Staff Methods

[Icor]

Yeah, so I’m going on a major vent. Don’t chop it up, don’t try to figure out what it is I’m trying to say. What I’m trying to say is in the literal meanings of the following words. Read the whole thing. And guess what? It’s about the staff.

To start off, I’d like to say that you imms, high-level and low-level, aren’t actually gods. You are people who make mistakes just like every other human on the face of the planet. You think that because you have they ability to snoop in a mud game (one of thousands) suddenly means that you’re never wrong about anything? This isn’t even about respect anymore. This isn’t even about updates or role play or trash killing. I don’t care about that. This is only about the staff’s methods.

I’m just warming up. Any time anyone ever brings up anything constructive for this mud, it SOMEHOW “degrades” into a subject concerning the staff’s “incompetence”, even if no one comes right out and says it! These threads are locked long before anything is even REMOTELY constructive is accomplished! Know what this amounts to? STAGNATION. Here’s a recent favorite of mine which helps transition into the next part of my vent:

This has degenerated into a thinly veiled assualt on the staff. I think some of you should think about your opinions and the way you've aired them for everyone to see.

“Thinly veiled assault”? Think about how we air our opinions, no, think about our opinions in general?! What kind of communism is this?! Am I just supposed to think to myself that the immortals are “doing nothing”, or should I stop thinking that all together? Am I WRONG to have an opinion here because I might get banned?!

I’m not even close to being done with this yet. I love how a bunch of these specific people ALWAYS side with the staff. I have something to say about that! Dictatorship is actually easier and more fun than you would imagine!

It’s a riot watching the staff put a cork in the mouth of every FLer that tries to bring up a useful topic that needs discussion. Halloween Madness, role play caliber, number of players. It’s like that “bounty” thread in the newbie forum. Oh! Where’d it go!? Aww. I guess Belegriel couldn’t cough up and admit that MysticR was right and he was wrong, and that a code change would certainly be something to consider. That thread just dies away because everyone is too afraid to point the facts out, and nothing gets done. Then threads like it get remade, and nothing gets done again, except that time, people get banned. Eventually, someone asks, “Where is that update?” Suddenly, the staff takes action, waits for the suck-ups to get shifty at the thought of an angry imm noticing the “rebel's” posts, then they jump in, offer their own bombastic, infallible interpretation of what was said, and lock the forum, never to be useful again... the process is very tragic. Players who are honestly concerned (even though they may be a bit snappy) are countered with more snappiness and then stop having fun with the game. What happens when you fight fire with fire? You get a big-*** flame. The “lock-thread” button is like putting butter on the burns.

All these cover-up games and mountains instead of molehills are so painfully sly and ridiculous that it WORKS, and players are actually SCARED to offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism anymore! Its like... I can never understand why you staff members are so threatened by “snide remarks”. Its almost like you’re afraid people will agree with all that and suddenly, you’ll be doomed. That’s the oily side of showbiz or something. You imms must know exactly how Mao Tse Tung felt! Here, look at this:

Smartass. Another such comment and you'll go on a little vacation. Gimping people is easy, piss me off in game and you'll find out first hand.

This was in that Halloween Madness thread. Why so defensive? Are you afraid of losing something? What does this kind of defensive attitude lead to, anyway? I can’t help but smile at all these plastic replies to every thread on the forum; all these people, picking through their words, trying to make themselves believe that the immortals are never wrong just so they won’t get Raargant’s red-mark. Guess what? Those people feel exactly how the Chinese population felt before, and after, Mao Tse Tung killed 10,000,000 people with starvation. They all knew the crime, but it wasn’t Tung’s fault! Tung was never wrong; after all, he did remove everyone that opposed him!

All this just reminds me of every lame-*** ruler I can think of, ranging from King Hared to Clinton or Hitler and back again. I can see them all sittin’ around on golf courses or in a big golden room eating grapes out of some beautiful girls’ hands. All these players are lifting their giddy satire to the “heavens” in upside-down praise, never questioning, never wanting, because they’re afraid of being banned. It’s sick. For Christ’s sake, even President Bush can take all the flack better than any of you can. Its all about what you want, and the players' wants and ideas threaten yours, because YOU must serve YOURSELVES first. It is a very simple formula. You want to talk about abuse? That formula has been abused ever since Greece and Rome, and probably far before those eras. Nero, Stalin... Guess what? They got what they wanted, and they did it through fear. Who here is honestly afraid of Chayesh or Malch’? Honestly now, raise your hands. You wouldn’t speak up against them, right?

The only one I’ve seen respond with real matureity to any so-called “snide remark” has been Behrens, and for that, I don’t give a rats *** about new mud updates. I don't care if he's never around. If he can come here just to defend his own name for a change, and in a far better way than his colleagues can, cheers.

