Israel vs Hezbollah

[Crypticant]

Bombing Civillian space is NEVER acceptable in my book. A war is between militaries, any country that resorts to attacking residential areas will never earn my support.

Hezbollah hides out inside residential areas, covering their Katushya rocket trucks with tarps, and wearing civilian clothes so as to be able to fire and attack blend in with the other civilians. Much is the same in Iraq.

If they don't want civilians to be attacked, they should not cause their enemy to direct their fire on civilian areas.

[CruelEdict]

...OR! Instead, Israel can avoid attacking other nations altogether. Though that would be counter-productive to creating "Greater Israel", if that so be their goal. At the least, castrating their Arab/Persian neighbors won't happen without the bloodshed of non-Israelis (which, I must add they view as less valuable than even the fingernail of a Jew).

Hezbollah hides out inside residential areas, covering their Katushya rocket trucks with tarps, and wearing civilian clothes so as to be able to fire and attack blend in with the other civilians. Much is the same in Iraq.

If they don't want civilians to be attacked, they should not cause their enemy to direct their fire on civilian areas.

[WarriorCleric]

Alright, I've got an idea!

I do believe someone from this community had a good idea, please don't make me say his name after giving him a compliment, and started a website as a project of some kind revolving around discussions like this.

WC

[Nekky]

I think Israel has the right to "bombard another sovereign nation" who launches rockets into Israel and kidnaps and kills its soldiers. Last I checked' date=' that's called self-defense.[/quote']

Would Lebanon then have the right to bombard a nation who fires tactical strikes from helicopter gunships, launches cluster bombs on civilian targets, and has a significant amount of missile fire to account for itself? Lebanese soldiers have been captured and killed by Israeli troops as well.

I am not really either way on the subject. But just as many Lebanese have been killed by Israelies as vice versa, and if Lebanon invaded Israel it would most likely be branded an 'Act of Arabic Terrorism' rather than 'Self Defence'.

[Iyorvin]

Hezbollah hides out inside residential areas, covering their Katushya rocket trucks with tarps, and wearing civilian clothes so as to be able to fire and attack blend in with the other civilians. Much is the same in Iraq.

If they don't want civilians to be attacked, they should not cause their enemy to direct their fire on civilian areas.

To Crypticant: This is another one of those falsities. Hezbollah is using the mountains not the cities. The groups in the cities are for the MOST part there to help THEIR citizens. Look up the bombing of Qana.

To Chayesh: Israel has a right to defend itself yes, but so does Lebenon. As I stated in my origional post, tens of thousands of Lebenon's soldiers are still being held from the early 80's, most of them without Trial. That is NOT democracy, and the UNITED STATES is backing this treatment.

To Ex-DnDer: Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by most of the DEMOCRATIC community. However, in the Arab countries it is hailed as a saint organization. 1. It was ELECTED into parliment in Lebenon. 2. It has provided food/shelter/health care for the citizens of Lebenon where no other country was willing to offer aid.

Now my point is this, it is propaganda. Watch Arab television stations and you'll see what I mean. Everyone believes they are right. There is no one to blame but the United Nations as a whole. Hezbollah would serve NO purpose if the world would have taken care of Lebenon after Syria pulled out 6 years ago.

TO WC: The middle east hasn't always been like this. After World War 2 and the situation the Jews went through(whether it is all true or not), the world(mainly the states) GAVE Israel SACRED land in the middle of the Arab nations. Look up Israel history, they didn't even exist until 1948, before that their former land had all been overran and conquored hundreds of years before. In retrospect it would be like the world forcing the United States to give the Indians back their conquored land.

[CruelEdict]

Except there is proof that Europeans may have been here first (in America), but I don't want to digress too much. Just figured I would toss that out there for people to chew on, as it is a rather new discovery.

To Crypticant: This is another one of those falsities. Hezbollah is using the mountains not the cities. The groups in the cities are for the MOST part there to help THEIR citizens. Look up the bombing of Qana.

