Staff Methods

[Raargant]

I know, I know.

Reflecting back on our exchange, perhaps I was a bit too hasty to judge. My viewpoint, at the creation of your post, was this: You are a former player that hasn't been around much that seemed to have came solely for the purpose of posting in support of your friends (having not done any real research), who have been complaining to you on AIM (did we mention that we hate AIM-based webring complaints?), and calling ME out in specific as a person who should resign.

If I misinterpreted your words or your intentions, then I apologize for the tone of my post.

[Evangelion]

Alright. I'd like to put in my two cents.

First and foremost, this isn't a question of whether we are the best MUD around. So we can just set that notion aside.

This is a question of whether this MUD has a good, not "the best", staff. And the answer, quite simply, is yes. Why, you may ask?

good

1. morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious

2. satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree

3. of high quality; excellent.

4. right; proper; fit

5. well-behaved

6. kind, beneficent, or friendly

7. honorable or worthy

8. educated and refined

9. financially sound or safe

10. genuine; not counterfeit

The first ten definitions for "good", courtesy of dictionary.com are what is quoted above. So let's go through them. Have the IMMs ever done anything morally rephrensible to the playerbase? No. In fact, just a few weeks ago, the entire playerbase was applauding the IMMs, for taking out the trash. Getting rid of the source of most of the negativity on this forum. I consider that to fit the definition of good. We're not even talking about the "in game" staff, in this thread. We're only talking about the forum staff. So people who have been banned, threads that have been locked... I challenge any of you to find one that wasn't locked for a good reason.

So let's get right down to what we're talking about here. We're talking about changes. "Why aren't there any changes?" "Why is there no progress being made?" Well, what this boils right down to... is overstimulation. How so? Right before Virigoth left, there were a number of changes made. Blademasters were released, a few areas were implemented, Royals had their cabal status removed. When Behrens took over as head coder, a number of changes were, again, released. Tribunal was put out, liches were implemented, and more areas. And now, for several months, there has been "no progress" in the eyes of the playerbase. Well lets take a look a little further back. What was the most recent change before blademasters? Ferals were implemented. Not really all that hard - there is, after all, a race editor in the code. Before that? Solace is taken out, and Crystalmir Caverns put in. Before that? Nothing... nothing... nothing... Oh, there's Watchers.

Think about it, people. Sure, there was about a year and a half there, where there was a large number of changes introduced. But we've been open for nearly seven years. What about the other five and a half years? I hate to break it to you, but we've been overstimulated. Too many changes and then when they come more slowly, things seem to have stalled. Well, they haven't. Things are just back to normal.

[Goomf]

Heck, I'm the one who blocked people when I played FL because they were annoying the crap out of me. Some things don't change and some things do.

No biggy.

[Goomf]

Think about it' date=' people. Sure, there was about a year and a half there, where there was a large number of changes introduced. But we've been open for nearly seven years. What about the other five and a half years? I hate to break it to you, but we've been overstimulated. Too many changes and then when they come more slowly, things seem to have stalled. Well, they haven't. Things are just back to normal.[/quote']

I think the main gripe about this is that dkn/pally changes were announced as nearly ready a year ago but haven't come out. If a new date was set for them or some more notification was given regarding their due date or what's going on with some of the imms projects, things will cool down.

Hmmm...maybe a new section of the forum devoted to projects? That would be interesting for the pbase.

[Celerity]

How do you think Hitler would feel being compared to Raargant???

I don't think anyone disagrees that the IMMs are doing their job. They moderate, run the MUD, etc, etc, etc. This is obvious since we can SEE that.

Chayesh: No PM for you!

Playerbase1(limited) argument: You are reacting too strongly against these people who question the staff.

Playerbase2(limited) argument: Coding changes aren't happening. Let's fix it or hear a reason.

Playerbase3(limited) argument: It is not our right to play here and we should appreciate what we have. If the IMMs don't want to tell us about it, that is their RIGHT.

Imm argument: We ban problem people, and problem people will be problem people always. We put up with a lot of crap that you don't see. We let a lot of things slide.

Guess what? Everybody is right so far. IMMs do react strongly against people who question the staff (depending on the nature of the questioning--flames: ban, etc). Players SHOULD appreciate what they have. Most do. IMMs DO ban problem people, and try their best to maintain order.

