Marcella SYNDICATE vs Haexis WARMASTER

@Trick, no threats, stating a fact. I did provide the logs which resulted in a few tone-downs. I refused to log on until it was fixed and my instruments were changed (3 weeks or so). Calling bards as they are now the most OP class in the game is ridiculous. Your damange output is so low that against heavy melees you will not even have time to debuff them before you need to run for the hills (unless they are so nice to let you sleep them). Try to play one without a bloodguard some time.

@ML if you refuse to poison yourself and are caught with neither poison nor sanc, you'll be dead vs most sleep classes (and even vs quite a few others). I'd have killed you with a necro far more easily under the same circumstances. Powerchord alone does nothing. So you can't flee for one to two ticks while you beat the shit out of the bard (this happens regularly even when I have some debuffs landed). So what. You died bc you allowed me to sleep you, fully spell you up and THEN powerchord you. 

Marcy

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

Am I the only one that never really had a problem with bards? I have taken more unavoidable deaths to bodyslam, bash, rush, and thrust than I ever did to a bard. The only thing that seems hopeless vs a bard is the single for mana sing for hp loop. Beyond that they are necros without pets, dks without charm etc.

21 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

Am I the only one that never really had a problem with bards? I have taken more unavoidable deaths to bodyslam, bash, rush, and thrust than I ever did to a bard. The only thing that seems hopeless vs a bard is the single for mana sing for hp loop. Beyond that they are necros without pets, dks without charm etc.

This might be your issue. I played a small size ranger at least 10 months against all sorts of laggers (ogre war, crusader, vampire, blood guards galore) and never once got laglocked to death. I did however die twice to a rage mechanic that offers no counterplay until I learned to avoid it entirely.

58 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

@ML if you refuse to poison yourself and are caught with neither poison nor sanc, you'll be dead vs most sleep classes (and even vs quite a few others). I'd have killed you with a necro far more easily under the same circumstances. Powerchord alone does nothing. So you can't flee for one to two ticks while you beat the shit out of the bard (this happens regularly even when I have some debuffs landed). So what. You died bc you allowed me to sleep you, fully spell you up and THEN powerchord you.

A necromancer would not have slept me. I was wielding a 2h weapon. No other combo in the game would have outright 100-0 me if they caught me without sanc. Not one.

I caught you at least 2 times without sanc in our hour long fight, it was not even close to lethal for you. That's my point, sure your combo is not a guaranteed kill everytime but when shit lines up there is no counterplay. And you have relatively very very low risk considering the reward you are capable of getting when it all lines up. What is my incentive to even fight you? I was ready for you every time for 59 minutes and won most exchanges but you can simply veil me and walk away, try again, then I make one error and boom, game over. EZ Clap. No other combo woulda done that, none.

edit: even if somehow a a necro slept me, or a thief caught me, the odds of them doing 1200+ dmg before I can flee is very low. It took you almost the entire 2 ticks to kill me unsanced, it was like 13 rounds iirc. A necro can only guarantee a kill when they are in an area that has a good summon location, and there is always a chance to flee in most cases unless a locked door.

14 minutes ago, Twinblades713 said:

This might be your issue. I played a small size ranger at least 10 months against all sorts of laggers (ogre war, crusader, vampire, blood guards galore) and never once got laglocked to death. I did however die twice to a rage mechanic that offers no counterplay until I learned to avoid it entirely.

Breath saves, and orbs of recall is all I did

4 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

Breath saves, and orbs of recall is all I did

Saves literally didn’t matter at one point not very long ago, and try those blind. I mean I guess if you’re prepping to flee from the beginning, that’s a good way to win a fight. But I agree, once I stopped trying to win and started trying to merely survive, I did better.

Dissonance lag + the rage vogue + ember/paralyze on weapon + veil song + cabal skills. Are there any other classes have so many ways to prevent you from getting out of combat? If not then it sounds like this may be the greatest source of the problem which is driving people crazy.

