Stat randomization on EQ

As celerity said this would rease eq availability, reduce overly harsh lots and would prevent you from never seeing certain eq. God forged dagger, adeptus torso, hands of zharek. These are all pieces you never see. They are also sought after. I have not seen adeptus torso in forever, Same with hands. It would also mean you can always improve so your never stuck wearing onyx rings because no rings are available.

Yes, instead it makes you potentially spend an exponentially greater time gathering EQ because the EQ you went after had stats that were subpar, and there was no way for you to know that prior to investing time to acquire said EQ.

Enethier: the example you gave isn't possible...please take another look at my original post. It takes the standard stats of the piece of equipment. ..determines the rarity..and applies a few points of difference. Int/wis adjustment isn't even possible based on the values I gave in my weapon list.

Best case for a currently unique item is roughly the same power as now. Best case for a currently rare item is slightly better than now (if you land a unique) and best case for a common item is significantly better than now (if you land a unique).

So the biggest changes in stat values will come from currently normal items. Currently unique items...which are very hard to get at all now...are always available. .but you won't always get the full power one...but at least you have a chance.

This solution solves equipment availability and disparity concerns in one shot without causing a great deal of equipment power inflation without a lot of work.

I understand it isn't a perfect solution. ..but it is the only serious idea to solve our eq problem that I've seen.

Also..in terms of time..you'd spend much less time waiting for eq to be even in...that, compared to slaying a mob, is the real time limiter.

Anamus had both eye of hakeashar for what a year? Tell me you would not have taken one with vary stats instead of waiting for animus to die of old age and unalcoholism

Personally, I think people place far too much importance on EQ anyway. That aside, what justifies common EQ being significantly better than what it is now? Certain rares that are better than other certain rares? So then shouldn't the change be either increasing the amount of rares (dont like, its already been done and still we have this problem), or rebalancing the EQ to be more equal in power? That seems like a better action than adding more RNGs.

I understand that your post describes this as a way to rebalance mudwide EQ, but it is a much more difficult and clunky way of doing it than buckling down and actually changing the values of some of the over/underpowered EQ to manageable means. 

Yes, as it stands there are pieces of EQ that are overwhelmingly better than others, and yes collecting enough of them creates an all but impossible air around killing certain race/classes with them. But we don't need RNGs to fix that. Balancing should use as few variables as possible in static cases such as equipment, which has a value that does not change based on anything else. That's why most games with equipment or item rewards will actually steer away from randomly generated stats in favor of hard-coded stats which are balanced against all other options of equal investment or rewarded for equal skill. 

A titanium bracelet should not be more powerful than a broken terminator. It shouldn't even have the potential. Nor should an emerald brooch have the potential to rival a moonstone pendant. Or a bear tooth beat out a demon tongue (although that item could really use a bit of toning, being as effective as it is for as easy as it is to get).

The main benefit of stat randomization is that...the eq is always in. If you go to a mob, you will always get something. This is very important, especially for lower level players who often don't get much out of the eq trips they are dragged to.

First, There are very few lower level PLAYERS. There are always lower level CHARACTERS. But they will get to lvl 50 and make their mark in due time. I see no reason why a lower level character should have a pair of hakaeshar eyes at all.

Second, instituting stat randomization just undermines the work the staff has done to create varied mid-tier rares. Those that aren't the top uber pieces but are still a very viable replacement. 

Third, why do we want all eq available all the time?  In addition to the host of other issues I've mentioned, how do you balance that? Will the stat randomization be truly random? If that's true you have no way of moderating the number of great eq pieces that have been spun up, so everyone will go for adeptus. Instead of having 2 great adeptus pieces, there could be 4 or 10 etc. depending on how many times people are willing to churn through the eq piece that was spun up.

If, on the other hand, there is some kind of a moderation to the stat equation so that only so many "GREAT" pieces were made and then the rest was randomized, I still see no benefit to this because the same effect already exists with the current eq process we have in place. The best eq is unique, great eq is rare with a low availability, good eq is rare with a higher availability, etc.

The only benefit I see for this kind of implementation is for the elites and those with huge amounts of spare time. Both of these populations are the outlying scenarios here. I believe that catering to and building for the endpoint or outlying scenarios is never to the net benefit of all.

I think you are misunderstanding the scope of the random values...a unique titanium bracer is not going to be better than a common terminator...

