Celerity Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 A few of you are bringing up magic vuln as a defect for ogres. Afflictive is covered (ogre hp negates) and giants share mental vuln. Therefore ogres are weak only to mals..and in application against those that can cast them and not be lagged (shaman) the fire does better. The case of ogre+giant+m against necro is also rather moot, as none of them will win. Ogre hp lets them live longer, but they'll all die. Generally speaking, I was using warrior as a base race. I made the point about shaman, but you'll have to clarify more specifically why clerics are stronger against ogre than giant. I'm not sure why you invokers have a harder time against giants...ogres have more hpgain and the same magic vulns (concerning invokers) as giants. More specifically again? Sorry, I'd write more, but I gotta go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fear, the Angel's Name Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Quick and easy solution to prove your ogre-pwnage point Celerity: Stop playing Celerities and start playing Ogres. That'll show 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Afflictive is not covered, unless you are assuming base saves of 0 for everyone. Remember, ogres not only take more damage, they also save very poorly. That mean they are taking extra damage from afflictive spells; sometimes, a tremendous amount, depending on the spell in question and how much it saves for. Clerics hurt ogres more because ogre save against their path less often, and because ogres get mal'd by path more easily as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsestomp Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 And four paths on an unsanced ogre after minister chimes in? I've killed ogre rangers with two pets using that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Afflictive is not covered, unless you are assuming base saves of 0 for everyone. Remember, ogres not only take more damage, they also save very poorly. That mean they are taking extra damage from afflictive spells; sometimes, a tremendous amount, depending on the spell in question and how much it saves for. Clerics hurt ogres more because ogre save against their path less often, and because ogres get mal'd by path more easily as well. Exactly. As for invokers, yes, the hpgain gives ogres a boost. However, that's only if the fight lasts a while. No smart invoker is going to allow himself to be pulled into an attrition battle against an ogre. Ogres get hit harder and resist worse than giants do by aff spells. Fire giants get hit hard by ice, sure, but the ice'll do better against an ogre with saves than a fire giant with them. Plus, hellstream, call lightning, etc. all are much more worth it against an ogre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizz Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Playing an Ogre warrior was really fun, but MAN did I ever hate clerics/shamans. The melee was great though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Let's just say, if you want to kill any certain ogres, be it rangers, warriors or the never seen berserkers, roll a shaman. My most hated enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Playing an Ogre warrior was really fun' date=' but MAN did I ever hate clerics/shamans. The melee was great though![/quote'] Exactly my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deykari Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Let's just say' date=' if you want to kill any certain ogres, be it rangers, warriors or the never seen berserkers, roll a shaman. My most hated enemies. [/quote'] Or roll an evil cleric. All the fun of killing Ogres, without having to wait for mals. Dey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-A Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 The fun factor of a character shouldn't be overlooked either - all teh characters I actually enjoyed were far stronger than characters who I rolled on 'power combos' but never really go into. L-A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Very, very true. Fire giants can be a blast just for watching the damage fly wielding a fire weapon. Fire giants wielding fire weapons on ogres, oh MAN do you see damage flying there. Such fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoneemus Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Celerity is very good at establishing her viewpoint and presenting theory as fact to back up that viewpoint. While I can't argue that if you had two players with optimal eq face off a thousand times in simulation, a lot of what you say would be correct, the fact is real PK doesn't work like that. Ogres are only amazing if you do everything right, and likewise, other races have abilities to take advantage of an opponent's mistakes. It's hard to qualify what "should" happen when "should" is such a vague concept. I think you vastly underestimate the mal/aff vuln, especially vis a vis paladins and clerics, and saying that the necro matchup is moot is just selective omittance on your part to prove your point..you listed other matchups that are frequently won by warriors as wins for the ogre, but you won't list a matchup that is frequently lost as a loss for the ogre (and it clearly is; minotaurs probably come out on top). I think L-A made a very good point; if I had a choice between a butter knife and a blender, well, the blender is clearly more streamlined and efficient for most of what I want to do. But the butter knife can get all of the same things done, given time, and it's also able to do things that the blender simply can't. I'd enjoy eating puree'd buttered toast about as much as I enjoy fighting shamans on my ogre, so being superior in almost every aspect doesn't mean an ogre is suited to all situations. Hence the point of a heavy-vuln race. Sometimes you simply don't need that extra power. With that said, ogres are probably the best berserker race in my opinion. Not warriors though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirax Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Ive noticed know has really mentioned Stone giants, looking at their stats and reading the pros and cons they dont seem a bad bet, if im getting this right they get physical dam resistance like storm/fire which ogre does not get. They have no vuln apart from weak minds, and they get high strength and con plus an dex of 16 and int 16 better than a fire giant worse than ogre. I havent played one, ive played a minotaur and have found myself getting whacked a lot more than on ogres their poor dex is a factor no doubt. So the conclusion is? if you want your warrior to be good against other warriors go ogre, wanna be good against mages go dwarf? Any input on stone giants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Minotaurs are BEASTS for mages/communers, particularly as zerks. Their charge bonus ALONE does this. I don't see how anyone could list a mino zerk as weak against mages/communers. It's one of the best melees to slaughter them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celerity Posted October 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Mino warriors don't have the charge lag, so that isn't really an issue. Well, look at it like this.. BMGs: High physical damage...minotaurs have no physical resistance and a lower damage/block/hit/resist capability compared to giants and ogres. Take more damage and take it more often (zerks get destroyed by bmgs--super high defense and high offense). Invokers: Minos do somewhat better here, but charge is voided even for zerks. Still, low regen and low dam output. Zerks get destroyed by invokers (moreso than bmgs-one dispel magic + spell means high chance for autorage which means you DIE--invoker will get a few chances for every haymaker/headbutt you fail). Shaman: Minos also do well here, but giants do just as well (no vuln to mal either) AND put out more damage. Zerks do NOT do well against communers (shield block). Cleric: Minos may do better or worse than giants--I think it depends on the cleric race. Minos may be able to enter more commands due to minister, but their output is low comparatively, and they will get torn up by steel shards (giant hp but without resistance). Zerks also get torn up by clerics (can't input commands and lower output/defense than warriors). Minos will do better when they are at an equipment disadvantage--but with eq dependent classes (warrior-zerk), if you are at an eq disadvantage, you are in serious trouble anyways. A mino zerk against a cleric is probably better than a giant zerk or ogre zerk. This doesn't translate into tearing up the cleric though, by any means. Still at a huge disadvantage. Zerks have more class banes (classes which destroy them) than any other class...including bards. There is a reason you NEVER see minotaurs that do as well as giants or ogres. I've played a good deal of warriors (10+), including minotaurs, all the giants, and ogres. There were some good points brought up in the other posts, and I'll make a major revision addressing things like player skill, equipment dependency, and overall strength (rather than case by case) when I get back to my apartment...if I ever get around to it. Edit: One place that minos/stones do shine is against druids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioner Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Druid? Pshhh Who plays druids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Mino warriors do have the charge lag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirax Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 But magic weapons will hurt an ogre more wont they? And the giant physical resistance means they take less damage from all weapons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Giants take less damage of any physical nature. This includes any weapon that does smash, crush, slash, stab, pierce, etc. damage, as well as spells such as sharpmetal that do physical damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirax Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Cheers for clearing that up, and ogres dont get this resistance, but as a plus they are quicker on their feet ie dex is higher. Think ill role something else to much to calculate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celerity Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 They don't get a resistance, but they get an HP bonus, so it takes just as much physical damage to drop a giant as an ogre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Hence why smart people use magic weapons on both. ^_~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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