3 hours ago, Anonymous said:

@Trick, no threats, stating a fact. I did provide the logs which resulted in a few tone-downs. I refused to log on until it was fixed and my instruments were changed (3 weeks or so). Calling bards as they are now the most OP class in the game is ridiculous. Your damange output is so low that against heavy melees you will not even have time to debuff them before you need to run for the hills (unless they are so nice to let you sleep them). Try to play one without a bloodguard some time.

@ML if you refuse to poison yourself and are caught with neither poison nor sanc, you'll be dead vs most sleep classes (and even vs quite a few others). I'd have killed you with a necro far more easily under the same circumstances. Powerchord alone does nothing. So you can't flee for one to two ticks while you beat the shit out of the bard (this happens regularly even when I have some debuffs landed). So what. You died bc you allowed me to sleep you, fully spell you up and THEN powerchord you. 

Marcy

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

Uh.. so, besides Belderon I had Taliscen(watcher avian), Illian(avian Uncaballed), and ilsurik(undead pandy), so I’m pretty sure I’ve played enough of them. I mean.. is anyone gonna really tell me I don’t have the hours on multiple different bard combos? Lol

I get you defending your class and saying it’s not a class issue, I do. But I can honestly say bards are, in my personal opinion, in an OP state and I don’t think it’s a matter of balancing their weapons. I think it’s poor class design and we’re trying bandaid fixes to address an issue with how the class functions. Bard instruments were/are strong, brawl, the three bardics, fires weapons, and songs. There was a time when the songs didn’t matter, yes they matter more so now, but still as Taliscen I bet I didn’t even NEED to use them. I promise you I can roll another bard and I will have the exact same results, in ANY cabal.(if you recall I’ve done three diff cabals).

No, you do not get it at all. I'm not defending the class I play. I actively helped to tone them. And it was not just weapons.

Some people may be happy to play something that is obviously imbalanced (when they outdamage a decked serk face to face). Play your bard now, and I am sure you will notice a difference. Also, only 2 maintains now, so if you want paralyze and blind, the instrument will not be nodisarm, you have to choose now. The + 10 hr dr -sv applies are fortunately also gone. I created an instrument with -30 sv spell to prove my point and posted that on prayer. What did you do to help balance the class? If they are still so out of balance, then why do you not help balance them? Make actual proposals instead of bashing my char, which is much, much weaker than any of your bards ever were, why don't you.

Thanks. 

Marcy

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

I have proposed a LOT of changes and even helped the Staff test out a lot of changes. I’m not bashing you. I’m stating facts regarding class balance, it just so happens you are playing that class. It’s not an anti-Marcella witch hunt. I am a big fan of your character and have been across a few of my chars. Im sorry if it’s coming across that way, I don’t mean for it to. I’ve been the focus of more than one witch hunt and it sucks. It’s not a character or player attack, but a class frustration for those losing.

Re tassin:

• dissonance lag: 1 round to target, 2 rounds to the bard,  change is already in that breaks your instruments after 3 or 4 times (need to pay attention to that more)

• powerchord: IF it lands, and that is a big IF, 0-1 ticks rage, which means nothing if you outdamage the bard in that time, there are still various means to get out. 

• cabal skills? No cabal skills provide lag or hinder them from fleeing. If you mean blinding, then yeah I suppose, but that can happen too if a syndi lagger lags you.

• if the instruments blinds and paralyzes, disarm it (2 maintains)

I'm not against toning Bards further IF it is needed. I just do not see that it is right now. I've never died to a bard since the changes came in.

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

Put your character name on anon posts or I will delete them.

^^

Marcy.

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

Both Trick and Marcella have provided logs for us to help tone the class. I do hope we get a few more to see if further toning is warranted. The log above does not really warrant it. It would also help immensely to have a few more bards running around. Any volunteers? 😉

Hmm. ;)

Don't really think my logs would make bards appear to need toned. Lol.

