Quick Look: Ogre vs Giants + Minotaur

[Celerity]

Keep in mind that this is a first draft and I'm sure you'll point out all the stuff I've missed.

ogre: Max: Str: 24 Int: 19 Wis: 15 Dex: 18 Con: 24

+weapon dam

+hp/level

+hpgain

vuln magic

ogre roar

--

automaster fast healing;regeneration

all align/ethos

Marak hometown

large size

drunk talk

fire: Max: Str: 25 Int: 15 Wis: 15 Dex: 16 Con: 23

+weapon dam

+fire weapon prof

+charge dam

+bodyslam;bash dam

resist fire

resist weapon

vuln mental

vuln ice

--

automaster bash;enhanced damage;bodyslam;two handed

evil/any ethos

standard hometown

large size

storm: Max: Str: 23 Int: 17 Wis: 17 Dex: 16 Con: 22

*1.1 prof on water

resist weapon

resist lightning

vuln wood

vuln mental

--

automaster bash;enhanced damage;bodyslam;two handed

good/any ethos

standard hometown

large size

no boat

stone: Max: Str: 24 Int: 16 Wis: 16 Dex: 16 Con: 24

resist weapon

vuln mental

--

automaster bash;enhanced damage;bodyslam;two handed

neutral/any ethos

standard hometown

large size

boulder throw

mino: Max: Str: 23 Int: 17 Wis: 18 Dex: 17 Con: 22

+axe prof

dual wield all axes

superior charge

shield/weapon cleave bonus

--

neutral/chaotic only

standard hometown

large size

fire: Max: Str: 1 Int: -4 Wis: 0 Dex: -2 Con: -1 Total: -6

storm: Max: Str: -1 Int: -2 Wis: +2 Dex: -2 Con: -2 Total: -5

stone: Max: Str: 0 Int: -3 Wis: +1 Dex: -2 Con: 0 Total: -4

mino: Max: Str: -1 Int: -2 Wis: +3 Dex: -1 Con: -2 Total: -3

Since I am comparing ogres to giants+m, I adjusted the stats relative to ogre. We don't care how the giants+m compare to each other for this post. As you can see, ogres are superior in EVERY stat to giants+m except wisdom (fire has +1 str). These stats give ogres the starting advantage in this comparison.

Stats: Ogre (all but wisdom)

Let's talk about offense. It is clear because of +weapon dam and higher str/dex that ogres are superior to in pure offense to giants+m-fire. Since fire giants can compare, let's look at them more closely.

Ogre: +weapon dam +2 dex

Fire: +weapon dam +weapon prof +charge dam +bodyslam;bash dam +1 str

The weapon dam bonus is the same for fire and ogre, so that is negated. So, is fire weapon prof, charge dam, +1 str, and lag dam worth -2 dex in pure offense? Yes. While the ogre may strike more blows (+2 dex), the fire giant will considerably outdamage an ogre IF the fire giant is using a fire weapon. If the target has a vuln/resist, the fire loses prof advantage and it becomes +1 str against +2 dex. Thus, without a fire weapon, the ogre wins, but only barely due to more attacks. This allows the ogre more choices for weapons, but under ideal circumstances, the fire has more...firepower.

Dealing melee damage: Fire (assuming target has no vuln/resist)

Let's talk about defense. This is where things get a bit more complicated. First, let's talk about melee defense. This can be further broken down into avoiding damage and resisting damage. Once again, it is obvious (ogre: +hp +hpgain > giant: resist weapon(and fire/lightning)) that ogres are superior in resisting damage. One should note that since ogres receive an hp bonus that is only negated through magical damage, they effectively also have +resist weapon.

It is also clear that due to the dex advantage, ogres are superior in avoiding damage to stone/storm. Minotaurs and fires have prof advantage which lends strongly to defending. However, in minotaur's case, this only applies to axes which do not

defend well. Once again, it comes down to fire weapon prof against ogre +2 dex and ogre roar. If the fire can obtain a fire staff (most melee-defensive weapon) and the ogre does not roar off big damage, she will have the advantage. If not, the ogre will.