Know what I think the other imms should do though? I think they should find the damn value in humbleness and work with the players as if they were immortals too. If you think I’m calling the imms evil, think again. I didn't say that actions define you, so don't even go there. I am definitely saying that their current methods are evil, and if they want this mud to get better for both them and us, they’re gonna have to change those methods, which I believe they easily can.

[Zrothum]

I used to be just like you, with this train of thought. And then I realized....

It's just a game. And there are three choices.

A - Play THIS game by THIS game's rules, traditions, errors, hardships. It is what it is. It's not yours, it's theirs. One of the old IMPs said it best...it IS a dictatorship. Deal with it.

B - Make your own.

C - Go somewhere else.

Yes, I said that. Me, the guy who's been banned more times than anyone combined. Me, the guy who used to curse every single staff member alive. me, the guy who sold a character for 5 bucks. Me, the guy who's probably traded more chars than you've rolled.

After years and years and years of playing, I saw I was playing for the wrong reasons. I expected so much and just lost sense of what the game is.

Do I say this because I suck up? No. I say it because it's true. This is a dictatorship. Nobody here elects the officials, except the head honcho. Nobody hear can vote an official away. It's their way or the highway. They are nice enough to let us voice opinions, even if you think it's only half the time. I don't care anymore that they won't make the rock blue because I want it blue. I don't care anymore that just because I don't think giving my girlfriends char a bag of mithril armor is bad that I shouldn't be banned. It's not my choice. I can play here and have fun, or I can be a dickhead and get banned and whatever.

It doesn't make you any less of a man by going along with a set of rules, even when you don't agree. Yes, the Immortals are wrong sometimes. But guess what dude? They aren't really Immortal, their human. It's called respect. You don't have to blast them for every freaking thing they might do that's less than 100% perfect. It's an administration. A "business" of sorts. And working for a Fortune50 company, you learn a few things.

A- Never admit your fault. Just make it right.

B- Never admit the fault of your superiors or subordinates. Handle it internally.

I could go on and on. But, you're as hard headed as I am, I'm sure. So, feel free to respond and call me an idiot or a suck up. Fact is, tomorrow, I'll be PKing people and having fun. And you'll be wondering if they'll ever un-forum_ban you

Know what I think is funny though? You used to be one of the suck ups. That is, until you got your best character denied for having MUD-sex.

[jb5679]

Work under another man's shoes = Servitude

Work under your own shoes = Brilliance

However those two statements act, governmental thoughts and works should be noted. How well could WoW go if it was only 50 characters big and 5 gods watching? They would fail, because they are not acclimated to change or allying any desire to. I agree, the change in this game has been damn slow in comparison to what is promised, but the immortals have assured us of their working and we should recognize with this though, this thought in itself. What do the IMMs of FL do? Constantly slave over mud, making sure everything is Super Cereal? No, they lead real lives, deal with fake marriages, focus against bad clubs as well as all of us. Don't demand that they help us more than they should, they need time to live. After their romp through life they come to FL, upset maybe, but willing to do as will. They log on and get besieged by noob or qrace wannabe alike, forced to RP before they can fix what most people think is wrong. Lines continue, focus, then break, and nothing is decided because the gods are constantly besieged by youthlings wishing to make a name for themselves. A time should come, if you wish it, Icor.... that the IMM's do not respond period to mortals and merely change what they feel needs to be changed.

[random_clown]

I tend to agree with the idea that, perhaps, some constructive criticism given to the staff is taken the wrong way. When I offer up something I think could use improvement, I mean it as feedback to the staff. I mean it to help them see their own work, and give the opportunity to improve. Honestly, I think that real issues should be sent in prayer form. Like mentioned above, once a thread that contains criticisms gets into the hands of the public, it is often blown out of proportion. This causes egos to rise up, and the staff to appear on the defense. As a private channel of discourse to the staff, they are not on the defensive and can take your suggestion as it stands. Good or bad. As much as this is a 'dictatorship,' it is also nothing without the players. It would be foolish not to listen to real constructive criticism and feedback.

The part that perhaps, I find, to be the most moot when players discuss change is whether or not its even an option to do. I'm not saying the coders here are bad, but its a simple, visible fact that they are not active.

It is moot to discuss what should be changed in this game, code-wise, when not even major things are being changed. Much less the small adjustments we suggest. The discussion on those is almost purely academic.

I understand the thoughts that immortals have work, and lives as much as we do, but lets look at that in more depth. A player is expected to play for 10 hours to gain 1 rank in a cabal. Thats real. We put in the time. Now, a coder, in 10 hours, could complete a great deal of work. I speak from experience. A coder doesn't have to deal with approving descriptions, or running cabals, or RP, if he doesn't want to. So what is it to say that the person in that role is too busy to offer even 30 minutes a night of real coding. A person with a task list, and some organization could complete a great deal in just 30 minutes a night. Even married people who play muds, have kids, and lots of life obligations can find 30 minutes a night. But you know what? If we don't log on for X hours, we're not on enough and not worthy of being in a cabal. Because we're not doing our job.