Even if you could find such a case, you'd have a clear point system to balance it against.

Even if you wanted to manually rebalance eq...what would you balance it against? The good judgment of the staff? You'll have to use an objective point system either way if you want any decent amount of balance.

As for the philosophical argument between random and hard-coded stats...that isn't the prime determiner of balance. Hard-coded and random stats can have the exact same distribution of stats..it is a difference in how the content is awarded and generated...not in final balance. In fact, I would argue that random games tend to have better balance as developers are forced to examine and quantitfy distribution when creating a random system. If they manually set each item, there will be large differences between each developer and often they eill just "wing" the balance, such as in FL.

So instead the solution is to allow eq to be restricted to those players who have massive hours or ultra elite piers in god suits? Have you tried fighting an invoker when you there has not been a helm of spell turning, ice amulet or moonstone pendant in a month? This relieves eq disparity, gives newer players which we DO have a fair amount of the ability to get suited up. Full looks do not car ragquits because you can just go get it again. You also have the potential god suit without need a party by farming rarely used items you can solo. This is a huge bonus for people in near dead cabals because you can relatively quickly get suited to a stronger pk level instead of just typing outfit and hoping for the best

P:

I would argue that there is a wide range of skill between players, regardless of the amount of time they've been around. What I meant was that instead of one unkillable cleric or warrior having a prime set of eq..there is potential for it to be more evenly dispersed.

The main reason we want eq to be available is that when it is not available, there is no mechanism to improve your character. If I have the eq and you are not able to get it, my skill advantage is amplified. This is the reason that the same few players always end up with the best eq. It is also the reason that steamrolling is even possible. Without access to eq, you simply cannot compete. Good players will always have the best eq anyways...this won't significantly change the game for them. It mostly affects everyone else.

Importantly, it will increase overall playing time as you can always improve your character. It will vastly lessen the pain of looting...both of which are very good for the health of the game.

So if everyone has access to eq. .how can we manage the huge surge in eq inflation?Through random stat distribution.

The other possible solution to our eq trouble is to vastly reduce the power (and thus importance) of eq and correspondingly strengthen class skillsets. I have already put forth a detailed proposal for that as well as my previous attempt to address FL's eq problem. Search for integrated paths if you want to see it (on mobile so can't link easily). Personally, both could be done together.

Nameless you contradict yourself in a way.   

So instead the solution is to allow eq to be restricted to those players who have massive hours...

Followed by asserting that "farming" equipment will help combat this issue. Farming favors those with tons of spare time to throw at the game. This will lead to players with much more spare time still getting much better EQ, most likely killing you before you can manage to farm out competing EQ, and possibly saccing the EQ you did manage to get and making you start all over again.

And again, with nothing but a hope that the equipment you spend your limited time trying to gather is up to snuff with your competition's EQ.

Celerity, I do believe there are quite a few benchmark pieces of EQ which could be used to determine the value of other pieces. Wicked trident, black dragonhide cape, slimy breastplate, Ssluthril, adamantium bands (probably one of the better arguments for toning titanium bracers considering they aren't much of an improvement over a common and are much harder to get), etc.

I do agree with P_body a lot. There is a tier system to EQ, and it's really kind of needed.

I hate to put it like this, but the community has gotten pretty soft over the last few years. it seems like a lot of these suggestions are about ways to make the game "easier". I do not like at all the notion that players that put in less time and effort should be equally rewarded as those that put in considerable time and effort. If I'm playing say, 5 hours a day, and you're playing an hour a day, and I am just as productive as you in the same time period, then what justifies you being rewarded in a similar fashion? The nature of any game is to get better "returns" for a better "investment". In fact, that's an idea that transcends gaming. I really think that any notion contrary to that is far worse. 

While, as I said, this change actually would benefit those with more time invested, you've stated that the intent is to shift away from that.

Six years ago, the thread would have ended with F0xx or L-A laughing at you and telling you to kill people for sometimes single pieces of gear at a time like everyone else. And really, what's wrong with that? Every class (with the exception of probably bards) can perform without the best EQ to kill people wearing slightly better EQ. The climb to the top *should *** be bloody. It should be difficult. It should not be turned into Diablo.

I think you are misunderstanding the scope of the random values...a unique titanium bracer is not going to be better than a common terminator...