Now we need to gauge how important it is to resist melee damage and avoid damage. Because of the existance of unblockable damage, resisting melee damage is far more important than avoiding it. Also, since the avoiding damage is close between fire and ogre, and resistance is clear victory for ogre, there is no contest that ogres are superior in melee defense.

Resisting Damage: Ogre

Avoiding Damage: Ideally-Fire, Generally-Ogre

Melee Defense: Ogre

Now we should compare spell defense. This is a clear victory for minotaur, which has no vuln to magic. Let's see where ogres fall in the ranking. Ogres are vuln to all magic (translated as mental/mal/aff) and giants are vuln to mental (+ice for fires). Since ogres and giants are both vuln to mental, it is negated. Ogres are vuln to mal and aff, while giants are vuln to nothing (+fire ice). Since ogre hp bonus to roughly equal to aff vuln, aff vuln is negated for ogres. Let's see how this translates in damage:

Ogre hp 1500

Giant hp 1000 (2/3 ratio)

Spell base damage is 100. Ogre is hit for 150. Giant is hit for 100. Both lose 10% of total health.

So, in the end, ogres only suffer a mal vuln when compared to giants. While mals are easier to land on ogres, they do not do more damage, and so ogres have at least a partial resistance to mal. Fire giants have a further ice vuln, which moves them to the bottom.

Spell defense breakdown:

Mino (no vuln)

Stone/Storm (mental vuln)

Ogre (mental vuln and mal vuln and partial mal resistance)

Fire (mental vuln and partial aff vuln)

So let's sum up so far. There are two extremes in the competitors to ogre: fire and minotaur. Let us establish between fire and ogre first.

Fire: Deal/Block damage (ideally)

Ogre: Stats; Block damage (generally); resist damage (always)

Because of the value of resisting damage is typically great and that ogres can deal damage sometimes just as well, the ogre takes the cake so far. Now on to ogre vs minotaur:

Ogre: Deal/Block/Resist damage (always)

Mino: No mental vuln or mal vuln.

This comes down to a question of status bonus against pure offense/defense. Minotaurs can more easily keep their afflicted status clear (spells up, no mals, etc) but at a reduced offense/defense capability. Because the ogre has such a great defensive advantage, she can afford to take some status hits. This is also illustrated in the warrior vs berserker question.

Warriors have much greater offense/defense, while berserkers can inflict status changes (headbutt/haymaker). Since it is ultimately offense/defense that keeps you alive and allows you to kill, the ogre wins thus far.

The ogre wins in theory, but let's look at application:

Necro: All will be quickly dispelled, laglocked, and/or slept. Weapon resistance will help (resist or +hp) here.

Ogre: +weapon dam and greater dex are very important here. Mals will hurt more.

Fire: +weapon dam/fire prof are important if you can curse that weapon. Low dex will hurt.

Stone: Going through protection will help.

Storm: No fired weapons/wood will hurt here.

Mino: Not as easily slept/dispelled. Charge is nice, but unfortunately, zombies will do more damage comparatively.

Winner: Ogre. The ogre puts out more damage while physically (avoid/resist/laglock) defensive. More room if you "mess up".

All these races will die, but ogre a bit slower.

Invoker: All will be dispelled quickly.

Ogre: Firestorm will likely blind you. Ogre roar will really help you in this fight, and gives you a relative advantage.

Fire: Sayonara. Ice vuln means you take quite a bit more damage than everyone else.

Stone: Nothing.

Storm: Lightning resistance may help somewhat, and water +prof will beat tactical advantage.

Mino: Charge + harder to dispel, and axe means you will fair well.

Winner: Ogre. Assuming you can charge and the ogre doesn't roar, mino will do slightly better straight up. However, attrition

game beats the invoker, and the ogre beats the attrition game.

Blademaster: All have difficulty opening.

Ogre: Attrition advantage.

Fire: Strong melee, but blm's nearly unblockable ice will kill you fast.

Stone: Boulder throw might do something interesting here.

Storm: Fired weapons are needed against blms, and wood vuln hurts you big time. Using staves may be an issue also.