I find that in game, Immortals do what is expected of them. They put in the time, interact when necessary, and try to make things enjoyable. Is the staff perfect? Of course not, neither are the players.

I believe very firmly that whoever is in charge of the coding should either set aside some real time in his schedule to actually be a coder, or step down from the position so that someone who can fill that role is able to step in.

I don't say this to demean any person by any means. I am just simply examing what is going on. For whatever reason it is, just do something to change it, or stop telling us that bugs will be address, changes will be done, or things expanded. I have respect for the effort it takes to create a mud, and keep it going. Its a lot of having to be rough with players, keeping people in line...not only with the playerbase, but with your own immortals. If we were truely to treat FL like a business, at the end of the day/month/year, you have to sit down and look at results. You may be a great coder, and a great guy, but if you don't actually set aside the time and do the work, you aren't doing justice to the job you claim to be doing.

I've always thought this to be true: If a job is worth doing, its worth doing well.

I believe that keeping the FL code alive and updated is a job worth doing.

Again, I say all this because I would like to see FL stay alive. I would like to see changes. Not because I want to call out any particular person. They may be great people, but you just have to look at results. I am sure that there are many great coders that would love to help FL in this capacity.

What may be stopping this is the fact that FL would then have to let someone new on board for this task. Well, thats just not true. It would be nothing for the staff to maintain strict shell access, and simply outsource the coding, or specific parts of the coding, to others. Send us what you want to do, we will send you the code, apply code(testing first, of course), and there, updates will come.

Another option? Well, I know from experience that you can teach yourself to code a mud. You can teach yourself fast. In fact, one could teach themself how to code a lot of basic things that would fix many, many bugs currently in the game within a few days. Learn a little more, and you're already coding new skills and spells.

I think its important not just to point out what you see as wrong, but also offer solutions. Anyone that really enjoys FL wants to see it grow and he healthy. With this good natured approach, suggestions should to the point, and provide some viable solution to discuss. Rather than insult the staff, forget the problem/solution, and just spend 4 pages trying to place blame.

What all incurs the anger of the staff, I have no idea. Maybe I'm stepping on toes, maybe not. However, if constructive criticism is pushing buttons, and begging for a ban, then I should have been banned long ago...and welcome it now. I hope that everyone is open minded enough to understand the difference between ranting, and useful feedback.

[Raargant]

I was intending to lock this thread, but happened to glance on random clown's post. I'm leaving this open for now, unless a higher-up IMM decides to override me. Consider yourself as having saved this thread.

I think random clown's post is excellent and contains several very salient points, which I will not comment on here. Refer to (I can't believe I'm saying this) Dharg's post, specifically the latter part of it, if you wish to know why.

I think the original post was mostly crap, and I'll go into that at length.

[Raargant]

“Thinly veiled assault”? Think about how we air our opinions, no, think about our opinions in general?! What kind of communism is this?! Am I just supposed to think to myself that the immortals are “doing nothing”, or should I stop thinking that all together? Am I WRONG to have an opinion here because I might get banned?!

You have the right to express your opinion. We have the right to ban you. You may express your opinion as you see fit. We may ban you as we see fit.

I’m not even close to being done with this yet. I love how a bunch of these specific people ALWAYS side with the staff. I have something to say about that! Dictatorship is actually easier and more fun than you would imagine!

I salivate every night at how much fun dealing with FL and complainers are. I log on the forums, go through a few dozen threads, just for fun. Really.

It’s a riot watching the staff put a cork in the mouth of every FLer that tries to bring up a useful topic that needs discussion. Halloween Madness, role play caliber, number of players. It’s like that “bounty” thread in the newbie forum. Oh! Where’d it go!? Aww. I guess Belegriel couldn’t cough up and admit that MysticR was right and he was wrong, and that a code change would certainly be something to consider. That thread just dies away because everyone is too afraid to point the facts out, and nothing gets done. Then threads like it get remade, and nothing gets done again, except that time, people get banned. Eventually, someone asks, “Where is that update?” Suddenly, the staff takes action, waits for the suck-ups to get shifty at the thought of an angry imm noticing the “rebel's” posts, then they jump in, offer their own bombastic, infallible interpretation of what was said, and lock the forum, never to be useful again... the process is very tragic. Players who are honestly concerned (even though they may be a bit snappy) are countered with more snappiness and then stop having fun with the game. What happens when you fight fire with fire? You get a big-*** flame. The “lock-thread” button is like putting butter on the burns.