I think you misunderstood my post entirely. I don't think I was that unclear in what I wrote, so the next logical step is that you didn't really read it.

So again, how do you balance everyone having great eq? Answer, Celerity says is: Stat randomization.

Okay, fine. So how is it randomized? Is it totally random? Of course not. There has to be some parameters and constraints so the great eq doesn't ever turn out too crappy and vice versa.

But here's the problem, how do you then LIMIT the amount of potential "unique" items available?

Best case for a currently unique item is roughly the same power as now. Best case for a currently rare item is slightly better than now (if you land a unique) and best case for a common item is significantly better than now (if you land a unique).

So the biggest changes in stat values will come from currently normal items. Currently unique items...which are very hard to get at all now...are always available. .but you won't always get the full power one...but at least you have a chance.

What it sounds like here, is that Celerity is saying "you don't." The net effect of this change is that you potentially increase the unqiue/great rare count.

Example:

1 = best possible stats

10= worst possible stats

Current adeptus stats let's say = 1

If adeptus eq stats were randomized, and there is ALWAYS a full suit of adeptus waiting in Gear, then how do you ensure that no more than two fulls suits of "eq stats = 1" isn't available?

Agai, it appears Celerity is saying "you don't."

But, if I'm mistaken and Celerity is saying you do monitor/moderate it, then I ask how is Celerity's idea any better than the system we have now except that there would then exist the possibility that x number of unique pieces in our current system would become x+n number of unique pieces, thereby increasing the overall unique pieces available.

All that does is allow for ALL the vets and elites to be running around in great eq instead of only a couple, while making eq gathering for a new or less skilled player even more murky and confusing and difficult.

As for the philosophical argument between random and hard-coded stats...that isn't the prime determiner of balance.

I don't know what you mean by this "philosophical argument." I didn't bring anything like this up, so if you were addressing something I said, please re-state because I don't know hwat you're talking about.

Hard-coded and random stats can have the exact same distribution of stats..it is a difference in how the content is awarded and generated...not in final balance.

This was the very point I was getting at. If you're trying to make a random stat distribution for all eq, how is that going to be a net improvement after all the time involved in making the change? I don't think it would be at all. Is the current system perfect? no. Would a randomized distribution be any better? No. Either way it wouldn't be "random." It would be moderated by a coder. Which means the same type of biases would exist and you're back to an "imperfect" system.

The main reason we want eq to be available is that when it is not available, there is no mechanism to improve your character.

But the post before this you said:

The main benefit of stat randomization is that...the eq is always in. If you go to a mob, you will always get something. This is very important, especially for lower level players who often don't get much out of the eq trips they are dragged to.

What's the MAIN reason you're even suggesting this? It sounds like the main end result is that more awesome eq is potentially available. Why?

Historically there have been very few players that could obtain , and even fewer who could then keep a godsuit. Lately it seems that more players are improving in skill level to be able to both gather and hold a "godsuit." That being said, why should we INCREASE the number of rares and potentially unique level stats? So that ALL the vets and elites can run around in uber suits? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes, great eq with great stats is very limited. Should we change that? Maybe, but I don't think so. And even if the answer is yes, a simple way to go about that is just raise the cap on uniques/rares in the current system.

Why put in the work to totally re-modify the game, (and make the water even more murky for new players) just so that those few who REALLY know what's going on can receive a greater benefit?

I don't get this at all. People wanna make a ring of accuracy has the same stats as an onyx ring, but still call it a ring of accuracy

I don't get this at all. People wanna make a ring of accuracy has the same stats as an onyx ring, but still call it a ring of accuracy

But it means you can always get a "ring of accuracy", and you can potentially have MORE Rings of Accuracy than currently available.

Why don't we have just one armour, call it God's armour and have a very wide set range of random stats. Then everyone can wear it and feel like a GOD!

Enethier:

Eq farming is going to happen either way. The difference here is how often you are able to do it. Of course the game will benefit those who play more. The primary goal is to get players playing as much as possible.

On the other hand...you don't need to spend as much time on eq to be viable as before. You could farm as much as you'd like for that extra 5% gear optimization. .if players want to do it, go for it (much like full training)...or you could go once and be sure to be within 15% or closer of your strongest potential competition. It becomes a personal choice. Please, please take a closer look at the point values and examples I gave. The variance is not nearly as great as you believe it to be.

