mya Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 My view of Paladins. And what is lacking. Or gimping. KICK. You wont imagine the number of times i would love to have this. As a paladin against certain classes there is nothing you can do in combat. Clerics, Invockers, Blasphemed. All these can nulify your spells and disarms. Shield bash would also be nice perk. Since shield bash =/= bash. FLAILS. Because Maces are awfull. - Flails are good becuse: - They disarm better. - They shild disarm better, an already hard skill to acomplish. - There are easy to find a magic 1 handed flail to dual than a mace. In fact the only 1 handed magic mace non rare is the newbie flame mace. And swords are to heavy or/and not magic. So exotics tend to be the most dual option around. - Knights look nice with flails, not maces, that is for clerics. Heroism and charmies. Heroism helps with resisting blasphemy. Moving around. Wrath becomes better. Rescue Perk. No charmies. Frenzy effect a la cleric. Mana unkeep. A paladin not using Heroism is not using 1/3 of his class staple. They should be alowed 1 squire with them. No PC's, only special mobs, like cabal mobs, and scroll golem and Charmed spell mobs. Paladins staple skills are Mounted Combat and Heroism. All other skills are sub 30th. And that is it. And elves still lose one of the best things of their races, sneak while mounted. Personaly i do not think elven Paladins are more PK powerfull than Humans. They are just a a lot "cooler". Bash protection from mounted combat could also have an extra saving roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Forsaken Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 People people people....Paladins are great. If you roll one and can't pk with it, then it might not be the class, it might just be that your not good with that class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Okay, you're acting like Paladins are meant to have a charmie. They AREN'T. The three non-quest classes meant to have charmies are DKs, necros, and rangers. Heroisms bonuses more than make up for the inability to have a charmy. As for elves, they have a huge bonus over human paladins in the dex. I don't know if you've really sat and looked at it, but a naked elf with full dex has about -100 ac more than a naked human with full dex. That's a big bonus. They're also better at avoiding dirt kick. Kick, frankly, is useless at 50 for a class like paladins. If you've got time to be kicking, you have time to be doing better things. You want to kick an invoker and give him two rounds where you're lagged? Smart invoker can kill you in that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted October 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Actualy if i lower 1 dex i lose 15 AC. So 15x3= 45 AC. Not 100. You forget that humans also have +3 STR. So you trade up, armor for ofensive power. Not defense, if anything STR is more important for defence than AC. There are better ways to avoid dirt kicking than a the dex bonus, and im not talking about water rooms. Every class that can use staffs can have a charmie. Every class that can use scrolls can have a charmie. Ever seen a cleric with a triton ? Its nice. I meant that Paladins should be alowed to have special charmies. Anyone remenber when you could use cabal charmies as paladin ? Heroism check was made at cast and you could after cabal a charmie. And kick. You surely know the old cleric log. Kick matters. And 2 rounds lag is better than 2 rounds sitting there doing nothing. Ever fought a cleric with spell shield up, only to drop it to have him flee and recast it ? Kick is the thing for this. Actriction war, with mana conservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grishnak Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 I'm going to argue this over and over again because everyone is salivating for changes to the paladin class. There is nothing, NOTHING, wrong with paladins as a class. They are strong, they can outlast and outlive 90% of the classes in the game, they can stack up on saves and still have great hit/dam via heroism, bless, etc. And if you've ever caught an unsanced opponent with a mounted charge wrath combo, don't even try to pretend like they have a problem. They are a very, very strong class and the only real drawback to them is the fact that they cannot consistently lag their opponent. This makes them a class you have to be able to chase to kill with, which is perfectly fine. To pk well with a paladin you have to be crafty at times, know how to chase, and know how to play a game of attrition. Paladins either kill their opponent very very fast because they catch them offguard or they end up in hugely long drawn out battles which they are good at winning because they can keep their mana high by sleeping with trance (another elf vs. human perk) and they can heal themselves. I still fail to see anything wrong with the class, period. I brought one back not too long ago just to give it a test ride and was effective in pk at 50 in basic mithril and a polearm/duals that can be gotten in 15 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Absolutely not. Paladins require no buffs. DK's on the hand, possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Kick matters in arena battles between clerics that have no mana. Kick is useless against invokers, which was one of your examples as to why they should have it. And my apologies if I was a little off on the AC comparison. As Grish said, you're missing the other bonuses elves have, like mana regen. As for