www.costofwar.com

[Warpnow]

www.costofwar.com

Interresting, eh?

[Fiere]

Wow, that makes me wanna be sick. Hock a billion of that over my way, why don't they?

[Iyorvin]

It's like watching Bill Gates make money!

[savnt]

Its rather sad a monetary rolling counter is more sickening to most people than the death toll count.

[Warpnow]

The death count is not being properly tallied.

And trust me, the death count IS sickening, but for the thousands that have died in the war, the money spent could have saved millions.

Don't get me wrong, life is invaluable...nothing stands up to its infinite value, that being said...its still not wrong to be sickened by the amount of money WE are paying towards mass slaughter.

The american people have, in large part, lost contact with the true value of money. We have lived in the life of luxury and in a boosted economic state for far too long. To us, money is a luxury, to most, money is a necessity in which they stay alive.

The fact that we can foolishly throw away 300 BILLION dollars in such an unfruitful endeavor is sickening in a different way than death counts. Because we have that kind of gross overfunding other countries starve.

The majority of the world's money should not be in the hands of its minority, and even worse is that is geographically located into the few rich countries in the world.

While thousands have died in the war, the propogation of the way in which we went about the war has and will continue to kill millions.

[Iyorvin]

The death count is not being properly tallied.

And trust me, the death count IS sickening, but for the thousands that have died in the war, the money spent could have saved millions.

Don't get me wrong, life is invaluable...nothing stands up to its infinite value, that being said...its still not wrong to be sickened by the amount of money WE are paying towards mass slaughter.

The american people have, in large part, lost contact with the true value of money. We have lived in the life of luxury and in a boosted economic state for far too long. To us, money is a luxury, to most, money is a necessity in which they stay alive.

The fact that we can foolishly throw away 300 BILLION dollars in such an unfruitful endeavor is sickening in a different way than death counts. Because we have that kind of gross overfunding other countries starve.

The majority of the world's money should not be in the hands of its minority, and even worse is that is geographically located into the few rich countries in the world.

While thousands have died in the war, the propogation of the way in which we went about the war has and will continue to kill millions.

Take responsibility. Even the Americans who notice the mistakes of America only sit back and talk/trash the current leaders. I feel so bad for you guys right now, whether you like Bush or not, after 5 and a half years even people in other countries are noticing your problems.

[Warpnow]

Talk?

I've signed the impeachment petition.

[Iyorvin]

Good for you, always inspires me to be more political when I see others doing it.

[Crypticant]

I'm just holing up in my house, stockpiling guns, ammunition, and food, and waiting for the rapture. It's coming, you know. Jerry Falwell says so.

[Zavero]

All this is just your opinion Warpnow. Some people (not saying myself) support our president. As some do not. I would like to see you put in the position of president and then have something like 9/11 confront you and your decision making. Not to mention, Bush is the president, he is only a spokesman with power. There are people behind the scenes that rock the boat. You blame Bush for everything, at least he is doing something instead of banging Monica with a cigar or smoking and not inhaling. Every president has their problems, they are only human after all. It is your right to go against the president and anyone for that matter while living here in the states. That doesn't mean you're always right. This country has problems, just like every country. We are like a movie star. The things we do right aren't often seen, but the things we do wrong are put all over the papers.

As always this is just my opinion.

[a-guitarist]

...

The american people have, in large part, lost contact with the true value of money. We have lived in the life of luxury and in a boosted economic state for far too long. To us, money is a luxury, to most, money is a necessity in which they stay alive.

The fact that we can foolishly throw away 300 BILLION dollars in such an unfruitful endeavor is sickening in a different way than death counts. Because we have that kind of gross overfunding other countries starve.

The majority of the world's money should not be in the hands of its minority, and even worse is that is geographically located into the few rich countries in the world.

...

If you've got a problem with the way we spend money, why don't you go donate your paychecks to the red cross or something? Everyone is willing to take the high road of saying "We don't need all this money." But what do they do with it? Pay for their internet, pay for their gas for their cars when in places that have it, public transportation is a viable resource left untapped sometimes, pay for name-brand clothing, constantly upgrade computers or buy new computer games, or so on and so forth. What are all those things? Things that are not required to live.