IMM's have opinions just like anyone else. IMM's will express their opinions, just like anyone else. There's one thing though. We're the ones in charge of the MUD, so we're the ones whose opinions matter, in the end. Your opinions are taken into consideration. But we do not go off your opinions. We go off ours.

All these cover-up games and mountains instead of molehills are so painfully sly and ridiculous that it WORKS, and players are actually SCARED to offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism anymore! Its like... I can never understand why you staff members are so threatened by “snide remarks”. Its almost like you’re afraid people will agree with all that and suddenly, you’ll be doomed. That’s the oily side of showbiz or something. You imms must know exactly how Mao Tse Tung felt!

It's possible that we're threatened by snide remarks. Or maybe it's just that we don't enjoy people being snide to us. But maybe not. Maybe we just all really want to be Mao Tse-tung.

Here, look at this:

Quote:

Smartass. Another such comment and you'll go on a little vacation. Gimping people is easy, piss me off in game and you'll find out first hand.

This was in that Halloween Madness thread. Why so defensive? Are you afraid of losing something? What does this kind of defensive attitude lead to, anyway?

No, that was Warpnow, who made yet another account, after his original was banned, AND the seven in a row he made after that. Who created another account, and immediately began making snide comments again.

I can’t help but smile at all these plastic replies to every thread on the forum; all these people, picking through their words, trying to make themselves believe that the immortals are never wrong just so they won’t get Raargant’s red-mark.

I redmarker two things. Flames (not veiled flames, flames), and cabal/qrace related information [EDIT: And, possibly in the past, people who revealed their character names, before we just banned instead.]. I challenge you to provide a single case to the contrary.

Guess what? Those people feel exactly how the Chinese population felt before, and after, Mao Tse Tung killed 10,000,000 people with starvation. They all knew the crime, but it wasn’t Tung’s fault! Tung was never wrong; after all, he did remove everyone that opposed him!

So we're Mao Tse Tung, and you are ten million starving, dying Chinese peasants.

Hrm.

Okay.

Not only is your use of metaphor exceptional, your knowledge of history is as well.

All this just reminds me of every lame-*** ruler I can think of, ranging from King Hared to Clinton or Hitler and back again. I can see them all sittin’ around on golf courses or in a big golden room eating grapes out of some beautiful girls’ hands. All these players are lifting their giddy satire to the “heavens” in upside-down praise, never questioning, never wanting, because they’re afraid of being banned.

I know exactly what you mean. Logging on to this forum fills me with utter ectsasy. I live solely for your praise. That, and golf.

It’s sick. For Christ’s sake, even President Bush can take all the flack better than any of you can.

Yeah, but Bush gets to have an army. And invade countries. And stuff.

Its all about what you want, and the players' wants and ideas threaten yours, because YOU must serve YOURSELVES first. It is a very simple formula. You want to talk about abuse? That formula has been abused ever since Greece and Rome, and probably far before those eras. Nero, Stalin... Guess what? They got what they wanted, and they did it through fear.

Nothing makes me happier than players trembling in fear. I feel JUST like Stalin when that happens. In fact, I might make it my career, because clearly, it's what gets me off. Players afraid to be snide...ahh! That's the life!

How did you know that I researched how Romans and the Soviet maintained control of an empire through fear, terror, and mass murder, in order to keep control of a few dozen forumites? How did you know?!

The only one I’ve seen respond with real matureity to any so-called “snide remark” has been Behrens, and for that, I don’t give a rats *** about new mud updates. I don't care if he's never around. If he can come here just to defend his own name for a change, and in a far better way than his colleagues can, cheers.

I'll be sure to tell him, next time I see him, that people who are flaming him demand that he come in person to respond to the flames, instead of us doing it for him.

Know what I think the other imms should do though? I think they should find the damn value in humbleness and work with the players as if they were immortals too. If you think I’m calling the imms evil, think again. I didn't say that actions define you, so don't even go there. I am definitely saying that their current methods are evil, and if they want this mud to get better for both them and us, they’re gonna have to change those methods, which I believe they easily can.

Sorry. We don't spend dozens of hours of our life dealing with stuff on this MUD each month or more to be humble. We spend it so that we can come and laugh and be happy at the great, grand empire we rule...through evil, evil means of mass murder, fear, and torture.

Just like grandpa Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and all our other idols.

Whee!

[Lexi]

I've played this game in periods since version 1.0, and have actually never been of the opinion that any member of the staff (current or past) were biased towards me or other people. When I did something good I was rewarded for it, and when I did something bad I was punished for it. Coding and areas have been implemented at various speed, but the game really doesn't need many additions as much as it needs minor balancing and bug fixes in my opinion.

