Game state.

[Trick]

Game state.

 

[Seravin]

The game is staffed by volunteers that have the only vote or say in what or how things are changed or done. 
 

Play the game they allow us to or don’t. 

[Gifnab]

A few things...

9 hours ago, Trick said:

We are not your toys. You exist to serve us, the players, for without us you mean nothing. You entire job is to enrich the environment that we inhabit. There are a few of you that need to learn this.

I feel like this may be unresolved resentment from past administrations. I have seen nothing from the current administration in at least the last year or two that is indicative of this, in any way. I would go so far as to say that we currently have the most transparent, player-centric administration in FL history.

What you may see sometimes, frankly, is defensiveness. Yes, the staff sometimes gets defensive. This is also likely a product of the tense relationships that existed between players and staff in the past. And on behalf of the staff, I apologize for that. We can all do better (players and staff alike) on that front. So let's just do better.

9 hours ago, Trick said:

Being an IMM does not mean you are above the rules or allowed to ignore them. I have seen this recently and hope it will change.

I have no idea what you are referring to here. If you would like to elaborate, whether by prayer, DM, or otherwise, please do so. But I can assure you, having seen the conversations that we have amongst ourselves about our own characters, that IMMs are held to a MUCH higher standard in every aspect of their mortal gameplay (sometimes even unfairly so).

9 hours ago, Trick said:

Rarely do we disrespect your position as it is earned and respected.

I want to give my $.02 here as the newest member of the Immortal staff. In the last six months I have experienced the following:

• I have had numerous players make statements to me, in public and private, suggesting they knew who I was prior to becoming an immortal. The purpose of the "veil of secrecy" for immortal identities is to allow us to continue to enjoy the game without compromising our impartiality toward the players as staff AND without maintaining the personal biases and tensions of pre-existing relationships we may have had within the community as players. In short, it is to give us a clean slate to act as administrators of the game and community.
• On numerous occasions, again both in public and private, players have told me that they appreciated my input, but would wait to hear back from a higher level staff member. I like to think that I am pretty judicious in stating when I am stating this as a general community member and when I am stating something as a member of the staff. If I am stating something as a member of the staff, I would think it is fair to assume that I am doing so in an informed capacity. I know what I can and cannot commit to as a lower level/newer staff member -- that's something for me to worry about, not players.
• Several times, players have reached out to me about the activity/commitment of other staff. While I do not have a problem with this on a basic level, it does put me (and anyone else that receives these kinds of messages) in an awkward position. At the end of the day, I would encourage folks to go by the assumption that every staff member is committed to the game unless they quit or say otherwise, and that any delays in their activity are related to personal circumstances (which they almost always are).

11 hours ago, Trick said:

I love this game. It can be far more amazing than it is and that hinges on the @Immortals and players alike. Please contribute, participate, or encompass the desire of this game any way you can.

On this, we agree. This game can be more and better. Some of that is incumbent on the staff, which many of us are working ardently on, day and night, with whatever free time we can offer. Other parts of it rely on the players, and I cannot stress enough that while this community has come a long way, we can always be better and do better. Here is a list of a few things that players can do to better assist in these endeavors:

