RP Point Reward - Echo

you think my post is BS, that's fine... I'm sure asking you to explain your reasons.

First of all, you said you agree with the idea, yet you argue. Why? Do you think neither of us is aware of the "abuses" even though they've been mentioned 4 or 5 times already?

Secondly, you say it can be abused. How exactly? You are going to emote that some kid pees on Zoichan's foot? Big deal. The real abuse here is people who will falsely report abuse, just to enforce a punishment of -150 RP to said character.

Thirdly, you say we've had people dedicate a lot of time to get qstuff just to abuse them. Please name a few characters that did so in the last five years? I can personally think of ONE. And he got handled pretty nicely.

Forth, if you think someone is going to spend 150 RP on a perk that allows him to EMOTE, just to abuse it, then you are obviously not playing the same game we do. That claim is just ludicrous.

Figth, the claim that such an ECHO will provide NOTHING in terms of RP, is arguable, to say the least, so please do not present it as a fact.

Sixth, the argument that something shouldn't be implemented because it can be abused, is the same like the argument that the government should spy on everyone just because they might commit a crime. Or that we shouldn't own guns because they can kill people.

And lastly, "everyone has an opinion and we should respect them" is one of the worst phrases to ever exist. One should NOT respect opinions that are foolish, especially opinions of those who REFUSE to open their mind and look at the facts from a non-biased point of view. Not just that, but one should FIGHT with all means against opinions that are harmful, and that's not just about FL. Hitler and the KKK also had an "opinion".

And that's why I called your post BS.

That being said....

The whole discussion here is "funny". We have a player who plays a very strong character, with VERY good RP, who is a TATTOED LEADER, with custom title, custom items and all sort of custom shit that are there to show that this character is WELL PLAYED both PK and RP wise. That this character is EPIC and a role model. So the player of this character comes on the forums and asks if he can spend a large part of his hard earned RP points not on something that will give him PK benefits, but on something that will help him ROLEPLAY. And suddenly people get worried that he MIGHT "abuse" this ability.

Let ME tell you what will ACTUALLY happen if such ability gets implemented.

Firstly, perhaps a single character will buy it. Perhaps not. If it gets bought, it will be by a character that is already very strong, has a necklace and at least 2-3 other edges, and still has hundreds of RP points.

Secondly, said character will use it to enrich the environment.

Thirdly, other EPIC characters will see him use it, either in real time or in logs. They will feel jealous. Just as they feel jealous when looking at Ekhurift's colorful items (even though said items are nothing more than restrung normal items and bring nothing PK wise).

Forth, because they feel jealous, they will spend their RP points in turn not on stuff that will get them PK advantages, but on stuff that will let them have this COOL factor too.

Lastly, who will win from this whole situation? Everyone, but mostly the not-so-skilled players, because 1) the strong characters who they are supposed to fight will not be spending their RP on PK benefits but on RP stuff, 2) because it will enrich the RP environment for EVERYONE, thus making it easier for even those who struggle with RP (who are usually those who also struggle with PK, most of the time) to get more RP points.

Abuse of this can be very very easily stopped by just putting a slightly different color to player echos.

If we REALLY feel like it, I'm sure it is also not much of a bother to let it get autologged.

I agree with Professor - however, as in the past, we really need to stop "not" applying changes because we think (or know) it might be abused in the future. Our ability to choose our own character names, our ability to RP what we want, and even our ability to switch between characters can all be abused in some way or another, but we have an IMM staff around for this reason.

 

As a player, I've always thought that as players, we should definitely be given the benefit of the doubt even if it could be abused, and if it is, the IMMs are there to stop it.

 

As an IMM, I'm more leaning toward what I previously though - the only difference is I know IMMs can't ALWAYS be around to make sure this abuse doesn't occur - BUT - we will figure it out one way or another via someone else's prayer post or via one of our mort chars witnessing it.

 

In ending, I don't think this is a bad idea.

Have we so little faith?

Merchant E abilities are different enough where they each have a use. However I discussion of Merchant E or L abilities would be againt the rules so I will simply say, remember that the Bazaar can add color to an item.