charmies, yes, they CAN get charmies. But paladins, as a class, are not BUILT around using charmies. The main charmies available to a level 50 uncaballed char are just about useless. As for cabal charmies... *shrugs* You want the charmy, don't use heroism. Note the name of the skill: "heroism". "Heroes" don't rely on others to fight for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexi Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: mya I can see why some paladin players feel underpowered, at least compared to dark-knights, the evil melee/spell hybrid class. They learn a lot more weapons, have a varity of offensive spells and abilities ranging from bash, trip and dirt kick to fireball, charm person, malform weapon and plenty of maledictive abilities. Paladins are a mix of warriors and clerics; but seems to have missed out on the warrior side compared to their evil counterpart. Oddly, most people, and me included, agree that dark-knights are the ones that need to be fixed. The current mindset seems to be that a paladin must fight, flee and cure over a length of time to land a kill, which is a rather... boring... ineffective... way of winning. Really, some classes rely on attacks, others on spell damage - paladins on a little of both and a whole load of cure criticals. Yet, the class has its strength, and got plenty of them. Personally, I would like to see some tweaks to adjust their way of fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tassinvegeta Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Absolutely not. Paladins require no buffs. DK's on the hand' date=' possibly.[/quote'] I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fear, the Angel's Name Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 I think paladins should get ranged attacks. Why the hell is one of their ranking titles 'Bowman'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Because not all ranking titles make perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fear, the Angel's Name Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 No. Give paladins ranged attack. SENSE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Forsaken Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Because I think another one of the paladins titles is "Sword Carrier" or "Sheath Carrier, or cleaner or something" I believe it's refering to them being a squire, rather than an actual bowman. It's a low rank title. Hence, paladin in training = squire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldbond Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 oddly, i could see giving them kick and flail. that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsestomp Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 All stats give better bonuses at higher levels. Wear no equipment, and train a fire giant's strength from 22 to 25, checking hit/dam each time. You'll notice they get much better the higher it goes. Same with dex, you'll get much more AC from 24-25 than from 19-20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Corpsestomp is correct. With regards to Melinda's post, a paladin's strength is in outlasting, not in outdamaging, for the most part. If you want straight up outdamaging as opposed to more 'boring' strategies of longer-lasting battle, probably another class would be best. Each class is tailored for different types of strategy, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-A Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 As has been correctly pointed out - a paladin's strength is in outlasting an opponent BUT How this is done is a matter of player skill and flair. You don't have to wait until that cleric has no mana and little health to kill them my mutli-murder (though this is effective), stringing them along until you can use the charge;flame;wrath combo to wipe ~100% of someone's hp (and if you can't its your skill that is really in question). that Grishnak pointed out is another form of outlasting - it just ends with quite a bang. Instead of thinking of the class as a 'caster with charge' think of it a a 'warrior with cure' How many of you actually consider your weapon choice before you enter combat? Or do you just 'wield polearm;charge;flee;charge;flame;flame;flame;flee;cure;cure;cure and hope for the best? L-A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 I played a half-elf paladin. I kicked the puddin' out of a human dark-knight and a drow dark-knight.....BEFORE I had heroism or mounted combat. Between a combination of my curing/healing spells, charging, a nice polearm switchable with a good sword/shield combo, flamestrike, and wrath, I really didn't need anything else besides a strategy. Even some of my most half-baked strategies I had to make up on the fly worked. I think they're fine. Dark-Knights could use something though....I can't put my finger on what they're missing.....