• Have an idea? Post it on the forums under Ideas & Suggestions. Discord is not a good venue for protracted discussion on new suggestions, where multiple staff (spread across various time zones and real life commitments) can all be given an equal opportunity to weigh in. If you have an idea, feel free to discuss it and spitball around it on Discord. But if you want it to be taken seriously, please post it on the forums.
• Have a concern? Here's what to do:
  • If it's about the actions of another player or character, post it on prayer.
  • If it's about an "unintended feature"/potential bug, please post it under bug reports.
  • If it's about a perceived balance issue, please post about it on prayer.
• Ideally all of the above would be supported with a log -- sometimes just a quick snippet that shows something occurring, other times with multiple logs that show an issue in action over an extended period of time. In any case, please know this -- we don't ask for logs because we don't believe you. Saying "post logs" is not the same as saying "pics or it didn't happen". We ask you to post logs so that we can try to get to the root of an issue and solve it. If a change needs to be made, your logs could be critical to helping us evaluate what needs changing, or by how much. Without those, all we can muster is our best guess based on hypotheticals, and that's how we end up with potentially lopsided changes. So please, post logs and do so not to "prove your point" but to provide us with the supporting material that we need to make the best possible balance decisions we can.
• Finally, be kind. To the staff. To one another. To new players. To the game itself. There is no obligation for anyone to play OR staff here -- we do it because it is rewarding and enjoyable. If it is unenjoyable, or the sense of fulfillment just isn't there, we leave. And that's how we lose great players and staff alike.
  • A common contributor to loss of enjoyment? Ye Olde Pitchfork Mob. Bandwagon negativity -- whether toward a player, a staff, or even a change or area, doesn't feel good to the people involved; many of whom are simply working with what's available to them. So please, if the urge strikes to pick up the pitchforks and torches... DM me first. Talk it out. I will try as hard as I can to offer an open-minded, engaging ear. And if at the end of our discussion, you still feel that the issue isn't resolved, then by all means, post on prayer, post on general, post on Discord. But please, for the love of god, don't incite the mob and don't let yourself get swept up in it either.

[Trick]

Firstly, not that its an excuse, but I had a bit of wine and some frustrations leaked over as you noted. I deleted the post because I felt it didn't accurately reflect my thoughts in a manner I thought suitable for a public forum. I don't want it to be misconstrued or taken in a way that was not inteded.

As to some of the points, I do believe there is one IMM in particular that doesn't exhibit the traits necessary to be in the position they are and their removal from their position would only benefit the game and the community. As we remove players that are not positive towards the game or the community we too should remove IMMs that stray from their roles.

Secondly, I have had several people message me asking if I have seen the Big Three, @Anume, @Erelei, or @Lloth, recently. Players are recognizing that the most influential people to this game are not active, whether that be in game or in the community, and that raises concerns.

1. Are they busy in real life?
2. Are they just done with FL? If so, what happens next?
3. Are they working on stuff that we aren't aware of?

 

I will say that these same players that ask me these questions have all stated; "Yeah, they are just done with this place". 

If players are saying the people that run this amazing corner of the internet are through, then that leads them to leaving the game or at least lowering their time invested which then leads to others doing the same. 

 

@Chief made a joke the other day in Discord about @Erelei making the shaman/healer/cleric rework in Destiny 2 and, although a joke and funny, rang a little true. I am not authority to decide how @Erelei spends his free time, nor is anyone else, and the work he has done for this game is not only monumental, but GREATLY appreciated, but it has tapered off. Whether that is due to real life obligations, COVID-19, or just a general feeling of being burnt out. I understand ALL of those and in no way want to force anyone to do anything they aren't up to doing, but the point is it has been noticed by players.

Bugs, changes, character coding, or anything else that hinges on the commitment of a single volunteer often puts a lot of strain on that person and we run the risk of possibly the most influential person this game has seen in the last 10 years leaving or losing interest in it all and that is a major concern.

 

We all love this game, this community, and the experiences that we share here and it would be a tragedy to see it come to an end.

I hope this thread or my following post didn't upset or offend anyone. That is not my intention.

 

Thanks.

 

[Anume]

You do not see a lot of things that happen behind the screens. I'm not inactive, nor am I planning to be. Yes, I got a lot on my plate right now in real life but I still make time for FL. I've been here when there were 0 players logged on. I've been here when I had 2 staff. Right now, we are not in that bad a position. A lot of innovation is going on and a lot of changes are getting discussed.

New areas go life a lot faster than they used to. 

Balance is still taking a lot of both Kassieti's, Gifnab's and my time. Often something will fit the sheer numbers but still not be balanced. That is where long discussions about how to change it, if to change it and discussions about the purpose of one piece of equipment come in.

There's also coming some new end game content very soon. Both regarding specials, and regular season stuff like Lloth announced.

[Trick]

Seeing that right there alleviates any concern I had about you leaving. When you have a voice that encompasses the well-being and future of the game, it goes a long way to hear it is all I am trying to convey.