So what I follow, from your second paragraph, is that you think we, globaly, should be a communism? That's really all I'm seeing from what you're saying. Please let me know if this isn't what you mean. Because, saying that the US is spending money wrongly, money that it made in whatever ways it did (I'm not saying all the ways were legit) is like saying that it is wrong for me to spend my four hundred dollar check on video games and clothing.

As for a majority of the money being in the hands of the minority, well, I'm not sure how I feel about this on a global scale. If it were just a country by country scale, I'd say it doesn't matter. It's a matter of business. But world wide? Hrm. Not sure. I'll have to ponder this for awhile.

All in all, I'm not trying to say you're opinions are stupid or anything of the sort. I'm just sharing my line of thinking. Maybe when I think about it awhile longer, I'll post about the global money being in the hands of the minorities. Hrm. Interesting.

a-g

[Chayesh]

What little money the Third World, i.e. the poorest countries have, was loaned to them by mainly the United States. Loan, incidentally, that are not collected upon effectively, and if they were repaid, would pretty much knock one big *** chunk out of the National Debt.

Also, poverty is no exemption from warfare and killing. Most of the countries in Africa, some of the poorest around, and the Balkan states are doing a pretty good job killing people with little to no funds to speak of. Redistributing other people's wealth is a hallmark of communism. Funny how often it's OTHER PEOPLE'S money that is so often discussed, and not their own, which they have total control and prerogative to use how they wish.

[elfdude]

All this is just your opinion Warpnow. Some people (not saying myself) support our president. As some do not. I would like to see you put in the position of president and then have something like 9/11 confront you and your decision making. Not to mention, Bush is the president, he is only a spokesman with power. There are people behind the scenes that rock the boat. You blame Bush for everything, at least he is doing something instead of banging Monica with a cigar or smoking and not inhaling. Every president has their problems, they are only human after all. It is your right to go against the president and anyone for that matter while living here in the states. That doesn't mean you're always right. This country has problems, just like every country. We are like a movie star. The things we do right aren't often seen, but the things we do wrong are put all over the papers.

As always this is just my opinion.

Yea about 9/11.... http://youtube.com/watch?v=5zUht6cLkMc&search=loose%20change

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-guQaYgrWqI&search=loose%20change

[goldbond]

i'm disgusted by our military's lives lost, the iraqi lives lost, and yes the amount of our country's wealth being spent on this operation in iraq. it's ineffectual and in fact it is exacerbating the problem it's trying to prevent by creating new generations of potential terrorists that will spend the rest of their lives involved in radical organizations that threaten the u.s., the uk, and other western nations. all peoples resist occupation. it's that simple.

while that is happening, freedoms at home are becoming a scarce commodity in all depts. this is always what happens when a militarily powerful nation begins to spend its war chest occupying nations and participating in wars that are questionable. the nation starts to get poorer, and freedoms are lost, most of the time forever. this is what is happening to the US. all the propaganda on any news network cannot hide what is happening at the end of the day. yeah, it's very sad and demoralizing to see this happen at such an accelerated pace in our own lifetimes.

[Warpnow]

I am not a supporter of communism as a system of goverment. I do, however, realize the good sides of any form of belief, and communism is not without its nice points.

The Iraq war is proving more and more to be what some of us always knew it would be: a pointless quagmire. We have spent billions of dollars and the situation in Iraq has not improved. We stepped in on a cultural dispute in military way we never should have, in the process losing all of our credibility overseas. The US soccer team travels in an unmarked white van because we are so hated, while Iran drives in huge buses with their flags painted on the sides, yet we think we are the saviors? Give me a break. We entered a country that was extremely unbalanced. We dropped bombs on residential areas, food supplies and hospitals. We used a shock and awe campaign which did little more than waste money and ensure that peace would never be established in the middle east.