*shrug* Oh, well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted October 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 To end the AC thing, the diference is only 40 AC. Look Bellow. Paladins pre 40ths are one of the best classes around. As DK's. DK's are kings of the 30ths range. Before saves, before class spells. You just cant compare them before 50. Like you cant compare WArriors and BMGs at 20. I doubt you can take a clerics HP with charge, flamestrike, wrath. Paladins arent thiefs to be able to hide and strike from shadows. Clerics allways have santuary. Spell turning is a moment to cast, and nulifies all ofensive spells of Paladin. In fact you run the risk of blinding yourself with flamestrike. Weapons vs clerics is polearms or double swords. But clerics arent affectd mutch by weapon selection. With shield block and holy hands/whipflail... Althou with a cerntain religion clerics you are benefited from a fire polearm and flamestrike spaming. And mana draining a cleric isnt that of a tatic as they will recall and move/sleep it. The point is your mana conservation because of SERMON. Sermon lands in cleric fights and its a pain. And cursing someone with saves at 50 is once in a blue moon thing, unless you are a Shaman, Vamp or necro sleeper. /---------------\/----------------------------------------------\ | Abba || the Paladin Pupil | \---------------/\----------------------------------------------/ | Str: 21(21) || Level: 1 Sex: M Age : 15(0h) | | Int: 08(08) || Class: paladin Ethos: neutral | | Wis: 13(13) || Race : human Align: good | | Dex: 20(20) || Hp : 30/30 Exp : 1850/1850 | | Con: 20(20) || Mana : 100/100 | \ Lck: [|||---] \/ Move : 100/100 +Hit: 7 +Dam: 7 / /---------------/\------------------/\--------------------------\ | ARMOR || SAVES || Deity : Irumeru | | Slash : 42 || Spell : -1 || Faith : Compassion | | Pierce: 42 || Afflictive : 0 || Weight: 26/302 | | Blunt : 42 || Maledictive: 0 || Items : 8/37 | | Magic : 49 || Mental : 0 || Prac : 5 Train: 3 | | || || Gold : 1000 | \---------------\/------------------\/--------------------------/ / Condition: You are in the prime of your health. \ \---------------------------------------------------------------/ /---------------\/----------------------------------------------\ | Abba || the Paladin Pupil | \---------------/\----------------------------------------------/ | Str: 18(18) || Level: 1 Sex: M Age : 300(0h) | | Int: 20(20) || Class: paladin Ethos: neutral | | Wis: 08(08) || Race : elf Align: good | | Dex: 23(23) || Hp : 20/20 Exp : 2350/2350 | | Con: 16(16) || Mana : 150/150 | \ Lck: [|||---] \/ Move : 100/100 +Hit: 4 +Dam: 4 / /---------------/\------------------/\--------------------------\ | ARMOR || SAVES || Deity : Irumeru | | Slash : 2 || Spell : -1 || Faith : Compassion | | Pierce: 2 || Afflictive : 0 || Weight: 26/202 | | Blunt : 2 || Maledictive: 0 || Items : 8/40 | | Magic : 9 || Mental : 0 || Prac : 5 Train: 3 | | || || Gold : 1000 | \---------------\/------------------\/--------------------------/ / Condition: You are in the prime of your health. \ \---------------------------------------------------------------/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb5679 Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Dex changes the modifier on your equipment's armor. IE Ice armor will give you a certain amount of AC on a giant and a helluvah lot more on an elf/drow/halfer. The AC that doesnt get affected by dex is the modifiers like -5 -10 ac, what not. The ID thats like 15 slash 15 bash 15 blunt 15 magic....is affected by dex as well as where it is worn on the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted October 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 You are confusing the Armor location with races. Diferent body parts have a AC multiplier. For example a a 9 AC across the board breat plate will not lower your AC by 9, it will lower it by 4x9 because of chest multiplier. The same armor but now in form of leggings now only will give you 2x9 the armor on the identify spell. That is why AC is confusing. DEX has no effect on equipment AC. Diferent body parts have diferent AC multiplier that you can be exploited. That is the reason why some player use on chest High AC armor, and leave the x1 slots for saves and hit/dam effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grishnak Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 If you want to kill a cleric at 50 with a paladin, dual wield (a vuln weapon preferably), dispel evil to drop spell turning, and know when to and how to run. Stretch them out and make them think they have you on the ropes, make them greedy, then put on your polearm, mounted charge, switch back to duals, etc. A paladin is capable of killing a cleric, it's simply not an easy fight. With paladins you have to be very crafty at times, and one way to do that is to let your opponent think they have you in prime position for the kill only for you to come back stronger than they expected. You'd be amazed at how many people let spells drop as they chase in pk, especially if they think the enemy is near death, in order to chase faster and close in for the kill. Don't fight a cleric when you know there's not much chance for you to do anything (example: certain divine ints are pretty easily identified and the opponent should not be fought when its up) instead flee and run around for a bit, letting it drop. Again, just because the class isn't for you, doesn't mean its underpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexi Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 The thing is... playing the dodge game has a serious drawback. They can just decide they're not going to fall for it, and go someplace else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Clerics are supposed to be difficult to kill. Same with paladins, to a lesser extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iusedtobesomebody Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 there is a way to kill a cleric. hire a ninja. it doesn't have to be through Syndicate or bounties. just give a random ninja a bunch of gold and send them on their way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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