The game is coded for balanced one on one player combat situations. I would almost consider it perfect in this regard. It is simple, yet more advanced than I probably can imagine. Skill is superior to race and class combination as well as equipment. This hardly applies in any other game, especially since the FL tradition is to keep the numbers in battle even. Actually, the greatest flaw in my opinion is the players, not the staff, but that is probably because I interact a lot more with players who are disrespectful than I interact with Immortals that are disrespectful.

Actually, I admire the current staff quite a bit. They took upon themselves to continue running this mud after the last admins get fed up with us, the players, and decided to just quit. Sometimes I think we forget that there would not be a game to play at all, had not Behrens decided to take over.

Unfortunately, MUDs in general seem to be declining as other MMORPG's are being released to the market. Text based was all good when it was hard to construct graphical worlds for games on the Internet, but it's harded these days. It's a shame really, because MUDs offer so much that graphic can never do. Chasing, roleplaying or just simple world echos. The pace is generally faster in a MUD.

I do agree with the original poster's claim that stagnation will seriously damage this game, but stagnation does not come from the game - it comes from the player. Forsaken Lands offer so many combinations, races, classes, cabals, restrings, class specialications, tattoos (which I still think should be applied for, and given out more often.. *nudge*.. some religions will basically never recieve one, I think...), and much, much more. What we do have is a core of players that has been here for a long time, but it would seem that we lose old players more often than we gain new ones.

The only thing that we, as players, can do to prevent this is to invite other people to the game. And not get upset when the newer players screw up, be it going OOC or leading a hunting party into certain death. Also, it seems the players are more demanding (I know I am ) than they used to be. Spoiled, perhaps?

[Zrothum]

I still want my blue rock damnit.

[Raargant]

All the amusement aside from your post, as I see it, it can be summarized as this. Play close attention. This is the real heart of things.

"Don't ban people for expressing opinions. That's evil and that's what Stalin did. I want to say what I want, and not have to face consequences."

My response, really, is this.

This forum is not a political, public body. This forum is a privately run organization, for the purpose of communication between players in a privately run game.

In private organizations, there is no such thing as 'freedom of speech'. I have only one thing to refer you to, something you'll see in most places.

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

That is all there is to that. In fact, I think there is something I need to add to the sticky...

[Lexi]

I redmarker two things. Flames (not veiled flames' date=' flames), and cabal/qrace related information. I challenge you to provide a single case to the contrary.[/quote']

I'll have to go through the forums posts, but I'm pretty sure you have redmarked people giving out information about who their character is and such...

If I find it and win the challenge, do I win a cookie?

P.S:

Sorry for the derail... I just could not resist.

EDIT2:

People should not be afraid of voicing their opinion, that is just wrong. But people should expect consequences if they can not maintain a polite tone when arguing. Comparing FL with a company that's not doing anything and all really was a 'thinly veiled flame'. People should be more concerned of how they post their constructive feedback. It's no fun when peoples' feelings are hurt.

EDIT3: Edited for spelling...

[Raargant]

Bah, that was for their own good, so they don't get the characters denied. Had nothing to do with 'moderation'. Hmph.

[Zrothum]

And that time I was drunk. Pretty sure that got redmarkered.

[Raargant]

I believe those were deleted, not redmarkered, but I'm not too sure.

Regardless, let's keep this thread from derailing.

[MysticR]

All the amusement aside from your post, as I see it, it can be summarized as this. Play close attention. This is the real heart of things.

"Don't ban people for expressing opinions. That's evil and that's what Stalin did. I want to say what I want, and not have to face consequences."

My response, really, is this.

This forum is not a political, public body. This forum is a privately run organization, for the purpose of communication between players in a privately run game.

In private organizations, there is no such thing as 'freedom of speech'. I have only one thing to refer you to, something you'll see in most places.

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

That is all there is to that. In fact, I think there is something I need to add to the sticky...

That's a pretty poor summary. The point that he was trying to make, as I believe it, is that the way you guys go about banning people every time people make constructive criticism is rediculous. You take every criticism as if it is a personal attack on you guys, which it isn't. The players who try to provide constructive criticism love this mud. They want to see it get better, and yes, it has become stagnant. Why? I don't know, but I don't really like it either. There's a difference between attacks at your guys' expense, and criticism that could make this mud the best one there's ever been(Okay, I'm exaggerating, but still.) You guys really need to thicken up and stop banning everyone for voicing their oppinion. They are your playerbase and if you alienate all of us, which you eventually will do, then there will be no mud. This works both ways, mate.

No Imms = No Mud

No players = No Mud

In the end, there still is no mud. So what do you say that you guys thicken your skins a bit and stop banning every person who voices a constructive oppinion?