Here's something I think we should remember: When trying to destabalize someone's beliefs, you can't take actions which credit them. Terrorist supporters exist all over the middle east, so what do we do? We drop bombs and kill innocent people, we subject millions of people to strip searches and commit other heinous acts which, by our own laws and ethics, would be reprehensible in both court of law and society. We treat the people like animals and herd them around. We destroy their system of goverment and we instill a new, foreign one for them.

And all for what?

I'm sorry, the answer is oil.

A few weeks ago a bill went before congress that had many parts. The house of representitives SPECIFICALLY took out two parts of that bill, one of which ensured that military bases would not be built in Iraq, and the other ensuring that Iraq's oil belongs to Iraq.

It is, quite simply, war profiteering. Movements have already been set into place to take Iraq's oil from them and I, for one, will not stand for it. If any goverment or elected office proposes that Iraq's oil be, in any way, diverted to the USA, I will personally be down there protesting. If we helped the Iraqees(sp?) out of compassion, we shouldn't need a reward. I, however, don't think that's why we did it.

Back to my point about Money Flow. This argument is kind of complex, so I want to make a few basic assertions that we can all agree on first.

Wealth is a limited asset.

When one country becomes richer, it is necessary that another country or countries becomes poorer.

Therefore, essentially, in order for third world countries to become more wealthy, it is necessary that the wealth of the world powers becomes less.

I don't think many people realize this. Everyone isn't rich, can't happen. Technology can globally improve the standard of life, but the balance always exists..and if you help another to rise, you help yourself to fall.

That is why I think we need to realize that the reason alot of countries are poor is because countries like us posess most of the wealth. At the moment, Actualy, I believe China is the richest country in the world, with the US in second(I believe, don't quote me). But look all the middle eastern countries...they have no money and no real way to get any, because the world powers posess it.

And someone asked me what I would have done if I were the president.

I would have, immediately upon taking office, severed any and all connections with Israel. I would have moved that we stop supplying them with weapons and that we politically oppose their actions, along with the actions of their enemies. That is a brutal war with no right person. They are cultural disputes lead by people who can't see beyond the slaughter.

I believe if our attitude had changed to this sooner, 9/11 would never have happened. People don't do things for no reason. Even Hitler had a reason for his actions. The most evil of men were compelled by a cause. Realizing these causes and working them out is always preferrable to war.

And my final word for this post is simple: We must downsize our military. We have too much power for our own good. Its not just the money...its more important than that. We should not have a standing military that is constantly preparing for WW3. I mean, when WW3 comes, then we can arm up, okay? Having that kind of power just makes us more compelled to use it.

[WarriorCleric]

Wealth is a limited asset.

When one country becomes richer, it is necessary that another country or countries becomes poorer.

Therefore, essentially, in order for third world countries to become more wealthy, it is necessary that the wealth of the world powers becomes less.

I don't think many people realize this. Everyone isn't rich, can't happen. Technology can globally improve the standard of life, but the balance always exists..and if you help another to rise, you help yourself to fall.

That is why I think we need to realize that the reason alot of countries are poor is because countries like us posess most of the wealth. At the moment, Actualy, I believe China is the richest country in the world, with the US in second(I believe, don't quote me). But look all the middle eastern countries...they have no money and no real way to get any, because the world powers posess it.

Oh jesus, I don't know where to start with this... I may need a day to get my senses back... Wrong... just wrong...

WC

[J.Twendrist]

Wanna know how to get the gas prices down? I can tell you. The government has got to force the oil companies to upgrade their factories. Back in the seventies the governemnt tried to fix the standards of saftey and told them they could not build anymore factories or refineries without making sure they meet current standards of saftey. Ever since few refineries have been built due to the cost it would take to upgrade. Don't fool yourself, there is plenty of oil in the U.S. We are nowhere near a shortage. All the oil that comes here from the middle east is shipped right out to Japan as an export.

[elfdude]

I actually don't want anyone to think that im a bleeding heart liberal but I am a stren opposer of corruption. I mean if you want to go to the middle east and **** **** up, then tell us thats what your going to do. Its obvious that you were carrying on the agenda of your father, and you also want to keep all your lobbyists happy by insuring another 20 years of oil, instead of putting all that money into research for alternative energy sources. I'd rather have an honest ******* than a dishonest douchebag.