Thank you for the post and addressing my concerns, I really do appreciate it.  

[Seravin]

1 hour ago, Gifnab said:

I have no idea what you are referring to here. If you would like to elaborate, whether by prayer, DM, or otherwise, please do so. But I can assure you, having seen the conversations that we have amongst ourselves about our own characters, that IMMs are held to a MUCH higher standard in every aspect of their mortal gameplay (sometimes even unfairly so).

We’ve investigated ourselves and found no evidence of wrongdoing. 

[Lloth]

I am still very committed to the game. I lost my job irl, so I'm a little busy with the big picture outside of the game right now. There's also an issue with test port and my immortal there that causes severe crashes. So I am doing a lot of my work offline when I can step away from my real-life responsibilities. The work I am doing is also fairly detailed, complex, and there's a lot of it. 

 

As Anume said, a lot of our work is behind the scenes. Especially the "big three". And as for any rumors of burnout or retirement... I can at least say for myself that if they were true, it would be incredibly announced. I'm not the type to just up and vanish from my role. So for everyone concerned about that... Don't be. Y'all ain't getting rid of me that easily.

[Trick]

Thank you for sharing that @Lloth. Your role here is massive and greatly appreciated. Like I told @Anume, it goes a long way to hear from you three, at least for me.

My intention isn’t for you to share your personal lives, but help us better understand what is happening so we don’t get upset at things that are fabricated through rumor or misconceptions. 
 

Thank you. 

[HBwillie]

I fucking love this game.  I suck at it, but I love it.

[the_nightmare]

Seeing that there are topics of the game status recently please allow me to say what I think. I haven't played the game in maybe 4 years. Before that I was very hardcore player spending many hours on it. I love the game, I basically grew with it. I started it when I was 15 years old and now I am 35 .I can tell you just like an example on the reason I left the game and 4 of my best friends too. I left because everything is sooo hard to get, I mean come on...It is easier to get a 100k year job than become (L) or (E) in the game. On my last toon I had to write 20 essays and interact a LOT just to get an (E) and in the end the immortal didn't promoted me so I deleted and never came back. When I am playing a game I don't like all my life to be built around it -  like FL is. I don't like to be dependent by anyone , unfortunately FL is so Immortal dependent that you basically can't achieve anything without IMM approval or blessing. What If the Immortal in charge for your cabal or application is not in the mood? What if they had a bad day or simply just doesn't like you? I think that the immortals should be like administrators to the game , not in this current state like door keepers to anything. I remember in FL 2.0 how basically everything was player run. Just the Qclasses and Qraces required a quest and an apllication. Please keep in mind , it is not my intention to insult any Immortal or anyone at all, I think they are great people for still running the game for FREE. This is just my opinion on what can be changed in the game to bring the old players back. More player-run mud will be more fun I believe. A mud where you can be anything and anyone and the sky is the limit.

[Gifnab]

Feedback is what keeps the world spinning 'round, so thanks for that.

I would encourage you to give things another try, as the pace of things like q-races and q-classes, cabal induction and promotions, etc. has all been picked up quite a bit. We are working more and more on the content side of things, so players don't have to rely on the staff quite so much for enjoyment, and we are open on further suggestions of how to do so.

[egreir]

7 minutes ago, the_nightmare said:

Seeing that there are topics of the game status recently please allow me to say what I think. I haven't played the game in maybe 4 years. Before that I was very hardcore player spending many hours on it. I love the game, I basically grew with it. I started it when I was 15 years old and now I am 35 .I can tell you just like an example on the reason I left the game and 4 of my best friends too. I left because everything is sooo hard to get, I mean come on...It is easier to get a 100k year job than become (L) or (E) in the game. On my last toon I had to write 20 essays and interact a LOT just to get an (E) and in the end the immortal didn't promoted me so I deleted and never came back. When I am playing a game I don't like all my life to be built around it -  like FL is. I don't like to be dependent by anyone , unfortunately FL is so Immortal dependent that you basically can't achieve anything without IMM approval or blessing. What If the Immortal in charge for your cabal or application is not in the mood? What if they had a bad day or simply just doesn't like you? I think that the immortals should be like administrators to the game , not in this current state like door keepers to anything. I remember in FL 2.0 how basically everything was player run. Just the Qclasses and Qraces required a quest and an apllication. Please keep in mind , it is not my intention to insult any Immortal or anyone at all, I think they are great people for still running the game for FREE. This is just my opinion on what can be changed in the game to bring the old players back. More player-run mud will be more fun I believe. A mud where you can be anything and anyone and the sky is the limit.