To Chayesh: Israel has a right to defend itself yes, but so does Lebenon. As I stated in my origional post, tens of thousands of Lebenon's soldiers are still being held from the early 80's, most of them without Trial. That is NOT democracy, and the UNITED STATES is backing this treatment.

To Ex-DnDer: Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by most of the DEMOCRATIC community. However, in the Arab countries it is hailed as a saint organization. 1. It was ELECTED into parliment in Lebenon. 2. It has provided food/shelter/health care for the citizens of Lebenon where no other country was willing to offer aid.

Now my point is this, it is propaganda. Watch Arab television stations and you'll see what I mean. Everyone believes they are right. There is no one to blame but the United Nations as a whole. Hezbollah would serve NO purpose if the world would have taken care of Lebenon after Syria pulled out 6 years ago.

TO WC: The middle east hasn't always been like this. After World War 2 and the situation the Jews went through(whether it is all true or not), the world(mainly the states) GAVE Israel SACRED land in the middle of the Arab nations. Look up Israel history, they didn't even exist until 1948, before that their former land had all been overran and conquored hundreds of years before. In retrospect it would be like the world forcing the United States to give the Indians back their conquored land.

[Crypticant]

To Crypticant: This is another one of those falsities. Hezbollah is using the mountains not the cities. The groups in the cities are for the MOST part there to help THEIR citizens. Look up the bombing of Qana.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

[Iyorvin]

Oh, and to the WW3 comment. A few reasons I don't agree with this. First off, the G8 nations probably won't involve themselves in this unless Syria or Iran actually get involved, which doesn't seem likely. Their citizens want it, but their leaders know better. Last war with Syria and Israel, Syria lost over 100 jets to Israel's 0. America will back Israel no MATTER what. Phosphorous bombs, bombing citizens targets, UN outposts(after been warned 6 times they were getting too close), and the States will just say hey, Hezbollah troops were hiding near those targets. Yeah........come off it. If there is gonna be a WW3, I think the United States is going to be in for a ROUGH time with their foreign relations.

[Iyorvin]

Sorry Crypt, 1. I wasn't completely disagreeing. They are of course doing this. But 2. I am saying that they are using that same excuse for EVERY war crime they are committing. The UN outpost, Qana, etc. Look up those incidents, especially Qana-which sparked a 48 hour cessation of hostilities from Israel(air wise anyway).

PS- I hope you are not using Fox news or Fox affiliates for your sources. Very VERY biased.

[Iyorvin]

Except there is proof that Europeans may have been here first (in America)' date=' but I don't want to digress too much. Just figured I would toss that out there for people to chew on, as it is a rather new discovery.[/quote']

That's all in well, but that doesn't mean they claimed it. It was native land. America fought for their land, and earned it. Would you let some one take away your great country now? After the world realizes that you took some one elses land? No, hell no you wouldn't. This is the spark in the Middle East, America stole land from other countries and gave it to Israel.

[Balgashang]

Didn't read all this thread, don't have the time tonight, but I'm pro-Israel. They've had to deal with this bs for years, it comes down to, in my opinion, extremists on both sides. Few rotten apples spoil the barrel. As a side note, I would have enlisted myself, but I got shot down the three times I tried, smoked my asvab with 97 for my gt, I got heart problems I couldn't get a waiver for, had the heart condition before I ever picked up a cigertte, joint, etc. or drank heavily. :shrugs: Will read this more in depth and respond on this tomorrow after work.

[CruelEdict]

The Lavon Affair

The Attack on the USS Liberty

I won't support American foreign policy towards what I deem a terrorist nation. Not that I oppose a solidly ethnic nation, I do oppose their involvement in the American Gov't, banking, and media.

Of course, I have a rather overall isolationist, anti-Global stance.

