Israel vs Hezbollah

[Iyorvin]

It's been over two weeks now, suprised no one has actually brought this up. Those of you who have been following, what are your thoughts?

Personally, Hezbollah is a political party. They were VOTED into parliment in Lebenon by the people and hold a HUGE block of that parliment. I do not see how the Americans can labal it a terrorist group when they are an ELECTED(through DEMOCRACY) into many seats in parliment. Having said that, the general take on this is that it is Israel vs Hezbollah and not vs Lebenon. But Lebenon voted Hezbollah into parliment, which makes it a country supporting a so called 'terrorist' group. Now, I think there are three main organizations to be blamed here. The first is the Lebenon goverment because they didn't disarm Hezbollah like they were asked by the UN and G8 nations. Second, I blame the G8 and UN because they didn't do anything of the sort to HELP disarm them. Whether or not you believe Hezbollah a terrorist group(I don't), if the world community accepts them as a terrorist, and KNOW VERY well exactly where they are, why not deal with it? So they let him go, and he is a saint to his people. And I can't really argue, he defends them with his life, feeds them, provides medical care, and even tries to rescue his people from Israel; which started this all. Israel still holds THOUSANDS of people of Lebenon, most who have not even held a trial, but Israel is backed by the States and has been allowed to do this for twenty years, since 84 when Israel occupied Lebenon.

I don't know, whether you agree with one side or the other, but I think it's complete crap that diplomacy wasn't tried first, and that it was sluffed off as not negotiating with terrorists. Now there is only two countries in the entire world right now who don't want a cease fire, the United States and Israel. This is a perfect situation of the affects of propaganda, on BOTH sides.

Peace,

[Crypticant]

I personally don't care about that whole situation. I think the US shouldn't get involved in other people's problems. Our meddling in foregin affairs is what has lead to these active terrorist cells. Like they always say, the US creates its own worst enemies. I think we should just pull all forces back, and worry about our own damn soil instead of everyone else's.

[Designated_Driver]

Hey now, Crypti. There is no "US" in Oil.

[Lethereal]

No, but there is an "I" - just ask Bush...

[Celerity]

It has probably been avoided because this topic brings out a lot of political/religious/ideology bad blood between people. My 'simple' opinion is that Israel should not have been created in the first place. Furthermore, most of these types of problems would be solved if they used real cultural borders instead of the nice straight line imperial system borders.

[Crypticant]

I tend to agree about the creation of Israel, however, you cannot unfire a bullet. What's done is done, however, I fail to see why Israeli->Palestinian->Syrian->Iranian->Lebanese problems are ours now. Oil? Sure, I get that. I also get that the US is one of the largest single countries in the world, with vast oil reserves in Alaska and Texas. I also get that we are among the leading innovators in technological advancements. Sure, it was all good when oil was cheap. Guess what, it ain't cheap anymore, so let's move on. With the hundreds of billions of dollars we have spent thus far on war in the Middle East, I'm pretty sure we could have built some high output nuclear reactors here, and be well on our way to "green" cars. Give me 600 billion. I'll show you what I can do.

Brazil would be a great model to follow. They have no foreign imports of fossil fuels, due to the fact that they can fully produce their own biofuels. Way to go, Brazil!

[Malchaeius]

I bet that this thread will go perhaps 3 or 4 pages before someone spouts something ignorant and the thread is locked. This time, someone will be banned too.

I am genuinely hoping that I will be proven wrong.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

3 or 4 pages? pretty optimistic, don't you think?

and i ain't touching this topic with a 10 ft. pole.

[Ex-D&Der]

I just can't see how Israel has the right to bombard another sovereign state. In this case it can't even be argued that the state isn't a democracy. And the way the U.S. is allowing them to do it, with just the caveat that there not be too many civilian casualties, is a travesty. If there are terrorists operating within Lebanon against Israel, Israel has to negotiate with the government of Lebanon for their capture--or go to the UN. And their response has been so disproportionate, with so much of the country being bombed, and so many people being killed, it's truly heartbreaking.

[Crypticant]

And the way the U.S. is allowing them to do it

Why is it the US's responsibility to stop an attack? Seems like a double standard to me. US gets involved in a war to stop terrorist attacks, world mocks the US for being the "world police", and wonders why we keep sticking our nose into the world's problems. US doesn't get involved in a conflict between two nations, and everyone wonders why the US doesn't get involved.

Odd.

[Ex-D&Der]

The US is a close ally of Israel, and for weeks was giving approval to what Israel was doing by saying "Israel has a right to defend itself." Not so much a question of stopping Israel as no longer giving this kind of approval, and instead urging it to cease.

[Warpnow]

While its not the USs responsibility to stop it, we should make it clear that behavior like that will not merit further cooperation between our countries.