[Zavero]

Elfdude, although these video's you show me could be true, that doesn't mean that they are. Tapes can be tampered with so I take things at face value when I was watching it happen myself. I won't say they are false, but I won't at the same time change my veiws that I have got over the years. Either way, if it is some conspiracy or not, you cannot just believe that the american people would allow Bush to sit idle in office after it happened?

Goldbond, I would like to know what freedoms have been taken from us? And to think that if we did not try and stop terrorism that it wouldn't continue is just ludicrous. There will always be terrorism in some form or another. And terrorist attacks don't just happen in the western countries, it's all over the world.

Warpnow, I don't believe we can ever truely establish peace in the middle east, it isn't our place to really. Nor do I think we are over there for "peace." I also don't believe that we are even over there for oil. I was in the marine corps, my older brother is in the army in Iraq right now. My little brother in the navy. It is my opinion and the opinion of others in the military I have known, such as my brother, that we are there to establish a permanent base of operations like we did in Korea. Not to give peace to the middle east, but to basically wait for them to start something so we have people there.

As far as us herding people around, all this and that. It is a small percentage of u.s. military that have commited these "heinous acts" as you put it. Have you been over there? I imagine not. Unless given a good reason the US military cannot enter an Iraqi's home. And even then they have to have the Iraqi military with them. And if you knew some of the "heinous acts" that the Iraqis do to our military troups, civilian contractors, reporters, etc... then maybe you would understand why some soldiers lash out. I'm not saying it's right, we should be the bigger party and not do these acts, but it happens.

Yes lots of innocent people died. They die in every war. That will never change because in countries like Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, etc... that we go to war with, they like to use gorilla tactics. Which means they hide amoung the common people. It isn't uncommon for a small child to be holding a grenade and walk up to a soldier.

I don't agree with being over there necessary. Nor do I support Bush, I didn't vote for him, I didn't vote at all simply because I didn't see anyone worthy. But if I did, I would have voted for Bush simply because he started this ****, and if he doesn't finish it then we do need someone else perhaps. He IS the president though so I will do nothing but support him because he leads my country.

I hate talking about politics, why am I posting? ha. Damn you people getting me heated.

[elfdude]

Elfdude, although these video's you show me could be true, that doesn't mean that they are. Tapes can be tampered with so I take things at face value when I was watching it happen myself. I won't say they are false, but I won't at the same time change my veiws that I have got over the years. Either way, if it is some conspiracy or not, you cannot just believe that the american people would allow Bush to sit idle in office after it happened?

Goldbond, I would like to know what freedoms have been taken from us? And to think that if we did not try and stop terrorism that it wouldn't continue is just ludicrous. There will always be terrorism in some form or another. And terrorist attacks don't just happen in the western countries, it's all over the world.

Warpnow, I don't believe we can ever truely establish peace in the middle east, it isn't our place to really. Nor do I think we are over there for "peace." I also don't believe that we are even over there for oil. I was in the marine corps, my older brother is in the army in Iraq right now. My little brother in the navy. It is my opinion and the opinion of others in the military I have known, such as my brother, that we are there to establish a permanent base of operations like we did in Korea. Not to give peace to the middle east, but to basically wait for them to start something so we have people there.

As far as us herding people around, all this and that. It is a small percentage of u.s. military that have commited these "heinous acts" as you put it. Have you been over there? I imagine not. Unless given a good reason the US military cannot enter an Iraqi's home. And even then they have to have the Iraqi military with them. And if you knew some of the "heinous acts" that the Iraqis do to our military troups, civilian contractors, reporters, etc... then maybe you would understand why some soldiers lash out. I'm not saying it's right, we should be the bigger party and not do these acts, but it happens.

Yes lots of innocent people died. They die in every war. That will never change because in countries like Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, etc... that we go to war with, they like to use gorilla tactics. Which means they hide amoung the common people. It isn't uncommon for a small child to be holding a grenade and walk up to a soldier.