@Iyorvin (on WW3) - believe me, I have watched the US push for war more and more and more with Iran and possibly Syria as well. Israel attacking Lebanon will only further this - as I said, it is like the summer of 1914. To aid Syria, Iran will cross Iraq, which would lead to a war with the US. Iran has vowed to aid Syria if attacked and Israel has one goal in mind: securing the Middle East for its own people (and the creation of Greater Israel). World War III has started, but because of 4GW and "terrorism", things are not so simple. The disparity in nations coming into conflict in the Middle East is startling. The United States outweighs the enemies of Israel very much so, but Iran has an estwhile ally in Russia and China, which creates a broader conflict that may flare up (such as China seizing the moment to take Taiwan while we are distracted in Iran, etc).

@Iyorvin (on Indians) - The "Native" Americans, or Amerinds, brought bows and arrows to a gun fight. We did what they were doing, just better. They would battle each other (tribe on tribe warfare) for lands and resources, we just did it better. I haven't any remorse for my ancestors settling this wild nation and bring to it European civilization. Because of the type of society in America before extensive British colonization, it is hard to compare it to our current nation being invaded and colonized. We are a single nation unified by law (though socially and morally depraved) - a claim that does not hold up for Amerinds. They were just scattered groups without technical territorial claims.

Didn't read all this thread' date=' don't have the time tonight, but I'm pro-Israel. They've had to deal with this bs for years, it comes down to, in my opinion, extremists on both sides. Few rotten apples spoil the barrel. As a side note, I would have enlisted myself, but I got shot down the three times I tried, smoked my asvab with 97 for my gt, I got heart problems I couldn't get a waiver for, had the heart condition before I ever picked up a cigertte, joint, etc. or drank heavily. :shrugs: Will read this more in depth and respond on this tomorrow after work.[/quote']

[Iyorvin]

WW3: I see your point, and it is even said in Revelations that Russia will ally with Iran and bring about WW3. However, I just don't think it will happen. I think the countries will simply be bought out. I dont' think China will risk losing their power, as they WILL be the next super power of this century, along side India. But maybe you're right, maybe the American pride will bring about this war(no offense, and I dont' mean all of you, but you are by far the MOST proud nation; and perhaps for logical reasons as well). Syria just ordered their troops to raise readiness as well, and Syria is poor and going nowhere, they may just force a fight to draw in Iran and hope to come out of this with some loot . Good points though, I like the ones you made about WW3.

P.S. - If you believe in revelations 2 billion are supposed to die, meaning nuclear war, unless you can think of another way 2 billion will die. I suppose much famine, but I just can't see how any nation could launch a nuclear strike after the image of the last still burnt into our minds and hearts.

[CruelEdict]

Well, I study politics and history, so I have been watching events unfold for the last 2 years (well, since 9/11, but I have grown much since then). Now, I am a Deist, so Revelations simply hold no water to me, no offense. I was just reading on how Serbia had almost wholly agreed to Austria-Hungary's terms per their ultimatum, yet they had readied and were more than willing to just march on to war.

Of course, American involvement will be dictated by one of two events: Israeli attacks on Syria and a subsequent Iranian action (or any possible event linking Syria/Lebanon/Iran via some "Terrorist" plot, etc)

The other option: a major American economic meltdown. This is on its way anyhow and cannot be stopped. As I stated already, ridiculous American domestic policy and the costs of their foreign policy will tear this nation to pieces. I have equated America to friends as a Zombie -- It died a long time ago, but some unknown force is keeping it shambling around despite the worms chewing up its brains.

If we are embroiled in Iran/Syria, China risks nothing to invade Taiwan. They not only have a potent military, but they can simply flood our market with the American dollar in which they have invested (as have most nations, which is one of the few things floating our pathetic economy currently) would be enough to send our nation grinding to a halt.

It may be 5 years off, perhaps even 10 years off, but we are a train set upon our tracks making good steam towards oblivion. Of course, this doesn't even touch on the Race aspects of America, which are about as unstable as a nation can muster (despite the medias weak attempts to disguise this).