Note: I said constructive a few times during this post to make a point. Have free reign with every jerk, idiot, and *** who feels like flaming, insulting the staff, and all the other stuff.

[Zrothum]

Want some constructive criticism from a player to the rest of the players?

I remember this same argument "No players, no mud." coming up awhile ago....

I think they called it The Fall of the Ancient Pantheon

[Raargant]

Please make a list of those who have been banned for voicing a 'constructive opinion'.

On the tempban list, there are currently five. Two for flaming (other players, not IMM's), three for shoutouts abuse.

On the recent permban list, there is Warpnow, who generally pissed off the entire community, and granny4man, who made numerous comments and remarks across numerous threads regarding the incompetence and/or laziness of the IMMstaff. And the many alts they have made since.. A few spammers who advertise random crap on the forum.

Please direct me to this 'huge mass' of people who have been banned for voicing constructive opinions. All I see is a jackass who pissed off the entire pbase (go look at the threads), telling them how much they suck at RP across multiple threads and months, and another jackass who keeps trying to become an IMM, is unable to, then repeatedly criticizes the IMMstaff, before trying to become an IMM again.

[Wathok]

The playerbase has absolutely no idea how lenient Malchaeius, Chayesh, and Behrens have been and how many second (and third, fourth, fifth...) chances our less mature players have received. I have had arguments with them along the lines of:

Me - "Jim traded three characters, multied equipment, and swore repeatedly on newbie, and all you're going to do is tempban him for 5 hours?"

M/C/B - "Yep. I believe in second chances."

Me - "But this is Jim's FOURTH chance!"

M/C/B - "Then I believe in fourth chances."

The general playerbase only sees the final ban. Everything leading up to it is not publicly revealed.

[Deykari]

That's a pretty poor summary. The point that he was trying to make, as I believe it, is that the way you guys go about banning people every time people make constructive criticism is rediculous. You take every criticism as if it is a personal attack on you guys, which it isn't. The players who try to provide constructive criticism love this mud. They want to see it get better, and yes, it has become stagnant. Why? I don't know, but I don't really like it either. There's a difference between attacks at your guys' expense, and criticism that could make this mud the best one there's ever been(Okay, I'm exaggerating, but still.) You guys really need to thicken up and stop banning everyone for voicing their oppinion. They are your playerbase and if you alienate all of us, which you eventually will do, then there will be no mud. This works both ways, mate.

No Imms = No Mud

No players = No Mud

In the end, there still is no mud. So what do you say that you guys thicken your skins a bit and stop banning every person who voices a constructive oppinion?

Note: I said constructive a few times during this post to make a point. Have free reign with every jerk, idiot, and *** who feels like flaming, insulting the staff, and all the other stuff.

Not everyone who has voiced a constructive opinion has had a ban and thread lock. Read below, I agree with what Melinda wrote here:

DIT2:

People should not be afraid of voicing their opinion, that is just wrong. But people should expect consequences if they can not maintain a polite tone when arguing. Comparing FL with a company that's not doing anything and all that really was a 'thinly veiled flame'. People should be more concerned of how they post their constructive feedback. It's no fun when peoples' feelings are hurt.

One of Tom's posts (is he still about?) said it best when he talked about how **** some (I would go as far as to say "a lot") of us are at voicing our opinions in a sensible, constructive manner, and I definately agree with that. Raising a constructive point doesn't just mean taking the flame words out of it. It means talking about why a problem exists, and from those whys, what can be done to improve it in a respectful manner. Some are very good at this. Like said, the problem arises because we all have our own individual views on problems or ideas and some people will not express them as "well" as others.

And just a point ,at the end of the day bear in mind that this is the internet, and that the only tool we have to convey what we wish, is text. Text is open to anybody's interpretation because without tone, without body language, it can be very hard to interpret what people actually mean and what people are trying to get across.

Dey

[archgold]

the main point of how I see when IMMs ban or temp ban someone for "criticism" be it slightly constructive or a flame in the way you presentit is because you guys don't know how to competently develop your idea in a way that is presentable and polite to the "superiors." "Superiors" i mean are the people who run this MUD. Most of the time I see something like: This mud sucks because minotaurs get killed every step of the way so they need a boost.

Maybe that means you got killed a bunch of times at pinn or at 30th from undead/demon/vamp wannabes. Sometimes its a bit true like for all those Tribunals getting destroyed left and right. But either way its all about your attitude, people can't demand something when you have no power to make the decisions. Instead you present it in that is both polite and respectful to the IMMs so they possibly consider it not to be an insult or flame towards them.

thats just my thoughts.

[Deykari]

the main point of how I see when IMMs ban or temp ban someone for "criticism" be it slightly constructive or a flame in the way you presentit is because you guys don't know how to competently develop your idea in a way that is presentable and polite to the "superiors." "Superiors" i mean are the people who run this MUD. Most of the time I see something like: This mud sucks because minotaurs get killed every step of the way so they need a boost.