I don't agree with being over there necessary. Nor do I support Bush, I didn't vote for him, I didn't vote at all simply because I didn't see anyone worthy. But if I did, I would have voted for Bush simply because he started this ****, and if he doesn't finish it then we do need someone else perhaps. He IS the president though so I will do nothing but support him because he leads my country.

I hate talking about politics, why am I posting? ha. Damn you people getting me heated.

so I assume you have seen all of loose change then? I don't quite understand how after seeing loose change a person cannot start thinking about certain things. I mean, wheres the airplane parts from the pentagon, the ones that they recovered were refuted by the company that made the alleged airplane parts. Also, how did the wtc fall down, I don't remember the exact figure but the steel used in the wtc had a falter point of around 5000 degrees, whereas the jet fuel could at the most burn at 3000 degrees, and it wouldn't warp, it would need to be 5000 degrees to even warp. And as a whole, the american people are dumb dude, they don't like thinking about **** that is even the least but unsettling. I'm sure we'll find some stuff out 50 years down the line about how we got screwed. And your response to goldbond is funny, have you ever heard of the patriot act?

[Zavero]

I never said I didn't have the questions in my mind, I just said I am not going to change my opinion because of a tape that could have been fabricated. Even if there was some big conspiracy with it all, what makes you think Bush could change it? He is just a spokesman for our government.

Yes I have heard of the patriot act. But I also realise that you will never be 100% free, because along with that comes chaos. We need some order do we not?

[WarriorCleric]

Wealth is a limited asset.

When one country becomes richer, it is necessary that another country or countries becomes poorer.

Therefore, essentially, in order for third world countries to become more wealthy, it is necessary that the wealth of the world powers becomes less.

I don't think many people realize this. Everyone isn't rich, can't happen. Technology can globally improve the standard of life, but the balance always exists..and if you help another to rise, you help yourself to fall.

That is why I think we need to realize that the reason alot of countries are poor is because countries like us posess most of the wealth. At the moment, Actualy, I believe China is the richest country in the world, with the US in second(I believe, don't quote me). But look all the middle eastern countries...they have no money and no real way to get any, because the world powers posess it.

The american people have, in large part, lost contact with the true value of money. We have lived in the life of luxury and in a boosted economic state for far too long. To us, money is a luxury, to most, money is a necessity in which they stay alive.

The fact that we can foolishly throw away 300 BILLION dollars in such an unfruitful endeavor is sickening in a different way than death counts. Because we have that kind of gross overfunding other countries starve.

Wealth is a measurement of assests.

Money is not a luxary, and money is not a need.

And this rich country garbage? Developed country is what you want to talk about, wealth is not a measure of developement. Money has never been, and will never be, an acurrate way to measure the developement of a country, it's people, or it's abilities because of a little thing called income inequality. Now I understand that this idea's may never have been covered in eco 101 or 102, but no economist is ever going to tell you that the wealth of a nation represents it's developement. And to the extent that personal wealth of the citizens is used to calculate a developed country, the countries gross domestic product is adjusted by it's purchusing power parity, because ten dollars to an american doesn't mean crap, but give that to an indian, and he can do quite a bit more with it.

We are a developed country, yet everyone is not rich in the united states. Maybe in your neck of the woods people are driving around brand new SUVs, living in three story houes, and eating caviar out of endangered animals orifices, but thats not the way it is in all of the nation.

Also, did you even read the link you shared? That large and increasing number figure you threw at us, notice what it says? At the cost of the tax payer, and I know somalians and indians are not american tax payers. This big spending going on is not being taken from any other countries hands. It's being taken from your back pocket and mine. And where do you think nations get there money from? The get it from the people in the country. It's not growing on trees, and unfortunely for undeveloped nations what they have to offer the world is natural resources, which don't generate squat unless you are lucky enough to have oil. Is it our fault? No. The countries will develope eventually, they can't stop it, and you can see it happening. Signs of a developing nation: Rural to urban migration, from agricultural to industrial, production to service jobs. These are all features that you can see happening the world over. Unfortunetly with the good of prosepctive development comes the bad, as a country becomes more developed income inequality is going to get a lot bigger before it gets better.