Right now..you need to be very active just to be able to grab great gear...not to mention multiple 'farm' trips through the same area as different pieces become available...afterwards a conservative, inactive playstyle is rewarding to you as it lowers the chance you die and keeps you ahead of the competition artificially.

If you die..it may be looted or sacced. Same as before.

NO FLAMING.

A tiered EQ system only promotes tiered PK.

I also think you don't realize that this change would penalize players like me quite a bit. I am not the one complaining that certain gear I want isn't in. I'm stating that the current system gives me a huge, and large imbalanced, advantage over other players.

The problem isn't that the climb is difficult...the problem is that there isn't significant turnover at those top ranks. The skill in this game doesn't revolve around fighting tactics so much as as the metagame of keeping your competition weak and putting yourself in a position so you have no real threats.

Typing on a phone is slow..I'll address more clearly during my lunch break esp. towards P's post while I was typing

I don't think you're trying to pad your play time to make life easier for you Celerity. You're a top Pk'er, and from what I remember an excellent RP'er as well. My point still stands that this benefits the top tiers more, simply because more "great" equipment is available. That just means there will be a larger portion of the skilled players with great eq while the lesser skilled/knowledgeable players will still be at a disadvantage, and an even more marked disadvantage because they can't go to X spot/mob etc. to get X piece of gear. It's all random, and just makes it more muddy for the newbie player.

Which also means that almost everyone will ALWAYS be set up in that full suit of adeptus, helm of spell turning, magic bracelets, vorpal swords, arctrons, etc. How boring...You'll have three-5 sets of eq that people wear and the great majority of the areas in the game with mid-tier rares will get ignored. (From what I can see at least, you have a better chance of getting a "unique" piece with rare stats (adeptus) that is at least equal to a "rare" piece with unique stats (titanium fullplate), so given the choice I'll always go for Adeptus first, then go to Valcor if I think it's worth it.

Now that we have multiple points of view being discussed, I suggest we pause and take a step back.

What are all the benefits we can see to stat randomization?

Now what are all the disadvantages we can see to stat randomization?

(Brief bulleted list of concise one liners)

Celerity, I'll ask you to start. We can all go back and forth for an eternity without ever getting anywhere. If we make a list of pros/cons, we're likely to find a pro or a con that is significant to outweigh a lot of the other side. From that point, it can be better established if stat randomization is a good direction to take.

Are you opposed to this idea Celerity?

You are looking at this backward pbody. Look at it this way. I will get adeptus eq. I will get spell turning. I will get the pieces I want with decent success. You may not. Letting all players have access to randomized gear greatly reduces the gap between decked and half decked. Also if gear is always in the likelihood of a full loot goes down because people are to improving on a few assorted pieces tead of guaranteed upgrades and sacs

Ok, I think the best way is to go back and answer each question individually:

"What's to keep people from camping on a low level area and killing weak mobs 100's of times to see what randomly pops up until they get the god suit they're looking for?"

The items are based on the starting stats of the item. You can farm fiery daggers for 300 hours, but it is still going to be worse than an item 5 levels above it.

"You know the BOW (badass of the week) is totally suited up but you now have absolutely no idea how to compete" "EQ you went after had stats that were subpar, and there was no way for you to know that prior to investing time to acquire said EQ."

The BOW will be suited up in either system. The difference is here you'll have a chance to gather competitive eq instead of being stuck in the "I need to kill to the BOW to get good eq, but I need to get good eq to kill the BOW" loop. As it stands now, it is unlikely you'll be able to gather the gear you want (since it must be in before you can even attempt, assuming you CAN attempt), so I would take 'random' or 'subpar' eq over no or significantly worse eq.

"I think this idea is more immersing for those who have already mastered the art of obtaining so called god suits." "Randomizing eq makes the game more interesting for elites"

It is also immersing even for low level ranks/players. The incentive (note: not NEED) to look for gear is increased all around.

"You will also get much heavier looting across the board because what if your item x is better than my item x." "Nah, it actually means, that even if I have two terminators already, I will STILL loot yours, because they might be better than mine."

You could flip this argument around and say that looting is increased because I currently know what exactly items you need to be powerful (and thus can take them right away without having to look). Either way, I don't think it will change looting patterns significantly. If I have a terminator that I like, it's very unlikely you have one that is better (unless I feel you have better eq in general than me, i.e. you are significantly more established...in which I'd have been taking your bracelets in either system..)