WW3: I see your point, and it is even said in Revelations that Russia will ally with Iran and bring about WW3. However, I just don't think it will happen. I think the countries will simply be bought out. I dont' think China will risk losing their power, as they WILL be the next super power of this century, along side India. But maybe you're right, maybe the American pride will bring about this war(no offense, and I dont' mean all of you, but you are by far the MOST proud nation; and perhaps for logical reasons as well). Syria just ordered their troops to raise readiness as well, and Syria is poor and going nowhere, they may just force a fight to draw in Iran and hope to come out of this with some loot . Good points though, I like the ones you made about WW3.

P.S. - If you believe in revelations 2 billion are supposed to die, meaning nuclear war, unless you can think of another way 2 billion will die. I suppose much famine, but I just can't see how any nation could launch a nuclear strike after the image of the last still burnt into our minds and hearts.

[Iyorvin]

Well, between the Revelations, Nostradamus, and the plainly visable events that can unravel, it's hard to pass off WW3 right now. Nostradamus also claims China will cross into Turkey and France. If China and Saudi Arabia pull out their investments in America your economy would lose what, 15% of its total worth?

[CruelEdict]

Well, Revelations and Nostradamus aside, the sheer ability of history to repeat itself and the clear signs of war on the horizon, we are due for something - depression or war, but most likely both and in that order!

Well' date=' between the Revelations, Nostradamus, and the plainly visable events that can unravel, it's hard to pass off WW3 right now. Nostradamus also claims China will cross into Turkey and France. If China and Saudi Arabia pull out their investments in America your economy would lose what, 15% of its total worth?[/quote']

[goldbond]

some of the points tindal brought up earlier are valid ones from what i've seen in print, video, and radio, especially regarding fiat currency and the fact that to print our paper money our government must incur debt. this debt is then passed on to the people. china is about the become the world's #1 industrialized nation in terms of production capacity. the western world (loosely north and south america and western europe. loosely..) still has a slight "intellectual" or "technological" edge over china and india, but this is right now almost at parity and i think will be finished within 10 years.

in the meantime we are de-industrializing. we have been for roughly 15-20 years now. once a heavy industry site is closed down, it will not be re-opening. you cannot just turn the power back on and replace a few fuses. that facility, that equipment, and those personnel are gone forever. the only reason that china, saudi arabia, japan, and a couple other nations that hold significant blocks of our debt to bolster their own currency havent pulled out yet is because we're still rich enough to buy their products for right now and b/c their own currencies are tied to the amount of U.S. debt they purchase. these regions will cash in when our debt can no longer be sustained and hidden from the world markets.

this moment will be, i fear, horror for most societies of the west. because the U.S. economy cannot implode without taking the UK, western and central europe, and latin america with it. and yeah i know some latin american countries are invested already with China and the "East", but the whole continent will feel it as well.

[Celerity]

On the PRC invading Taiwan note..if the U.S. military was distracted by some war somewhere else, and put up no resistance to PRC's invasion to Taiwan, the PRC would still have MUCH, MUCH to lose by invading Taiwan. For the time being, the PRC will be in support of the U.S.'s actions, due to the U.S.'s aid in the PRC's own internal problems. It will not compromise that, and MANY other relations, to reach in and 'snag' Taiwan if given the opprotunity.

As for economic meltdown, the PRC is much, much closer than America is. There are hundreds of sites and articles to read about this.

With that said, I'd like to say that I have much faith in the PRC's ability to survive. The PRC is currently splintering off into something like 9 different ways, and the regime has held the country together, despite THOUSANDS of riots(not disputes/disobedience) a year. The question with the PRC has not become whether or not it will collapse, but whether that collapse will have a hard or soft landing. However, there are as many timescales to this as there are people researching it.

Bottom line: The PRC's likelihood to invade Taiwan is about the same as Texas's likelihood to adopt a social globalization outlook. Or to become staunchly democrat, for that matter.