3 hours ago, Twinblades713 said:

Saves literally didn’t matter at one point not very long ago, and try those blind. I mean I guess if you’re prepping to flee from the beginning, that’s a good way to win a fight. But I agree, once I stopped trying to win and started trying to merely survive, I did better.

My primary goal is always survive.

I'll fight bards all day and post logs but I ain't playing one. That would defeat the purpose of trying to get them balanced because mine would be so bad.

On 5/26/2019 at 12:05 PM, Anonymous said:

Re tassin:

• dissonance lag: 1 round to target, 2 rounds to the bard,  change is already in that breaks your instruments after 3 or 4 times (need to pay attention to that more)

• powerchord: IF it lands, and that is a big IF, 0-1 ticks rage, which means nothing if you outdamage the bard in that time, there are still various means to get out. 

• cabal skills? No cabal skills provide lag or hinder them from fleeing. If you mean blinding, then yeah I suppose, but that can happen too if a syndi lagger lags you.

• if the instruments blinds and paralyzes, disarm it (2 maintains)

I'm not against toning Bards further IF it is needed. I just do not see that it is right now. I've never died to a bard since the changes came in.

Anonymous poster hash: 9d6f8...c60

Just trying to state what other players might be frustrated with. In the case of @Manual Labour its how Bards seem to have an easier chance of making the stars align to keep someone in combat when things are going there way. Thing is, the better players will always try to ensure those stars align no matter how hard they were intended not to be. Example being in the log above. Though spamming not one but two commands sure didn't help in his case here.

Now IMO powerchord + some type of blindness when you're winning still seems quite strong. How many rounds in a tick? Possibly double that to two ticks now. Now add in that the Bard is not lagged during that time and can resort to another form of lag or keeping the opponent blinded in some way. I don't know, just seems unusually long and more effective than what any other class is capable of. Now if Bards didn't have dirt kick, embers in there instruments, and couldn't join certain cabals that blind, then this might seem more fair to me, either that or the duration should be reduced to number of rounds rather than time. But again this is just my opinion.

@Manual Labour

Keeping someone in combat means nothing if they beat you up.

There are many counterplays - most players learned that way back against PSIs that had 10x the output of a silly bard.

Getting caught, locked in combat without sanc, without being able to flee will often result in your death. But many, many classes can do that to you. Against a bard you can at least input some commands.

I see nothing that makes it any different than getting caught by a vamp (even worse if he has a shadow), a zerker, a warrior, a necro, a BLM with certain anatomies, a ranger in certain cases, a thief, a ninja, a crusader, a dkn, a monk.... I can go on for quite a bit.

The idea here is to not get caught. If you get caught, that's your problem.

On the other point, being she can slip many times and get away, while you slip once and it's all over - BLMs are like that. They are the most versatile class out there, meaning they can counter everything. For that they pay with not being able to capitalize (much) when catching opponents with their guards down, although they can negate some of those downsides with their anatomies or with certain race/cabal combos. Bards on the other hand suffer from the same problems any hybrid does - giant laggers. Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses. If you don't like the pros/cons of a BLM and think those of a bard are much greater, then perhaps you should try a bard? It's how people roll usually. That's where the saying "If you think something is OP, roll it and roll the PB with it" comes from.

Only when you are playing the "OP combo" though, you face the difficulties it has to deal with. Often people find that the difficulties outweigh the benefits.

I personally find it strange that you've played some of the dumbest self-gimped combos ever to exist and done (relatively) well with them, but have problems with a BLM vs Bard battle.

Keep lying to yourself.

"any combo that catches you without sanc and you're dead"

this is completely untrue.

many combos catch you without sanc and have a good chance to kill you, yes. but vs any combo you mentioned there is also a good chance of escape and they have to work for the kill with some sort of chase.

Only the string bard can do it easily, effortlessly and with such certainly. It is 100% bullshit, if you fight someone long enough they are bound to slip up, so that's how easy we are making classes now? Just stay near them and eventually when they make a mistake you will get a free effortless kill, in the meantime you will have 0 risk of death yourself and all the tools needed to hover nearby until you get your free kill chance.