"Sidenote: this kind of randomization might make moderate tier more attractive for those more likely to gain eq from mobs instead of pk."

Maybe...I don't have a strong feeling either way...I think there would be more stress on finding rare/unique versions of gear...but on the other hand..you could have as more 'high level' gear than currently..just not their unique versions.

"On the other hand, people who don't know how to kill those strong mobs, will kill them only once - when they manage to get a hold of a group, so they will end up with even weaker items that those of the vets, even if they have visually the same ones."

Compared to having visibly and much more statistically worse items?

"The only thing this change would bring to FL IMO, is to make the gap between vets and the rest even bigger." "[this change makes it] more murky and difficult for newer players." "The only benefit I see for this kind of implementation is for the elites"

If you believe this, it means you believe that eq is currently helping lower-skilled players more than higher-skilled players. I can't agree with that. Increasing access to eq will help those that don't normally have access to it (even if it isn't optimal access), not those that will always have access to it.

"[this change] is going to bridge gap between mid and high range eq."

Yes, in the sense that the point levels are tied to item level and it is much easier for developers to find level gaps in items than to try to cross-reference every stat on every item with other items looking for gaps.

"Instead of total eq randomization, we could just tone the god suits if the goal is bridging the gap."

Yes, it is possible and I'd recommend it actually, but toning and removing eq doesn't preserve variety and doesn't make for attractive content. You just have less options then, and nobody likes that.

"if eq was randomized, the ability to suit strategically would be INCREDIBLY difficult" "Brambus "X item is weapon. Type 2h polearm. affects int by 6. affects wis by -3. affects mana by 20. affects hitroll by -2."" "A titanium bracelet should not be more powerful than a broken terminator."

The actual variance isn't that great. Fullplate will still be mostly like fullplate. Let me give you an example for the whip in my post:

A deadly whip of bluish fire:

Level: 48 = 9.6 total points

Weapon type is whip = +2 points Damage is 7d6 (average 24) = +3.5 points Damage noun is whip. = +0 points Affects flame arrow by 25, level 48. = +0 points (cosmetic) Affects damroll by -1, level 48. = -0.5 points Affects hitroll by 4, level 48. = +2 points Weight: 30/30/30 (10th pounds) = +1 points Material: fire = +1 point Rare item. = -3 points

= 6 total points

With randomization, it may gain the unique flag, giving it a couple points, when selected at random turn out to be:

(as above and:) avg damage +1 burnproof

Knowing your gear is still important and you can still take a look at someone and know generally what it is, but you can't be absolutely sure about every piece.

"because you won't know what their score sheet looks like to suggest modifications."

If you know their score sheet from glancing at their eq, you are pretty skilled. This won't confuse lower-skilled players as they wouldn't know regardless. It adds variance to the upper tier in terms of tactics though, since I can't be exactly sure what your stats are, even if I have a general idea.

"It removes a lot of strategy from the game"

I can't think of any way how this would remove strategy. If anything, it increases it somewhat...unless by strategy you mean knowing when purges happen and have access to locate object.

"to give more power to those with lots of time."

...or it gives more power to those with less time, as they will have some access to equipment.

"This idea will turn FL into Diablo 2.  Not a fan."

Does using AC turn it into dungeons and dragons? Does having HP turn it into any other RPG? Did Diablo using this idea turn it into nethack or rogue? Not at all. Just because you have a similar system (cosmetically even, as it isn't even related to drops or sets like in diablo), doesn't mean your game has become the same as another. We have a socket system. Did we become diablo after that?

"it makes you potentially spend an exponentially greater time gathering EQ" "those with huge amounts of spare time."

You currently spend the entire career of your character gathering equipment. I waited two years on Anamus to get powerfists and never once had access to them. I had even killed the holders (multiple!) times, but since it is bound, there is no possible way to ever get that piece. People likewise waited that long for gear I held (which had exactly zero turnover in the two years). In our system now, you spend a lot of time gearing. This won't change that. It does change when you are able to do that.

The new system allows you to make steady progress on your gear instead of being stuck on the bottom of the gap against a godsuit. You might not be able to gather a godsuit, but you will be able to make progress on your equipment at least, which is a lot better than now for most players.