[goldbond]

pt 2:

to put Israel v HizbAllah in perspective to pt 1 .... it's simply the fact that our news keeps telling us that "WWW3" is coming. and here is something about the media now that wasnt exactly the case before television: the "news" is not an innocent regional organization anymore. while the old media was sensationalist and had its flaws, modern media is very, very, very much more sophisticated with propaganda methods both in production and content. and it is entwined with organizational interest and effectiveness far beyond what people imagine. this is why when they keep running WWW3 commentary and continually tell us that we need to support Israel and possibly go into Syria and bring it to Iran, i take it very seriously. because the major news networks are actually telling us what to feel and think and prepare its audience. because this is probably what is going to be happening in some form.

and to put it all into perspective, it makes total sense now that the patriot acts were passed, eminent domain laws have been radicalized, police powers have also been radicalized. because when all of this goes down a lot of people arent going to be living so well here anymore. in fact some people may be hungry and other things. i just feel that things are going to be rather viscious on a day to day level, and some people in the government know that. so when it happens, things like personal property, speech, and rights will already be sidestepped as the federal government grows.

[Ex-D&Der]

Iyorvin:

I don't know if the term "terrorist" means anything, but the point is that Hezbollah is a group with an organizational structure separate from that of the Lebanese state. It is this group that has attacked Israel, not Lebanon. In fact the Lebanese government has so far stepped aside and allowed Israel to attack without any military action.

[TheNewGuy]

It is sad that civilians suffer, but I fully support the israeli's right to defend themselves. they do defend. and only that. they have firepower to turn lebanon to a smoking hole in the ground. they could have done that whenever they wished, if they were on the offence. but they only defend themselves.

if iran, syria, hamas, hezbollah, al quaida had that firepower, israel would have been a smoking hole in the ground long ago. I sure hope iran never gets their nukes.

israel aims for military goals when they attack. sure, miss some times, and it is terrible when civilians die. but the hezbollah AIMS for the resitential areas with their missiles.

[CruelEdict]

Now that is the least accurate post so far. Israel went on the offensive, because diplomacy was ignored in favor of a military action. Diplomacy in this day and age tends to be the first step, which was barely offered to Lebanon. Hezbollah is great example of 4GW, where national boundaries no longer contain ideological groups.

Israel is the danger in that region - look at thier past acts. I already stated the big two, not to mention out of their many wars, somewhere near half they were the aggressor. They also haven't signed any non-proliferation treaties, in which their neighbors all have, yet they are the ones with nuclear weapons. Funny, isn't it?

Also, Al Queda, or however one chooses to spell it, is far from a danger. If anything it is just a name to which Mossad and the CIA operate.

As for Hezbollah lobbing missiles into civilian territory - they are just responding in kind. The Israelis have stated clearly they hold no value for the life of non-Jews -- hell, read the Talmud for a clear instance of the typical Jewish supremacist world view that is common among Israel's Orthodox ruling class. Oh, also they were the ones who violated the Geneva Convention first - so who can say Hezbollah is in the wrong for responding to such greivous acts?

It is sad that civilians suffer, but I fully support the israeli's right to defend themselves. they do defend. and only that. they have firepower to turn lebanon to a smoking hole in the ground. they could have done that whenever they wished, if they were on the offence. but they only defend themselves.

if iran, syria, hamas, hezbollah, al quaida had that firepower, israel would have been a smoking hole in the ground long ago. I sure hope iran never gets their nukes.

israel aims for military goals when they attack. sure, miss some times, and it is terrible when civilians die. but the hezbollah AIMS for the resitential areas with their missiles.

[Crypticant]

it's simply the fact that our news keeps telling us that "WWW3" is coming

Man, I'm still trying to get used to Web 2.0.

[EyeSeeU]

-In his arrogance man thinks he is capable of destroying nature-

I really am getting sick an tired of all bullmalarky concerning war and WW3, I really can't wait till mother teaches us all how to swim.

[TheNewGuy]

no. israel get picked on all the time. sometimes they get fed up with it and strikes back.

the last time the world got mad at them was when they built the huge wall. it ended with decreasing suicide bombings to almost nothing in the israeli cities. it actually worked.

and the orthodox jews are a minority. since israel is a democracy, they don't rule israel.