[Pali]

While its not the USs responsibility to stop it' date=' we should make it clear that behavior like that will not merit further cooperation between our countries.[/quote']

Yes, but a country that invaded Afghanistan and forced a new government into place (badly, I might add) because of the attack of a terrorist group really has no right to tell Israel to not fire back at a group that is launching something around 100 rockets a day into Israel.

[CruelEdict]

Let me just say that Israel won't be condemned in America for its actions because its leadership is itself staunchly pro-Israel / Zionist. Israel could set out baby-eating expeditions into Syria and Iran and the US would just praise their "right" to "defend" themselves.

This is, as many are saying, the start of the "Third World War", though it won't be the same as the past conventional wars, but it will closely tied to a possible economic breakdown due to America's absolutely ridiculous banking system and various other economic policies.

These events so nearly mirror those of the summer of 1914. Quite interesting. I just hope that for the best interests of my people that this entire conflict does create an environment free of the trappings of consumerism and "comfort" and gets people snapped violently from their ignorant bliss.

[Celerity]

Coming from a strong banking background..I'd actually like to hear about this 'ridiculous' banking system we have here.

[Crypticant]

Heh, I already served my time in the military. Sorry, guys, I guess it's up to you.

[CruelEdict]

Specifically, I address the Federal Reserve Bank - it is a joke. No fiat money system can survive long, anyhow. Our current economy is seeing interest rates that would fall into the negatives if inflation was factored in and dare we get into the socio-economic problems here? Immigration, outsourcing, gross dissatisfaction, high unrecorded unemployment, and a non-industrialized economy all hurt us deeply and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I may not be wholly versed on the ways of the American economy, but from what I know it is ridiculous.

Coming from a strong banking background..I'd actually like to hear about this 'ridiculous' banking system we have here.

[Ex-D&Der]

Unfortunately you have a point Pali. But the fact that this would be a double-standard doesn't change what would be right for the U.S. to do at this point. Moreover, the invasion of Afghanistan was approved by the UN. It's more the invasion of Iraq where the hypocrisy would come in. But I was opposed to that, so I have a clear conscience when I urge the U.S. not to support Israel in this.

[Chayesh]

I think Israel has the right to "bombard another sovereign nation" who launches rockets into Israel and kidnaps and kills its soldiers. Last I checked, that's called self-defense.

[Warpnow]

Bombing Civillian space is NEVER acceptable in my book. A war is between militaries, any country that resorts to attacking residential areas will never earn my support.

The US did bomb residential areas during their invasion of Iraq, it was wrong. I was against it.

The USs position then does NOT change what is right now. It does not make other evils okay.

As far as I'm concerned any country that resorts to bombing of Residential areas is subject to the relinquishing of control of the entirety of its goverment and the disarming of its entire military. I strongly support that the UN be built up with a world Army to keep things like this under control.

[Ex-D&Der]

I think Israel has the right to "bombard another sovereign nation" who launches rockets into Israel and kidnaps and kills its soldiers. Last I checked' date=' that's called self-defense.[/quote']

That would be true if it were Lebanon that was attacking Israel--it's not. It's a terrorist group inside Lebanon.

[CruelEdict]

The only problem is that the circumstances of the "kidnappings" are highly suspect. What we are told and what is fact often differ. From what I remember, they were captured in Lebanon, but I would need to dig up a source to back that up 100%. Still, it stands that our media is hellbent on keeping us loaded up on lies and falsehood - keeping us docile as they commit genocide at home and pillaging abroad.

I think Israel has the right to "bombard another sovereign nation" who launches rockets into Israel and kidnaps and kills its soldiers. Last I checked' date=' that's called self-defense.[/quote']

[WarriorCleric]

Sometimes people just have to kill each other. This is not the first time violence has reared up in the middle east, and it won't be the last. Every nation in the world has pitched in it's two cents about what's going on, and none of it has helped anyway. Diplomacy has been tried, over and over, and it doesn't work. Why? Because neither side will let it. This is something that the area may just have to work out on there own. All of you can live in the idealistic world you create in your heads, I'll live in the real one. I am not happy with it, but I accept it.

And if this is going to turn into a 'lets piss on the US' thread, or a 'Let's be biggoted knobs' thread, I place good money on me being the one that gets the ban.

WC

[Ex-D&Der]

Well they're kind of two separate questions, what should happen and what will happen. I think it's worth it to anwer the first even if the answer to the second is different.

[Warpnow]

Maybe we should start a pool?

I, personally, don't think we should be involved. And that means severing our relations with Israel, which down here in the south is tantamount to blasphemy because they're all convinced Israel is "god's land" and must be protected.