Mino: No physical resist and axes/charge won't help you here. Relative disadvantage.

Winner: Ogre. Blms, like invokers, are beat through attrition. Ogre wins that game.

Battlemage: Dispelled quickly.

Ogre: High hp will help a lot in this fight. You will be blinded easily. Reflective shield will smoke you.

Fire: Fire weapons are great here, and you resist bmg's offense well.

Stone: Nothing special.

Storm: Lack of fired weapons hurts you here.

Mino: Lack of physical resist puts you on the bottom of the pole here.

Winner: Fire. That high-dam, high prof magical fire damage will help you. Reflective field isn't so bad.

Thief, ranger, warrior, berserker, dark-knight, bard :

All do fairly equally well since these are short, laggable fights. Fire may kill faster, but also is at great risk because of ice vuln.

Winner: Ogre. More dex, high damage, and high survivability.

Shaman:

Ogre: Malled and killed.

Fire: High damage is great here.

Stone: Not special.

Storm: Lack of fired weapons cuts damage yet again.

Mino: Charge and axes are nice.

Winner: Fire. Damage is more important than boosted charge here.

Paladin:

Ogre: Blinded easily but can match attrition game.

Fire: High damage and resist blind.

Stone: Not Special.

Storm: Fired weapons again.

Mino: No weapon resist and lower damage is not good here. Axes will get you killed if smart paladins.

Winner: Ogre. Ogre can match the paladin attrition and still maintain high damage. Especially if not evil.

Monk: Weapon resist hurts monks.

Ogre: Slightly higher dam output.

Fire: Higher damage and might have to fight protection.

Stone: Not special again.

Storm: FIRED WEAPONS!

Mino: No physical resist = bad.

Winner: Ogre if good, fire if evil.

Healer:

Ogre: Divine ret will hurt.

Fire: Divine ret will really hurt.

Stone: Align advantage.

Storm: Ditto.

Mino: Axes + align advantage = strong against healers.

Winner: A moot fight by any means.

Cleric:

Max offense is important, but neutral will do best.

Winner: Ogre. Ogres will fair slightly better because resistance to shards and high dam output.

So look at this basic breakup, it looks like:

Shaman: Fire

Bmg: Fire

Rest: Ogre

Why should you play a storm giant? Only if you are going to become a crusader. Looking at all of this, it looks like ogre has a clear victory. Throw in a great hometown, all ethos/align, some automasteries, and awesome drunk talk, you can see why giants are NOT popular. This also shows why minotaurs are not as strong as they 'seem'.

-Celerity

[Zrothum]

Nice little composition there.

Ogres are the p00n.

[WagesofSin]

I wish they'd get rid of ogre roar...

[Zrothum]

I don't.

I remember Dharg roaring off multiple hellstreams.

[Fear, the Angel's Name]

...... what?

[Evangelion]

I want to say that ogres also have blood haze automastered.

Blood haze = "ogre roar"

[Polk]

mino: Max: Str: 23 Int: 17 Wis: 18 Dex: 17 Con: 22

+axe prof

dual wield all axes

superior charge

!!!!SHIELD/WEAPON CLEAVE BONUS!!!!

--

neutral/chaotic only

standard hometown

large size

-Celerity

Are you saying Mino's get shield/weapon cleave mastered for free, plus?

[mya]

I think no one said that .

Anyway i prefer to fight a Ogre on a Paladin than a fire giant any day of the weak. Flamestrike will eat the ogre and not the fire.

[Polk]

He said, !!!!SHIELD/WEAPON CLEAVE BONUS!!!!

If thats not automastery in shield/weapon cleave, what does it mean?

[songofsixpence]

try it and find out

[Polk]

bah, I get there he doesn't have it, and I delete the waisted time to find out that its a load of crap, so no thanks I'll pass on the waisted character, I dislike playing the mino's anyway

[Bl3h]

Alright, you say that storms aren't worth playing, but what about when they wield a water weapon, giving them + weapon proficiency, and while they are fighting on water. That is a MAJOR bonus. And it is quite easy to lure people to fight on water, because if they really wanted you dead they will fight you no matter where you stand.