Measurements of developed nations as stated by the UN: Poverity level(and not by ourstandards, adjusted to gdp/ppp), life expectancy, growth, education, income inequality and others. And according to the factors of a developed nation, Australia, Norway, and Iceland are blowing us out of the water.

And contrary to popular belief, just because people live in the middle east doesn't mean they are poor, and doesn't mean they are fools. ****, I just watched anderson cooper travel through Lebanon and Syria talking to the citizens, they looked well dressed and healthy to me, atleast better than the Jode family I have living down the street, and some a lot better than me. ****, look up the United Arab Emerates, they are doing just fine for themselves.

And the good points of comunism make it a potentialy good idea, but the reality is different, I am sure we all know the little joke:

[]A kid comes home from school with a writing assignment. He asks his father for help. "Dad, can you tell me the difference between potenialy and reality?"

His father looks up, thoughtfully, and then says, "I'll demonstrate. Go ask your mother if she would sleep with Robert Redford for a million dollars. Then go ask your sister if she would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars. Then come back and tell me what you've learned."

The kid is puzzled, but decides to ask his mother. "Mom, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Robert Redford?"

"Don't tell your father, but yes, I would."

He then goes to his sister's room. "Sis, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Brad Pitt?"

She replies, "Oh my god! Definitely!"

The kid goes back to his father. "Dad, I think I've figured it out. Potentially, we are sitting on two million bucks, but in reality, we are living with two sluts."[]

It's not going to work because people are greedy. Hence, Adam Smith and the invisible hand of the market, an individual looking out for his best interest also does what is best for the good of the community. Sure, someone is going to bring up a Beautiful Mind and Nash, but he just added to it. But the invisible hand extends far beyond economics. But we've digressed.

P.S. I hate Bush.

WC

[J.Twendrist]

Hrm, no bush can't possibly do it all by himself, and all the blaime isn't in his hands. A lot of **** we are dealing with comes from the senate and all those fat old farts selling their votes to corprate America. What scares me about bush though, is the fact that he has been considering dropping a nuke on Iran, which would be an act of war which would most likely stir the rest of the middle east to arm against us. Also it would be a war crime, and a crime against humanity.

[Warpnow]

I am well aware of the downfalls of communism. I would never support it as a system of goverment, but I also won't be idiotic enough to assume that it, like most ways of thinking, doesn't have a point to make.

And, yes, the middle east looks pretty nice in the bigger, nicer cities. But then you go to the slums...which are so much worse than our slums...like I've seen reports on India where people live in tents they've built...like being at a flea market miles long...thousands of people, sleeping on the ground in their little pitched up tents. However, India is the country I have the most faith in ATM. The people there are very industrious and many of them work long hours in technologically advanced jobs(tech help, pc repair, etc) with far more global exports in both products and services than they import.

And Zavero, the points those videos rise may or may not be good points, but the way in which they do it, with basically no actual sources or educated people backing their assertions of complex physics equations, they aren't going to convince the masses.

Has Bin Laden denied being responsible for 9/11? I mean, OTHERS are saying he didn't do it. He seems to me, with all his tapes and going underground...to be embracing the idea. *shrug*

[Chayesh]

Your statement that in order for poorer nations to get rich, richer nations must get poorer and vice versa is HUGELY in error. You've hitched your wagon on a MAJOR fallacy of the liberal ideology, that is, that there are a limited, finite number of dollars out there for all to have. NOT TRUE. Totally false. Economies CAN grow in such a fashion that everyone gets richer.

This fallacy of logic is the whole reason behind all these absurd "stick it to the successful people' schemes thought up by the leftist factions of our country. Nothing more than sour grapes that someone has more than you so hey, let's take it from them. It serves them right for stealing that money from the hands of that other person. Totally not true. Both can and do make more money. If I make more, it does not mean some other consumer makes less as a result.