Maybe that means you got killed a bunch of times at pinn or at 30th from undead/demon/vamp wannabes. Sometimes its a bit true like for all those Tribunals getting destroyed left and right. But either way its all about your attitude, people can't demand something when you have no power to make the decisions. Instead you present it in that is both polite and respectful to the IMMs so they possibly consider it not to be an insult or flame towards them.

thats just my thoughts.

Hear hear. I agree.

Not only that, but if you have a concern about a point that could be particularly sensitive, why not raise the concern in the prayer forum, like said earlier? Posting something that is likely to cause arguments and flames, in the public forum, will result in threads being locked and flames being thrown. This thread is a prime example. You could have easily have created this in the Prayer Forum, and had a debate over the your problems with how the Imms currently operate, and NOT bring it to the public forum, which once again makes another thread inwhich the Imms have to defend themselves in. Remember, your opinion is not the opinion of everyone else. Call me a suck-up all you like, but you are seeing some "Big problem" with the current Imm staff - I am seeing a few setbacks in the coding department, and that's it.

Dey

[Questioner]

The imms at fl have been working hard. Just because they don't sit in the central commons of rheydin handing out freebies, or rping with random players 24/7 doesn't mean they aren't there and working. They have to make sure the mud keeps running, bugs don' pop up. and to catch cheaters trying to cheat.

Pertaining to ideas and opinions shut down...blame the flamers and those jokers who can't give a good opinion without trying to downpower something or someone. Shall I remind you of despiser? Everyone wanted to tone down tribs or vampires. Or maybe keep them from being tribby vamps? Either way, it was allowed to despiser because he was such an excellent player who knew how to rp and fulfill what he promised IC ingame. Your opinions are heard and admired by the imms I am sure. But ideas which have no other purpose than to try and help a class or race, or even a cabal are hated because it defies the whole purpose of balance. I personally liked some of the ideas recently thought of. I would love to see monks get a few changes. But if the imms think it would be best to leave them as they are, then hey! They are the imms no? If you can't handle the fact that they control the mud and you don't go elsewhere dudes and dudettes. Like I said before, don't bring this mud down.

Peace.

[Icor]

"The right to deny people service" doesn't have to be executed as often if everyone had a little more patience. Telling you that you have the right to ban people whenever you like is exactly the point I was making. Mao Tse Tung’s methods are just an example. Those methods do not need to be replicated, it didn’t do his country much good. Without other leaders to limit his power, he went nuts. It's like deacons in a church. A pastor can't just make all the decisions. I understand that you guys are a team, but some of the threads that have been locked didn't seem to be talked over beforehand.

I have this weird feeling that people are being "punished" and really don't know what for, had they not noticed that they may have hinted at disrespect or something.

I don’t know what to say about Warpnow’s ban, other than I think he deserved it. But it was Emp_Newb and Celerity who brought matters up in that Belegriel-locked thread somewhere near the top of the forums still. Again, I don't care what additions are made to the game and what additions aren't. It's up, it's fine. We don't even pay for it, and we still get to play it. Behrens keeps it going, that’s good enough. I’m sure he has a zillion ideas of his own juggling around. But if you guys want less complaining from the pbase, you're gonna have to have a little more compassion. It has a lot to do with the atmosphere. It’s like people can’t trust in being honest because their afraid their honesty might communicate “The imps aren’t doing anything”. You're correcting members of the pbase out of frustration instead of a desire to teach them, even though you’ve used the compassion method several times already. It’s all about patience. Being imm is being better than a player, but not exactly higher than a player. Like, I believe Warpnow could still be playing around here if people weren't so tough on him right off the bat and tried to work him through things.

By the way, thank you Random_clown and yes, Dharg.

[Kyzarius]

I have played here for 3 years 5 months now, and honestly i have no clue what this thread is even referring to. Now admittedly i have not till recently communicated in the OOC world of the forums...but in game i have never seen any of the things that the OP is commenting on...

Is this a blight on the methods used to handle people who consistently in action and deed break the rather simple rules of game and forum?

Thats what it seems to be, the OP is comparing the immortals to dictators, which i have seen before on other muds. But not once does the OP site anything but general circumstance....maybe im just dense this morning.

I know many people will probably chime in that such is run of the mill...but...nevertheless. In the past i have imm'ed on a different mud, i played there for several years. I invested time and effort into building a game, i have ran personal quests, policed cheaters, and built areas. I quit it all, and it was because of things like this. The one thing people tend to forget is that there is no money in mudding, its a hobby, even the "administration" is a collection of volunteers. Personally the only times i have witnessed any venemous response from the staff here is when a rule is broken or disregard for personal respect that would be given to a stranger on the street is applied. The rules are simple, and the request for respect and immunity to personal attacks by the "staff" is reasonable IMHO, and due.