So no, I don't believe you'd spend any more time actually gathering gear, and especially not an 'exponentially greater' amount. You'd a save A LOT of waiting time while removing an impassable barrier to most characters in the game.

"I think people place far too much importance on EQ anyway"

Yes, it makes up 49% of our game's balance considering skillsets to be the other half.

"That aside, what justifies common EQ being significantly better than what it is now?"

Common gear that is stronger than now becomes the gear that bridges the current gap between common and good gear.

"So then shouldn't the change be either increasing the amount of rare" "rebalancing the EQ to be more equal in power?" "a simple way to go about that is just raise the cap on uniques/rares in the current system."

This just leads to massive inflation and identical suits. It doesn't preserve variety and devalues the equipment. Equal POTENTIAL, but not identical.

"Balancing should use as few variables as possible in static cases such as equipment, which has a value that does not change based on anything else."

Equipment value are static, but equipment access is not static. There are two issues to consider here. This isn't introducing any new variables in equipment...it is altering the ones we currently use, thereby creating a variable in assessing equipment. Technically speaking, my change won't empower or depower equipment in terms of stat distribution.

"That's why most games with equipment or item rewards will actually steer away from randomly generated stats in favor of hard-coded stats which are balanced against all other options of equal investment or rewarded for equal skill."

That isn't a factual statement. Repeating what I posted earlier, this change forces the developers to take a good look at equipment distribution in a logical and quantifiable manner. Most competitive online games in our genre that have pvp (think MMOs) have random distribution and for good reason.

"Second, instituting stat randomization just undermines the work the staff has done to create varied mid-tier rares."

Not at all. Those items would still have their place and be affected by randomization as well. They'd still play the same bridging role. Remember, it uses the base item's stats, so those varied items will be randomized based on their varied core stats. They will not become the same as each other.

"Third, why do we want all eq available all the time?"

The alternative is to give the best EQ to those that can keep it. Just because something is in the game doesn't mean you have the capability to get it, and if you do, it may not be exactly what you want. This idea improves access, not quality of equipment.

"Will the stat randomization be truly random?"

No, it will take the core stats of a weapon and randomly add/remove flags based on the rarity.

"If that's true you have no way of moderating the number of great eq pieces that have been spun up, so everyone will go for adeptus."

Yes, currently many people do go for adeptus. Those who die will quickly lose it, but at least they have a chance to get it back in next year. This is key.

"I don't think I was that unclear in what I wrote, so the next logical step is that you didn't really read it."

Of course I read it..I'm not like most people and just skip over posts.

"So again, how do you balance everyone having great eq?" "That being said, why should we INCREASE the number of rares and potentially unique level stats? "

Just because everybody has access to great gear does not mean everybody will have it. There is more to getting/keeping gear than it just being available.

"But here's the problem, how do you then LIMIT the amount of potential "unique" items available?"

You keep them in areas that are not easy to get to and keep the unique flag rare enough. If it is 10%, that is 10 runs. They will still be very 'unique'. How long would it take you to do ten gear runs and be the one to get the unique gear in those runs? Compare that to the time you'd have to wait offline for someone to lose the same unique piece. Plus you have natural limiters through crumbling, etc. as we have now. You don't need to put an artificial limit on the total number of unique counts for each item, so no, you don't monitor those numbers as staff. You may monitor the unique rate, though, if inflation/deflation is problem which is easy to change.

"I don't know what you mean by this "philosophical argument." I didn't bring anything like this up, so if you were addressing something I said, please re-state because I don't know hwat you're talking about."

I think I was referring to Enethier in that about static vs random values in balance for games.

"how is that going to be a net improvement after all the time involved in making the change"

Improves eq access and improves eq variety, both of which improve incentive to be logged in.

"It would be moderated by a coder. Which means the same type of biases would exist and you're back to an "imperfect" system."

Yes, and coders are typically much, MUCH better at balance than builders. Even if the builders were very capable, it takes a singular design vision and 10 excellent builders won't be able to balance as a single one in terms of cross-area eq balance. Builders build areas, they don't worry about mud-wide equipment balance so much. Obvious ones are checked by higher staff, but there isn't a clear system of balancing equipment and it would be very, very, very time-consuming to do it manually (more time with less benefit--which is why in all these years, the staff hasn't manually gone in and done the equipment rebalancing).

"What's the MAIN reason you're even suggesting this? It sounds like the main end result is that more awesome eq is potentially available. Why?"