Playerbase3 is answering playerbase1, but saying it to playerbase2 for some reason. IMMs are answering playerbase 1, and applying it playerbase 2. Playerbase 1 is taking playerbase2's idea and applying it the entire IMM's job. IMMs and Playerbase3 react against playerbase 1, and so on and so on.

Guess what? Everyone is still right, but people are directing their arguments to the wrong people.

Of course the problem child rules apply to Warpnow, granny, etc.

Now this is our dilemma: Does this apply to me, my question, or to any other player in good standing?

No. I am not banned.

I am not even being punished. The only punishment I receive is frustration from a lack of answers and continual sidetracking (by everyone).

Now, the issue came up when I (a player in good standing) was moderated (locked) for posting something that questioned the coding progress of the staff. I am obviously playerbase2. Playerbase1 took this as a direct attack to everyone, and playerbase3 chimes in defense and the IMMs get involved and it becomes a mess. Everyone is still right, but just make sure your argument applies to the right person.

I am not trashing the IMMs. I am noy saying I don't like the MUD or don't appreciate it. I am not saying the IMMs are incompetent.

I'm just asking a very legitimate question, that is not an attack, or undermining or anything. It is not even criticism. Just simply...What happened to our coder and IMP?

I do not have a RIGHT to know, that is true. I can't see any reason why I shouldn't know. I do know it can't simply be 'busy'.

[Raargant]

Good post.

[Celerity]

Evangelion: I'm going to challenge you on that. There were all sorts of balances done in between Crystamir and Feral(both of which I did), etc... Blademasters were played with and toned. You are thinking of MAJOR changes (armies, cabals, classes, etc). Viri did tons of small changes. Now I look at what has come out from Behrens:

Tribunal (rename Justice and work perhaps? with existing code from Virigoth--I know he talked about it)

Liches (definitely worked and perhaps completed by Viri)

---

Areas (not code)

This is something on the lines of a day's work, if that. There has to be more after those two things, right? Any small changes at least? Any balancing?

This is why I asked for a change log, so we can see what has been done...

[Raargant]

I won't comment on Tribunal skills as to what they have or don't have, or what similarities they may or may not have to Justice.

Liches, however, to the best of my knowledge, are completely independent from whatever original idea Virigoth had for them. Irumeru and the rest of the IMM-base spent a great deal of time brainstorming the class and class skills; in fact, the majority of the unique skills which liches do have, I can probably tell you exactly who came up with them (amongst the current IMMstaff, that is). That took a considerable amount of time.

[goldbond]

1.) the only important issue is lack of discernable coding activity. a coder could be ushered in and given a stack of work to do and do that work, document the work, and log it. he could to be oversighted by an IMP that decides what the stack of work to do is.

2.) all this staff vs. players, IMM/player highhandedness, disrespect etc. is pure garbage that only serves as a distraction from the issue of non-coding. who on earth cares about IMM/player personalities and egos. your IG experience will trump all of that, and the forum only serves to amplify natural human conflicts which leads to:

3.) adjust the forum post rate to 2 posts in a 24 hour period. continue banning as necessary. and it often is in cases of a Warpnow-esque person. this will do wonders in stopping the hemmoraghing due to wasted emotion and pointless arguments created simply to gratify unrelated conflicts either in a poster's RL or an unrelated game issue. basically it would give the forum a much needed deceleration.

[Evangelion]

Hah. Two posts every twenty-four hours.

You gotta remember, our two most prolific posters are immortals.

[Anume]

Alright, I haven't commented so far and I'm glad that tempers flying hot have somewhat cooled down again.

The second quote of the original post was me. It might sound harsh taken out of contex but as already was said (and actually posted by me later in that very same threat) it was not in response to a single post but rather to someone who did not accept they were banned (for very good reasons) but instead kept recreating accounts just to annoy the hack out of the Imm staff.

As to Celerities (and some others) concerns, partly these are things that are currently discussed among the Imm staff, you won't get an answer until a clear statement is reached by the Imms (Imps).

Concerning your area Celerity, it has been worked over by several Imms, some balancing and slight adjustments were done. Concerning all building issues your best bet is to pm / email Malchaeius or ask on the prayer forum.

I think most of the Imms have been chosen because we are able to keep level - headed and mature about things some (most?) people would take personal offence at. If anyone has a problem with the behavior of any Imm, they can either post on prayer or send a note/email/pm to one of the Imps (prefereably Chayesh, staff Imp).