[Zrothum]

Because you have to have a specific weapon/area/etc/etc/etc with a storm giant.

They are nowhere near as versatile. Making them uber lame.

[Celerity]

Mya: Nice thing about ogres instead of fire is that ogres can be neutral. Evil ogres will draw the battle out more..but a fire can also take the win. So it comes down to who can do it more easily..and I think that an ogre will be able to take down a well-played paladin MORE CONSISTANTLY whereas the fire will be attritioned to death.

[L-A]

Interesting article - heavy on the stat side of things. While stats are nice I've found that they mean far less than many would believe. At the pointy of PK everything counts - and that means if you have a weakness it will be exploited.

For this reason I'd back a mino to outpeform ogres and giants on an all round basis. You mightn't win some battles as easily but you would still win them. You would however win in places where ogres and giants wouldn't.

IMHO strong all round characters are a lot more fun than powerspiked characters that get raped by 2% of the character population. It doesn't matter how much fun it is to shred others, that 2% of the time when you're grabbing your ankles is bloody frustrating.

L-A

[goldbond]

that was the most instructive and in-depth information-compiling post i ever remember reading for a long, long time.

[Dale]

Fire giants are the best in my eyes. In a certain cabal at Elder, they can hit massacres through sanc. Example, Gnaskig.

[Zrothum]

Ogres can do it too. In two cabals.

[Dale]

And have 119% in a weapon?

[Bl3h]

I've had 120% in a weapon while I wasn't in a cabal as a FG warrior...

[mya]

Tha is because you chose exotic mastery . Or been a monk.

Who cares if Ogres are neutral, (ok i cara and my protection also cares), Wrath is over rated, i can take them down spaming Flamestrike whith a fire lance or while against a fire i have to wrath, and use a stupid rare ice sword.

And dont forget firebash, i got killed by fire giant wariors merely by the bash damage.

I know Ogres are powerfull, and you forgot the thing about monks.

If i ever had to line up hardcoded class/races, it would be Vamparies followed by Ogres.

Also Storm giants get no water weapon bonus.

[Bl3h]

Ha! Storm giant wielding a water-based weapon does get a bonus.

[H&R]

Never count on an ogre's roar, it rarely ticks in. And they aren't resistant to shards. Just a few things.

[mya]

"Ha! Storm giant wielding a water-based weapon does get a bonus."

As in i profed myself weapon while holding an exotic water weapon on a Storm and it was higher than 110%.

Or as in I heard from a friend that was the sputnik of storms ?

[Pali]

While I find that ogres tend to be able to (all other things equal) outmelee the giants, they also tend to have a much harder time fighting communers/mages. A shaman landing everything first try will destroy ANY melee, no matter how many times that shaman has to flee and heal. Evil clerics can slaughter ogres far more easily than they can fire giants in my experience. My invokers in the past always had a harder fight off giants than ogres as well, EXCEPT for fire, but invokers were intentionally made to be able to hit elemental vulns without trouble. Invoker dropping sanc then hellstreaming between rounds will kill off a LARGE percentage of that ogre HP. Battlemages definitely have an easier time with ogres, as they can far more reliably blind/rust/etc ogres, and sharpmetal does more damage to them. Necros have a similar edge fighting ogres, with the all-around magic vuln. Ogres may be strong and regen fast as hell, but that doesn't really help if you're poisoned/plagued/weakened in three rounds.

In summary: my experience lends me to see ogres as the ultimate MELEE fighters, but their trouble with magical classes balances this. Also, while on a case by case basis ogres seem to have more options, the giant races as a whole open up a ton of things ogres can't do. Fires can be clerics/shamans. Storms can be clerics/healers and can even go crusader. I don't see the giants as being weak comparatively, nor minotaurs, which are the melee race designed TO slaughter mages/communers.

EDIT: As for bloodhaze, yeah, that'll save an ogre's skin plenty. On the other hand, it's completely unreliable and unpredictable. You can't rely on it, you can only thank it after a close call.