Challenges

[Raargant]

With regards to Suunmar's fight with Taeim, Taeim was in a class literally COMPLETELY tailored to fight against Suunmar.

Then again, Suunmar is a combination that is completely tailored to fight most melees.

So I don't think using that fight is a very good judge. Just 2c.

[Acerbity]

Yet I've used an ogre warrior dressed in mithril, teeth necklaces, onyx rings, and a couple rare (yet easily enough obtained) weapons to down a well-dressed shaman (Yes, he was flying, yes, he had prot shield, yes, he had sanc, no, I didn't kill him by lucky timing from one of those falling). You can be wrong and say that it was because he was playing badly, or you can be right and say it had more to do with my weapon choice, the number of gyvels/vials I had, my picking the location of battle (Rheydin and directly surrounding areas so I had access to plague/poison curing), and my chasing really, really fast.

I do not deny the importance of EQ, particularly for melees. But communers, to be very effective, require good eq as well. All that +hp/ac/saves eq is what makes them strong. If they've got no hp-boosting eq, they're not going to be able to sit in a fight against a warrior dualing weapons they dont' know for 10 rounds at a time trying to land stuff. If they've got no saves, any other mage/communer will roll over them. EQ is important for everybody, somewhat moreso for melees, but this is balanced by them being able to get eq faster and easier.

I can safely say that your example isn't much of one. Sure, ogres are vulnerable to magic, but they can easily overcome it with the ungodly ammount of HP they have. An ogre who uses sanctuary and has ready use of it (lots of vials/around a place to keep a steady sanctuary/staff of sanctuary) should never, EVER die to a shaman. The only way I got ogres, usually (my worst enemy as Glaien) were taking them far away after cursing them and deteorating them with a certain cabal skill/luring them away from cities/temples. An ogre in mithril and sanctuary can easily run off a well-armored shaman.

[Zrothum]

Run off, perhaps. But, a smart communer should escape 90% of their fights.

[Acerbity]

Well, several times I actually went around and equipped for purely AC armor to take down those ogre warriors who were ungodly decked and completely prepared for me. Rongdaj killed me in three or four rounds (massacres and mangles through sanctuary, if I remember correctly) when I was in an almost perfect suit for a shaman. I had +2 to spell and everything, and never managed to land a damn thing aside from deteriorate; then I'd get my *** handed to me.

I clocked about -600ac with potions and herbs to -my ac more from -400 with basically warrior eq. It helped a little bit, and I was able to last long enough to land essential spells to take down some ogre warriors.

I never did take Rongdaj down alone though, which was a pity...

And yes, all communers/casters should easily escape any fight thrown their way. It all depends on whose attacking them most of the time though.

[goldbond]

of course irl a cleric and other mages will do whatever with you. prot shield and flying? lol bye. only an idiot would let you as a melee get a take down. maybe someone who doesnt know when to re-engage or engage at all as a shaman, or a laughing invoker. you're done, notwithstanding cabal, qrace, or any other unorthodox adjustments. any one-time spell take down is nothing compared to someone who can flee and recast, one warrior pick comes to mind as cure all.

[L-A]

Unless you're an evil cleric...

Or a DK...

Acer: A melee doing that much damage vs a shaman isn't really any different you just have to be more spot on with your strategy since the margin for error is small.

Communers are the most survivable - and if you want to be a puss and only think of getting out alive you will 99% of the time. Of course, you won't actually kill anyone....

[mya]

Yehh, i cannot recall dying on my halfling cleric...

Adn never killed anyone.

But even communer can die.

Some classes/ things can prevent your recall and then it all becomes a matter of who runs faster.

Healers, cannot gate with dirt in eyes. This killed me a lot.

Mounted clerics cannot portal.

Blind Paladins cannot quaff recalls.

But the main death vs Evil clerics is sermon.

[L-A]

But the main death vs Evil clerics is sermon.

\

You do realise that -50svmental cures this don't you? Try it, you'll like it

L-A

[Deykari]

\

You do realise that -50svmental cures this don't you? Try it, you'll like it

L-A

I would argue against this, in both my many experiences against Evil Clerics and as my recent experience as one (and I think many would agree), because Sermon lands quite easily, even with someway decent saves. With my Cleric, the only person I ever had trouble landing Sermon on was Helmsley, and that was when he was decked out. A couple of people (or at least one) have posted how they've had saves in mental over -100 and minister has consistently landed.