As to why there is no Merchant L, consider this: If there were a Merchant promoted to L it would have to be for considerable effort. Then a syndicate E could coup it and take it right away. Merchants arent PK oriented so couping for L is highly improbable. Given I have never seen this happen, the alternative is Merchants are immune to Coup (if thats true it should be in the help files because someone will eventually get really angry). So if a merchant gets L then it could be potentially a very long time before there is another Rat King because merchants are so rarely attacked.

Lets take the most recent example, Garacci passes on and then Haakon and Ekhurift are the two contenders for L. Ekhurift gets it, he continues doing his thing with more power backing him up.  Haakon will likely outlive Ekhurift because of their respective roles. Give the L to Haakon and Ekhurift is stuck at E until he either dies, gives up or coups Haakon.  In this case I think the correct choice was made.

So back to topic, in this case an E/L ability should be in the Bazaar because they are so rarely played and represented. In the case of Echo, I am pretty sure the spots nessessary to get that ability are uncontested. My personal oppinion is, dont make this publically available on the Bazaar until after the rework. And then only if its no longer a cabal thing.

However, I would not object if it was listed as something to apply for. Basically because then the staff has to sign off on who gets it. My only objection would be putting it on the Bazaar.

And lastly, "everyone has an opinion and we should respect them" is one of the worst phrases to ever exist. One should NOT respect opinions that are foolish, especially opinions of those who REFUSE to open their mind and look at the facts from a non-biased point of view. Not just that, but one should FIGHT with all means against opinions that are harmful, and that's not just about FL.

Reread what f0xx posted here. This is very important, and many people do not understand the concept. He is absolutely correct. These are words I will probably die by one day.

Few opinions are equally valid, and fewer yet have the correct rationale behind them. Disagreeing with a weak opinion is not disrespect to the speaker of that opinion. Instead, not correcting such an opinion is a disservice to all those who may read the topic, as silence typical implies tacit consent (not agreement), and would allow that invalid opinion to:

A: be justified in the mind of the one who gave it (nobody disagreed or strong-minded person A did not challenge me, therefore I am right)

B: eventually serve as evidence of the validity of the invalid opinion (This opinion has been repeated over time, therefore it is valid)

C: persuade those who don't have the knowledge to refute such an opinion (I wasn't sure, but you cleared up the topic for me, thanks!---meaning now two people have an invalid opinion)

D: dangerously, the invalid opinion may actually be implemented, to the detriment of everybody involved

E: provide evidence that the topic is not important (it was not commented on by the admin, therefore it is not important (this is why admin silence is a bad thing))

and so forth.

Topic at hand:

Echo has very little potential to be abused (about as much as emote does). Everything that relates to mechanics is already color-coded (damage, etc). Internal player mechanics cannot be affected at all (not going to mess with your prompt or current position). Everybody will know if the person has echo, so it won't be a surprise to begin with. I can see why it would be interesting for some people, although personally, it doesn't interest me much being just flavor text. You'd be very hard-pressed to find a single case of any player who abuses it. The worst that could be done is what the staff does all the time for cheap abuse of players. (i.g. echo You feel hungry. echo Somebody walks in;echo Somebody scans all around;echo Somebody walks west.)

Doesn't even require basic staff oversight.

Not even entry-level IMMs have echo.

That is more about providing a sense of progression (or rather hazing) in the staff ranks (I'm high rank and important because I have echo at 55) rather than a game risk. On one hand, if a staff member can't be trusted with a harmless mechanic, there are severe issues. On the other hand, if a staff member were to abuse something, echo would be a great place to catch it...before anything serious happened.

Strictly speaking, all staff should have all cosmetic RP abilities as they facilitate interaction with players...even more important at low staff ranks--who are supposed to be doing mostly that.

I believe you misinterpret my post, Celerity. I'll be sure to add a smiley face next time. 

I have yet to feel hazed by the other imms, Cel.

That's because they don't like you, obviously.

thats stockholm syndrome, Naruthiron. Come get a hug. And what Forsaken said as well

I had a hunch. 

I ain't getting that close to you, ID. You have cooties.