could be something as well, as I believe they're "large" currently.

But I do think all this begs the question - why don't people play minotaurs, and when they do, why are they always the target of "OP" criticism? Yet if they're "OP", why are they consistently a flash in the pan and then we go six months or longer without seeing another one?

[Zhurong]

5 hours ago, Anonymous said:

Oh trust me, it's not just you nor was that targeted at you.  It's not very difficult to read a log and figure out a trigger is being used.

Aely

 

I got accused for using triggers because charge XXXX was always in my bar and I can chase using the numpad. If you pay close attention to flee directions, its super easy to move and charge. If I fought people with sneak, I tried to go to rooms with limited exits to better my chances of luckily going the right direction.

[Zhurong]

1 hour ago, Anonymous said:

I don't find minotaur charge OP for the lag or what it does for minotaur berserkers.  What I do find OP about it is that it can be spammed in a room and there is no way to walk in on a minotaur spamming charge and get the first hit unless they lag.  Now, if there was a small delay on activating the skill, it would mean they would literally have to be faster than their opponent and use it at the right time.  This also means they would suffer, but only slightly, against an autosneaking class or cabal.  It should be an offensive skill, not a defensive one.  This will make it such.

-Cirilha

 

 

 

Same can go for blackjack, strangle, sleep, hypnosis, ecstacy, etc... Not a good argument.

[Anonymous]

Just now, Zhurong said:

Same can go for blackjack, strangle, sleep, hypnosis, ecstacy, etc... Not a good argument.

Blackjack has a counter.  Strangle has a counter.  Hypnosis has a counter.  All of those counters can be done AHEAD of time.  Charge has no counter which you can prep.  Either blind the minotaur or don't enter the room.

-Cirilha

 

[tassinvegeta]

16 minutes ago, EllaThePuppy said:

But I do think all this begs the question - why don't people play minotaurs, and when they do, why are they always the target of "OP" criticism? Yet if they're "OP", why are they consistently a flash in the pan and then we go six months or longer without seeing another one?

Much the same can be said for many combos that are considered OP. The pb resorts to ooc and ic abuse or simply not playing around them. You get little to no respect. And depending upon the player behind the combo, you  might start to receive very little satisfaction to playing a class considered op and not fixed. In the end its just terrible for the game. Just the way it is across any game. Its nothing new here. 

[Zhurong]

1 minute ago, Anonymous said:

Blackjack has a counter.  Strangle has a counter.  Hypnosis has a counter.  All of those counters can be done AHEAD of time.  Charge has no counter which you can prep.  Either blind the minotaur or don't enter the room.

-Cirilha

 

Or eat the first charge, wait for them to flee, move away. Reset the fight. Btw, during Slinore's tenure, try getting past a petrify trib psi. Your petrified, guard auto takes the front, your paralyzed and screwed. There's ways around Minos, just figure it will be like being a shaman trying to get the fight to go your way. It will take time.

[tassinvegeta]

4 minutes ago, Zhurong said:

Or eat the first charge, wait for them to flee, move away. Reset the fight. Btw, during Slinore's tenure, try getting past a petrify trib psi. Your petrified, guard auto takes the front, your paralyzed and screwed. There's ways around Minos, just figure it will be like being a shaman trying to get the fight to go your way. It will take time.

Nah doesn't work. I played Lamah remember? If a mage casts a single spell that's enough lag for me to flee, return and get another charge in. You should know you can do this, I don't know why you're defending it so hard lol. 

[Zhurong]

I didnt say to cast a spell, I said look for the opportunity to get out. Run away. Reset the fight. I've played a ton of Minos. Many have been beaten by casters/communers.

[Anonymous]

1 minute ago, Zhurong said:

Or eat the first charge, wait for them to flee, move away. Reset the fight. Btw, during Slinore's tenure, try getting past a petrify trib psi. Your petrified, guard auto takes the front, your paralyzed and screwed. There's ways around Minos, just figure it will be like being a shaman trying to get the fight to go your way. It will take time.

The argument of ways around them falls into confirmation bias.  For instance, I have only ever lost once to a Psi and that was because I decided to fight Viruthix on a fire giant cleric and NOT flee.  Does this mean Psi's are not OP?  No, it means I know how to fight them or avoid them.  Secondly, waiting for them to flee ONLY works if you do not use a skill or are somehow outdamaging them.

To your point, Psi got changed after that and the way petrify worked got changed as well.  Did that trib psi die?  Yes.  Yet, the skill and how it worked was the problem.  Lich was super powerful in the beginning as well, and they got nerfed because it was to powerful.  We help to fix the game and make it enjoyable by analyzing and fixing the mechanical problems.   