Both of my answers were the same: increasing access to more levels of players.

"even more marked disadvantage because they can't go to X spot/mob etc. to get X piece of gear."

Actually, they can. Right now, they could go there and be confused because nothing is there. I'm not suggesting to randomize DROPS..just a (slight) randomization of the stats.

P:

Spent my 1.5 hours typing this reply up, so no time at the moment to make a list of pros and cons. If it will help, sure, I'd be happy to do it. Will do it as soon as I can, but currently they are just buried in these posts.

• It does not help new players to have inconsistent items, even if the base values do not change more than a few points on your table in either direction. Example: An exceptionally low score on a higher level item tricks the newer player into thinking that a slightly lower level item with a max score is better, and will lead them to use a usually subpar item.

Having stats you can see, identify, and compare is most helpful for players that do not know equipment. Our current system does this better than a point-range based RNG.

One BOW is not generally the problem with EQ availability. There are others that hold the EQ you want in order to crush the BOW. Kill them for it. 

How does it make it more immersing? Essentially all this suggestion does is put the burden of balancing equipment on the playtimes of the entirety of the playerbase. I enjoy RPing and PKing more than I do farming gear.

No matter what, with this suggestion you will need to farm EQ more. Even if the maximum difference in EQ is 5% of base value, that is still a large gap for a single piece of equipment. You'll actually have accomplished nothing, unless your luck is superb and your EQ strength difference balances out or actually improves. Assume that your nemesis has more playtime than you, and has accumulated the maximum values of each piece of EQ. Be generous to you and say its still only a 2% increase in effectiveness per item. That's still a 20% increase in EQ effectiveness, assuming an equality in value among each piece (not all that true, but a 2% average is also very generous in the favor of the lesser geared). That's still a huge difference in EQ. So then what does this -actually- do for anyone other then make them spend more time farming EQ?

There is no way around it: You need to min/max to compete with the top-tier PKers. Many of the EQ differences currently are overstated simply because of this min/max mindset already adopted by us as players.

League of Legends, the largest PvP game in the world, abolished their RNGs because of their negative side effects on game balance. World of Warcraft does not use RNGs either, instead adopting a PPM system for all seemingly random effects (critical hits and weapon effects/enchantments, even block/parry/dodge/miss does not use a RNG). In fact, the only real random aspect to equipment is the damage dealt per hit (which works much like the system we use). Their equipment stat values are also not randomized for anything other than the most basic of items In WoW that are used as interim as you travel from one level cap to another. No PvP content makes use of equipment with randomly generated values. These are the two most successful PvP content games on the market.

You can't take two pieces of the same equipment, give them different values, and call it balanced. It's not. Balance requires statistical normality. Saying "At best it is this" and "At worst it is that" doesn't do anything for balance, and it certainly doesn't do anything to promote healthy competition. Somebody is always going to feel left behind, because they thought their equipment was equal to their enemy's, but were sorely mistaken, and their enemy was able to capitalize on their bad estimation. With the current system, you can at least look at their EQ. Even if you don't know the exact stats of every item, you can see how much better their EQ is on average.

To jump back to new players, you can't really believe this will help them. 1: they don't know the items in the first place, so how will they even know how the item can vary (or even that it can). 2: They still don't know where to go to get the items, even if they knew the item's stats/ranges, and thus they will still be poorly dressed in comparison. 3: Consistency is the single most important thing for new players to a text based game, since they cannot rely on visual representation for their location, their class, their equipment, their race, or any other pertinent information to the game. We already have a huge learning curve that scares away a lot of potential players. I know, I've brought 7 in the last year, and 6 out of 7 quit because they couldn't get the hang of it (the other quit because they were full looted and lost, so they got angry), Imagine going to a physics class where the equations kept changing slightly and every day their was a quiz and it was a big game of Russian Roulette to see if the equation was the same as it was when you learned about it. That is the sensation that random EQ will bring to new players. This is not a fix that helps them.

Ok. Your point has been seen. And it has been offered a counter point. To which you replied with your original points? Your assuming that people will grind repeatedly to get the best piece possible, completely ignoring the fact that gear is le in abundance. If your telling me you would rather fight in a centurions hauberk than a slightlynrandomized adeptus torso you are being extremely ignorant to the purpose of tthis suggestion