+1   cabal automation 2021! We can't be denied!

 

That being said, come back man! FL is making large steps in the right direction, things are much better. I've had a few qthings recently, and it's about 4-5 days from what I've seen.  The T, E, and L promotions could still use some work in my opinion, but it IS better than it used to be.  There's been some really good changes lately you should come check out.

[Trick]

45 minutes ago, the_nightmare said:

Seeing that there are topics of the game status recently please allow me to say what I think. I haven't played the game in maybe 4 years. Before that I was very hardcore player spending many hours on it. I love the game, I basically grew with it. I started it when I was 15 years old and now I am 35 .I can tell you just like an example on the reason I left the game and 4 of my best friends too. I left because everything is sooo hard to get, I mean come on...It is easier to get a 100k year job than become (L) or (E) in the game. On my last toon I had to write 20 essays and interact a LOT just to get an (E) and in the end the immortal didn't promoted me so I deleted and never came back. When I am playing a game I don't like all my life to be built around it -  like FL is. I don't like to be dependent by anyone , unfortunately FL is so Immortal dependent that you basically can't achieve anything without IMM approval or blessing. What If the Immortal in charge for your cabal or application is not in the mood? What if they had a bad day or simply just doesn't like you? I think that the immortals should be like administrators to the game , not in this current state like door keepers to anything. I remember in FL 2.0 how basically everything was player run. Just the Qclasses and Qraces required a quest and an apllication. Please keep in mind , it is not my intention to insult any Immortal or anyone at all, I think they are great people for still running the game for FREE. This is just my opinion on what can be changed in the game to bring the old players back. More player-run mud will be more fun I believe. A mud where you can be anything and anyone and the sky is the limit.

The new Church cabal is 100% player run and will allow you to achieve what you desire here. Maybe give that a shot?

[Seravin]

Hard agree with nightmare 

[Seravin]

Can’t level past 15 or 30 without a description. 

 

Want a qclass or qrace? Week or more wait plus you need to be chummy or bother the imms through ooc channels. In some cases line up play times-again probably through ooc channels. 
 

Need rp for anything? Decided by imms since quest rp isn’t actual role play. 
 

Want to be in a cabal? Unless it’s church you need to get promoted by (usually)the imm and then allowed to apply by imm. 
 

Want to get past V in a cabal? Imm approval again. 
 

Any sort of event or role play that changes the world big or small? Imm approval. 
 

Custom warcry? Restring? Imm approval. 

[the_nightmare]

Thank you guys for the warm welcome, I would like to return too..I am considering it, however I don't have much time to play like I used to do. This is why I am staying off because I remember that everything was taking basically ages and needed an approval. I am happy to see that things have changed in the right direction and maybe I will give it a go.  I think that the Immortals as people should only look after the rules being followed. This door keepers kind of stuff is so old school and was good when we had player base with thousands of people . I remember the times when we had 40-60 active players all the time and maybe such restrictions were needed back then. As @Seravin mentioned why things like descriptions should be approved?, Warcries , custom assassinations,  cabal entrances and so on? I mean yes, of course look after them as an administrators, make sure that they are fit in the proper RP way but also don't restrict them like now that they need approval and SO much hassle. I remember in FL 2.0 I got into a cabal many times in 30 level just with an application. The cabal members had to vote back then , no Immortal approval needed. I am throwing this just like an example. And excuse me once again ,I don't intend to offend anyone, I am just saying my opinion on what should improve for the better.

[egreir]

If we can't automate it, then I'd like to see a written list of criteria that must be met to get promoted to T. Then you can vote promote, or post on prayer that you have met those criteria.  I too agree that the "Gatekeeping" of certain character progression milestones is outdated.