The staff here does a good job, and maintains an elite approach to mudding that keeps myself and many other players around (yes thats an assumption). I can only hope that despite chargrined people with sly mouths the staff continues on as they have in the past years.

The thing that gets me is that these "things" that the OP refers to have all occured out of the game (and wasnt the forum shut down by the "old" staff at one point because of disregard to the rules of ooc communication...)

[Icor]

My biggest point is that dictatorships are bad. Even though this isn't some political forum or whatever, it still has a government. It has nearly admitted to being a dictatorship and performs much like a dictatorship. I cannot for the life of me think of how a dictatorship is in any way good for anyone except the leaders. I think problems can be solved on both immortal and mortal levels if the form of government is changed. Not a word has to be changed in the rules; it's just a small change in the way the staff and the players communicate. They do unto us as we would do unto them, and visa-versa. They respect us more, we respect them more. The relationship doesn't have to be strung so tight. We shouldn't get nervous when RPing with them in game because we're nervous near them OOC.

[Raargant]

"The right to deny people service" doesn't have to be executed as often if everyone had a little more patience. Telling you that you have the right to ban people whenever you like is exactly the point I was making. Mao Tse Tung’s methods are just an example. Those methods do not need to be replicated, it didn’t do his country much good. Without other leaders to limit his power, he went nuts. It's like deacons in a church. A pastor can't just make all the decisions. I understand that you guys are a team, but some of the threads that have been locked didn't seem to be talked over beforehand.

This isn't a country. There is no political system. Even if it was, your example is completely irrelevant, and I will be happy to debate you on either Mao Zedong, Stalin, or Hitler, and their governance styles, in another thread. Probably on the OOC forums.

This is a game that is being hosted off our servers, maintained by our coder, and managed by our administration. This is not a dictatorship. This is OWNERSHIP, of this forum.

I have this weird feeling that people are being "punished" and really don't know what for, had they not noticed that they may have hinted at disrespect or something.

Really? I've given you the list of people who've been banned. Where are these 'feelings' coming from?

I don’t know what to say about Warpnow’s ban, other than I think he deserved it. But it was Emp_Newb and Celerity who brought matters up in that Belegriel-locked thread somewhere near the top of the forums still. Again, I don't care what additions are made to the game and what additions aren't. It's up, it's fine. We don't even pay for it, and we still get to play it. Behrens keeps it going, that’s good enough. I’m sure he has a zillion ideas of his own juggling around. But if you guys want less complaining from the pbase, you're gonna have to have a little more compassion. It has a lot to do with the atmosphere. It’s like people can’t trust in being honest because their afraid their honesty might communicate “The imps aren’t doing anything”. You're correcting members of the pbase out of frustration instead of a desire to teach them, even though you’ve used the compassion method several times already. It’s all about patience. Being imm is being better than a player. Like, I believe Warpnow could still be playing around here if people weren't so tough on him right off the bat and tried to work him through things.

We gave Warpnow months. Quite frankly, we have better things to do, and by we I refer to both the IMMbase and the pbase, than to babysit and listen to the whines, repeatedly, of a single player. You can't please everyone, and we have better things to do than try.

On the question of locked threads, let's look at the facts, shall we, instead of random, sweeping statements about Stalin. Let's look at the front five pages of the general forums.

Page 1: 2 locked threads. One in which someone was flaming another player (non-IMM related). One in which a player felt that the speed of coding was slow.

Page 2: No locked threads.

Page 3: Two locked threads. One which was an IMM announcement, one where players were flaming other players.

Page 4: One locked thread. One in which a player called the IMP-staff 'clowns' and incompetent.

Page 5: Two locked thread. The one just before Warpnow was banned, for reasons that, evidently, you agree with. And one where Balinor improperly posted an RP log.

So, across a MONTH's worth of moderating, there were exactly seven locked threads on the general discussion forum. One in which a player directly insulted the IMP's, one in which Warpnow was banned for reasons you agreed with, two for flaming other players, one for an improper posting of an RP log, and one IMM announcement.

And then one. Just one. Of locking for 'veiled flames'.

Newbie help? One lock in three pages and a month's worth, on a thread by granny4man maintaining that liches was a waste of time.

Ideas and suggestions? Three locks in two pages; one lock at request of the pbase to kill a thread that was no longer needed, one thread killed because of Warpnow (subsequently banned), one thread about whether or not academy could be used for hiding from PK, locked after the IMM's gave their ruling on it.

So where is this idea of a 'huge and overbearing dictatorship' coming from, exactly? I have my speculations, but it's of an unsanitary nature.