[Goomf]

The second quote of the original post was me. It might sound harsh taken out of contex but as already was said (and actually posted by me later in that very same threat) it was not in response to a single post but rather to someone who did not accept they were banned (for very good reasons) but instead kept recreating accounts just to annoy the hack out of the Imm staff.

Quick question regarding this. I thought the forum and the mud were mostly independent of each other. As in if someone on the mud is banned, that person is technically still allowed in the forum as long as he doesn't act like a dick on the forum.

Is that person banned in the game also? I would think unless he does some shady and annoying crap that directly affects the imms in the game, he is still eligible to play.

[Anume]

He stated months back that he is no longer playing the game nor is he interested in playing the game. He just came to the forum to annoy both players and Imms on a regular basis with whines about how everybody but him (who was not playing according to himself) did have awful/no rp (and other things). I won't go into detail here, if you want, do a forum search and you will see. He was forum banned and kept creating new forum accounts.

But in general, yes, if you are banned on the forum you are still allowed to play the mud IF you behave and keep to the rules. If you repeatedly break the rules and smirk at Imms when they are admonishing you to keep them, it's likely you are going to be banned from the game as well. We have several players who behave well in the game itself but got themselves a tempban for flaming in the shoutout forum (still better that than going ooc /cussing in game in my opinion). They can of course play while they are forum banned.

[Chayesh]

What Eshaine said.

To reiterate, if you maintain yourself properly in either arena, you will 99% of the time remain a member of that arena. Rarely, if ever, are the two tied together. Most often though, someone punked from one of the two arenas goes and acts the fool on the other resulting in Bananation from both.

[Fear, the Angel's Name]

Bananas?

[EtsoShex]

All I can really say is: Imms, to me, are like parents. There's definite babystitting involved, but you've got to trust them to do what's right. Sure, your parents are human, but you trust them and assume that they know better than you. You can't depend completely on them, but you can't go off on your own without a good idea of what's happening. And in terms of FL, all I do is play, I don't get into "Well, why isn't this here?" and all that crap. What they do is up to them, thus my "good idea of what's happening" thing. I don't know what goes on up there, so I don't pretend to.

How's that?

[Belegriel]

Is Behrens even alive? We want code changes! Code changes! Code changes!

We know that the staff does a lot to support the MUD (although haven't checked my volcano area YET!)

(desc checks, inductions, etc)---I haven't seen ANYTHING change in the code of the game for a long,

long, long time. Yes, I know we are supposed to be patient--but for how long? How many months or years

have to pass before ANY code changes come in? This MUD is effectively unsupported code-wise right

now. Yes, Behrens may be busy--but at what point do we say, "If you are too busy to contribute, why

don't you give it to someone who isn't?" That is exactly what Viri did...although it looks like the

MUD was given to a person who is MORE busy than he became

A: Air pollution is a huge problem in this city.

B: I'm happy there is still air--be thankful.

A: I am too--but that doesn't excuse the problem.

Those thinly veiled flames are from the thread I locked. To clear up any confusion, those are direct quotes from the other thread, only I don't know how to quote from one thread to another. Need some forum training I guess.....

I will not let this staff get drug through the dirt and insulted. End of discussion. You want to discuss changes and policies please do so in an intelligent manner without poking fun at or getting digs in on the staff. We all spend ALOT of time here doing everything we can to make this place run as smooth as possible so you people will have a place to spend your free time without issues or problems.

[Icor]

That's the thread that unhooked me right there Belegriel. I never saw a "thinly-veiled flame", and I didn't think Celerity was stabbing at the staff. It makes me mad seeing raw honesty like that being chained up. I think there are wiser ways to go about cooling down hot topics. For example, if I suddenly made a thread that said "The imms are crap", what would be the best answer? "Oops pal, you're banned", or just a simple "Why do you think that, Mr. flamer person?" It might be possible to save that player, while making is less stressful for everyone watching! =D

By the way, Chayesh, thank you very much also.

[Zrothum]

I like to think back about three years and think to myself....

WWDD

What kind of crap would I have gotten myself into back in the Dharg days lol...what would dharg do.

It took about a dozen bans, in game and forum, to finally grow up a little. Perhaps not quite there...but hey, go bleep yourself.