-Cirilha

 

[EllaThePuppy]

12 minutes ago, Zhurong said:

Same can go for blackjack, strangle, sleep, hypnosis, ecstacy, etc... Not a good argument.

Every skill you mentioned has a timer preventing the thief/ninja/necromancer/psi/vampire from repeating it after the first successful (or in at least two of those cases, unsuccessful) usage.

[tassinvegeta]

5 minutes ago, Zhurong said:

I didnt say to cast a spell, I said look for the opportunity to get out. Run away. Reset the fight. I've played a ton of Minos. Many have been beaten by casters/communers.

Good luck with that. Again as Lamah if they're running they're not winning. If they happen to get a spell in 1 out of 100 times I'll just flee reset too lol. Just means the odds are screwed far too heavily in my favor. I can mess up 99 times, they can get the advantage only once. I barely remember even being challenged by most casters/communers. Maybe I should post some of my old logs of this but then it'd seem like I'm gloating and would have little educational value outside of proving the point about charge.

[Anonymous]

Minotaurs berserkers should indeed be able to keep their ability to charge, but not endlessly UNLESS you take away the lag component.  I'm perfectly fine with letting them charge over and over and over and even continue to get the added damage a free murder round.  But, as Lecitus pointed out those 3-4 charges per tick also add up to 8 unanswered rounds of damage for a caster unless they have a damage shield, pets or have some melee.  Combine that with it can be spammed in a room, and you can never run in on a minotaur and get a spell off unless they are blind because it is not about speed, it is about game mechanics.  Entering a room has lag attached to it (even though it is minor) while spamming charge does not.

Skills that do not fail should definitely have a drawback to the user.  Psi have serious drawbacks to their use that many people do not capitalize on.  I can't go into specifics, but many people run away the moment a skill happens not realizing the drawback to the caster.  I am one of those in support of nerfing ego whip debuffing potential AND duration.  It is just too much.  The regeneration part is just fine to me as their are ways to prevent it.  Poison them, plague them, make them bleed or even just stay on the offensive and they won't be sleeping a tick to regen.  Psi are strong, but so are vampires in the right hands.  So are Lich in the right hands as well.  I also proposed doubling the meditation time it takes for the psi to recover their spells.  This way, they have a downtime where they MUST reset and psi are EXTREMELY vulnerable during that downtime.  No other class is as vulnerable, period.

-Cirilha

 

[Zhurong]

3 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

Minotaurs berserkers should indeed be able to keep their ability to charge, but not endlessly UNLESS you take away the lag component.  I'm perfectly fine with letting them charge over and over and over and even continue to get the added damage a free murder round.  But, as Lecitus pointed out those 3-4 charges per tick also add up to 8 unanswered rounds of damage for a caster unless they have a damage shield, pets or have some melee.  Combine that with it can be spammed in a room, and you can never run in on a minotaur and get a spell off unless they are blind because it is not about speed, it is about game mechanics.  Entering a room has lag attached to it (even though it is minor) while spamming charge does not.

Skills that do not fail should definitely have a drawback to the user.  Psi have serious drawbacks to their use that many people do not capitalize on.  I can't go into specifics, but many people run away the moment a skill happens not realizing the drawback to the caster.  I am one of those in support of nerfing ego whip debuffing potential AND duration.  It is just too much.  The regeneration part is just fine to me as their are ways to prevent it.  Poison them, plague them, make them bleed or even just stay on the offensive and they won't be sleeping a tick to regen.  Psi are strong, but so are vampires in the right hands.  So are Lich in the right hands as well.  I also proposed doubling the meditation time it takes for the psi to recover their spells.  This way, they have a downtime where they MUST reset and psi are EXTREMELY vulnerable during that downtime.  No other class is as vulnerable, period.

-Cirilha

 

A coffined vampire during the daytime?

[Anonymous]

Just now, Zhurong said:

A coffined vampire during the daytime?

A coffined vampire during the daytime does not lose every protection they have.

 

[Anonymous]

^^ -Cirilha

 

[Zhurong]

Why dont we just make a new thread so everyone can post skills that they wish to see changed?

[Anonymous]

I'll put this out there since people don't seem to understand how weak a psi is during this time.  There is a high chance to lose every psi spell you have when you meditate.  No bash protection, no sanctuary, no armor spells, no flight.  The longer you meditate, the higher the chance goes.   And it isn't you meditate for an hour and you get all your spells back either.

-Cirilha

 

[Zhurong]

I wouldnt know about psi's first hand. After failing the quest I was told I couldnt apply for it anymore.

[Ulmusdorn]

36 minutes ago, Zhurong said:

I wouldnt know about psi's first hand. After failing the quest I was told I couldnt apply for it anymore.

Couldn't of been recently.