Everybody always gets the ultra-high mental saves for some reason, to try and stop sermon. Does nobody stop to think that by trying to get good enough saves to stop minister, you may well be sacrificing afflictive/mal saves, which are also very important against a cleric.

At the end of the day, minister will eventually land regardless of your saves, and when it does, do you really want to be lacking in the other departments? If you're supremely decked out then it might not be as much as a problem but when you're getting EQ to tailor towards fighting an Evil Cleric, I would rather get some decent afflictive saves to cut down on path damage as much as possible, which will give more time to lay some beat down on the cleric.

With all of my characters, I have fought with mental saves against Evil Clerics, and then tried concentrating a little more on aff/mal saves, and have noticed huge differences in my efforts against them. I'm not saying to completely neglect mental though, that's just asking for a dispel.

Minister lands very easily - that's not neccessarily a bad thing, just that instead of trying to block that spell, I think it's worth trying to block what they can do to you whilst minstered.

Dey

[Pali]

I can safely say that your example isn't much of one. Sure' date=' ogres are vulnerable to magic, but they can easily overcome it with the ungodly ammount of HP they have. An ogre who uses sanctuary and has ready use of it (lots of vials/around a place to keep a steady sanctuary/staff of sanctuary) should never, EVER die to a shaman. The only way I got ogres, usually (my worst enemy as Glaien) were taking them far away after cursing them and deteorating them with a certain cabal skill/luring them away from cities/temples. An ogre in mithril and sanctuary can easily run off a well-armored shaman.[/quote']

Exactly my point. Any melee can fight off a communer if he knows how to fight them.

[Iyorvin]

Smirk. That fight comes down to speed, and is not based on whether or not the shaman has a vuln, or how shamans are a weaker class. I just want to laugh now.

[mya]

Mealers have a advantage vs Communers/ Evil Clerics.

They can dirt.

Dirt is one of the most powerfull skill in a fight.

And warrior especialy can Dirt and disarm the shield. With that the cleric will defend what ? One in four attacks ?

Dualing and doing 33 damage a attack. You can get from 100 to 200 damage a round. They flee and you lead with murder and thats...

Open -> Dirt

Round 1 Laged Land perhaps half the attacks. 100 dam

Round 2 Laged Land perhaps half the attacks. +100 dam

Shield disarm

Round 3 Laged Land perhaps half the attacks. +150 dam

Cleric runs. 1 round head start, but is blind.

Chase, Charge. +100 dam

Round 4 Laged Land perhaps half the attacks. +150 dam

Cleric recalls.

You did 600+ damage. Clerics tend to have 800. My elven clerics has 650. All saves. My human cleric 1 prac has 750 HP's base.

He had opurtunity to land 3 spells.

[Zrothum]

lolwaffles

In a perfect world, maybe.

[HBwillie]

Mealers!

[Iyorvin]

Guys can it. She's right. I am sorry, but I just can't argue with that logic.

[Deykari]

Seeing as you're assuming a lot of things, we'll assume some too.

Warrior dirt kicks

Shaman/Cleric lands curse

Round 1 Laged Land perhaps half the attacks. 100 dam

Round 2 Laged Land perhaps half the attacks. +100 dam

Shaman lands enfeeble/Cleric lands minister

Warrior shield disarms.

Communer flees, cures up the health he's just lost, runs about a bit, catches the tick for mana and wears one of his back-up shields.

Communer runs. 1 round head start, but is blind. (not really, because that communer would have ran the moment he was shield-disarmed whilst blinded)

Chase (and runs low on moves assuming he's enfeebled by the shaman), Charge. +100 dam

Round 4 Laged Land perhaps half the attacks. +150 dam

Shaman suffers one round of lag, lands a plague

etc. etc.

You posted all of that, Mya, but you didn't take into account that the communer would be inputting commands also, and that they wouldn't stick around to take a beating - they can cure, remember.

Dey

[Iyorvin]

My hero.

[corpsestomp]

I can almost guarantee that any communer that has their shield disarmed will be off to the races.

If the disarm fails and they land the sermon, they flee, cure up a bunch, the hour hits, they come back in for 3-4 free paths. The melee is gonna be the one hurting. Not to mention the mals they landed, from path, in the process.