I love this game, I love the people in it, and now that I'm actually playing for the right reasons...-shrug- its super.

basically....it really doesn't matter what the IMMs are doing or not doing. This game exists and that's enough for me. Just to be able to play here. On a scale from 1-10 for being perfect all the way around mechanically...I'd give it a 8.

That sounds pretty lame perhaps. But, 10 out of 10 is PERFECT. No problems, no unbalancing, no bugs, no nothing. You go find a game. Me? I'm staying right here where there is just enough problems to keep things interesting everytime I come back bwahahaha

[Iusedtobesomebody]

That's the thread that unhooked me right there Belegriel. I never saw a "thinly-veiled flame"' date=' and I didn't think Celerity was stabbing at the staff. It makes me mad seeing raw honesty like that being chained up. I think there are wiser ways to go about cooling down hot topics. For example, if I suddenly made a thread that said "[i']The imms are crap", what would be the best answer? "Oops pal, you're banned", or just a simple "Why do you think that, Mr. flamer person?" It might be possible to save that player, while making is less stressful for everyone watching! =D

By the way, Chayesh, thank you very much also.

while the attempt to 'save' players is laudable, it is rather unrealistic. people form their own opnions and hunker down and hump them. any attempt to 'reason' with them, is taken the wrong way. rather than 30 threads trying to 'convince' said flamer, nip it in the bud right away.

[Iyorvin]

The mud has never had multiple coders. The mud has never been this stagnant. The coding issue has been raised multiple times in which the players recieve a response of, "Immortal issues will not be discussed with mortals."

Well, in response to that, if you as immortals want new players you need to advertise and highlight your positive points. There are million other muds out there, but we all chose this one to stay at. We have every right to know where the mud is going. All I can come up with right now is that frankly, not even the IMMS know. All I know is, I love this mud, I love THESE people, and I love playing here. But nothing lasts forever, and when newer players come, or older ones return, create a character and type news/changes and there is nothing listed at all........well you see a dying mud. Just my opinion, I know others differ, but that's how I am seeing it right now. I know there has been countless offers by great coders who wanted to help, and each of them has been rejected one by one. As was stated earlier, shell access does not have to be given to outsource the code.

Peace.

[Goomf]

As an addendum to Iyorvin's post, I personally know the affects that new changes has on a mud. On another mud that I play, the imms are running a huge global quest that will last for another few months. Old players are thinking 'wow, I'd like to grab me a piece of that ***' while old retired imms are returning with the same thought. In fact, I personally would probably introduce my friends to this mud because it is so freaking interesting at the moment had I no life. It's just that interesting.

Unfortunately, I do have a life.

Change is good.

[Icor]

I think Warpnow did unto the immortals as they did unto him. This little tidbit is just... natural law. Warpnow always thought he more right than the staff because the staff always thought they were more right than him. Someone has to break the mold and step down long enough to say "You are right in some instances, thank you, but...", even if he was actually wrong! If he he keeps bringing crap up after he breaks a rule? Get rid of him.

When I'm invited into someone's house and they have a list of rules, I try to abide by them. Don't put your elbows on the table, no fighting in the family room, only two hours a TV a day, etc. But when I'm seeing other guests getting slammed in the form of thread-locks/deletes because they're letting the host know that there's neglected water leaking out of and rotting the ceiling, I get iffy.

[Zrothum]

You keep trying to put it all into an actual life scenario.

If you come to my house and I tell you no smoking in the house and you light one up? Bitch, you're getting out of my ****ing house and onto porch until you're done. Then I'll let you back in.

You do it again tomorrow? You will never come back inside.

[Icor]

You keep trying to put it all into an actual life scenario.

If you come to my house and I tell you no smoking in the house and you light one up? Bitch, you're getting out of my ****ing house and onto porch until you're done. Then I'll let you back in.

Yeah, what if I came into your house and told you that your plumbing didn’t work and that I thought it needed fixed? Would you call me a bitch and kick me out onto the porch?

If rules are broken, act. Celerity did not break rules by saying that there was stagnation in the progress of the mud, but that thread still got locked because of what she said. Just a reminder, I, personally, don’t care about updates or code stagnation or any of that trash. I’m still sitting around here when, as it has been noted thoroughly before many times, I could just leave and make my own or join a different mud.