 

I don't like the game telling me I need 10 hours and 10 quests until my next promotion....only to end up putting in 50 hours and 30 quests before I get promoted.  We made these changes to stop OOC circles, not to impede character progression.  OOC circles died off when our pbase shrunk 75%....but the character progression only got even harder. I have been saying it for 10 years. We have to stop the immortal gatekeeping or people simply will not want to put in the time. 

[Mmm Coffee]

When people talk about this-and-that taking a long time or requiring IMM-approval.....why is that a roadblock to playing your character?  If you have been at pinn for two days waiting on a cabal induction, you probably have a lot to do in prep for warfare, or quests, etc.  If you are waiting a week for a qthing - again, there is stuff you can do.  Farm gold, consumables, talk to people and generate RP points, train, do low-level PK if you're sitting at 30.  You have to know prior to even rolling the q-thing that you are going to put a bit of time in.  Man my first undead took like 6 weeks for approval back around 2008.  My last qthing (psi) took about 10 days and 40ish RP points.  But I didn't mope around at 50 as a BMG waiting to get Psi.  I went to demon pit, I dueled Warmasters, I went on PvE trips with people.  I just don't get this attitude that there's nothing you can do because your character isn't advancing fast enough.

[egreir]

I don't think anyone in this post has said there's nothing else to do while waiting on an app or cabal promo?  And that's not the point. It's why should my character's progression be held back in a game by another human being?  Sure, we all agree E/L kind of a big deal and should require some imm involvement.  But T?

 

 

[Mmm Coffee]

But why does it matter so much?  Obviously T skills usually come with a pretty big PK edge.  I don't see a reason that should be automatic.

[the_nightmare]

13 minutes ago, Mmm Coffee said:

When people talk about this-and-that taking a long time or requiring IMM-approval.....why is that a roadblock to playing your character?  If you have been at pinn for two days waiting on a cabal induction, you probably have a lot to do in prep for warfare, or quests, etc.  If you are waiting a week for a qthing - again, there is stuff you can do.  Farm gold, consumables, talk to people and generate RP points, train, do low-level PK if you're sitting at 30.  You have to know prior to even rolling the q-thing that you are going to put a bit of time in.  Man my first undead took like 6 weeks for approval back around 2008.  My last qthing (psi) took about 10 days and 40ish RP points.  But I didn't mope around at 50 as a BMG waiting to get Psi.  I went to demon pit, I dueled Warmasters, I went on PvE trips with people.  I just don't get this attitude that there's nothing you can do because your character isn't advancing fast enough.

What I mean is that basically right now there is a huge limit on what you can achieve by yourself. You are very dependant on the current Immortal mood or even presence. When I played a warmster thief a back ago I remember Tongar was on a holiday so I had to wait two weeks to get (T). Do you think that this is normal? Some people want their character to progress and to feel rewarded for their efforts . This makes the game experience much more fun if you can achieve everything without somebody telling you do this or do that. This is very very strange game. Basically some of the time i feel that I am not playing a game but I am at work trying to please my boss in order to get my hands on something.

[egreir]

It matters because I am a player and I say it matters, I guess.  Might sound selfish, but it is my time I choose to invest in a game. Not that anyone ever seems to care when players leave and no one would miss me if I'm gone, but the facts that plenty of people don't play here anymore because they are tired of the gatekeeping.  No one is gonna make the staff change something they don't want to change, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue.

[Mmm Coffee]

But it's like a fraction of what it used to be.  That's all I'm saying.  The arguments today fall flat.  Once in a while you hit a scenario where your cabal IMM goes AFK or something falls through.  Pretty much if you want something and aren't a dick about it and show some RP towards it....you generally get it.

Edit: @egreir I understand the more you play, the more you will hit these scenarios.  And since you play a lot of toons, you probably experience it more than most.  But take that into perspective - most people don't put in the hours you do AFAIK.

[egreir]

Sure and I totally get that, I've had to dial back my expectations a lot over the years, but should the answer be "hey dont play our game as much?"