DK's and religion

[WagesofSin]

So now that DK's got some changes based on religion does that mean going athiest/agnostic will seriously gimp you or do those "religions" also give you some benefits?

[Anithraril]

Uh, athiest and agnostic aren't religions.

And on reflection, that is all that needs to be said here.

[Pali]

Uh, athiest and agnostic aren't religions.

And on reflection, that is all that needs to be said here.

Quite right.

[Behrens]

Uh, athiest and agnostic aren't religions.

And on reflection, that is all that needs to be said here.

You haven't run into enough atheists. They're among the most devout people to their faith in lack of faith that I know.

[Pali]

I'm an atheist. If you can give me solid evidence for the existence of a god, I'll change my mind. Until then, I'm happy with my lack of faith.

For further clarification, there are two types of atheism: weak and strong. Weak atheists lack belief in a deity, which is a negative position. It asserts nothing. Strong atheists believe that a deity does not and cannot exist, which is a positive assertion. I would agree with you 100% that strong atheism is a faith, as you cannot in any way prove that a god doesn't exist. Weak atheism, however, is the skeptic asking for reason to believe. So far, I've not been given any convincing reasons. It's also known as agnostic atheism.

[Iyorvin]

/smirk

[Behrens]

I'm an atheist. If you can give me solid evidence for the existence of a god, I'll change my mind. Until then, I'm happy with my lack of faith.

For further clarification, there are two types of atheism: weak and strong. Weak atheists lack belief in a deity, which is a negative position. It asserts nothing. Strong atheists believe that a deity does not and cannot exist, which is a positive assertion. I would agree with you 100% that strong atheism is a faith, as you cannot in any way prove that a god doesn't exist. Weak atheism, however, is the skeptic asking for reason to believe. So far, I've not been given any convincing reasons. It's also known as agnostic atheism.

Pali, that's like my colorblind uncle saying "If you can give me solid evidence for the existence of color, I'll change my mind". He's fully aware that there are differences in the length of spectra of light, but sees only light and dark.

An atheist, likewise, sees the world, but sees only natural phenomena, despite the fact that the majority of humanity can see and feel the spiritual world, he assumes himself wiser than all in seeing nothing where they know substance, when in fact he is merely blind (either willfully or through trauma-inflicted lack) to the spiritual.

I can give you reason after reason, but in the end, each person must overcome his spiritual blindness on his own.

Were I to point to the fact that all of creation is more complex, and more finely tuned than any diamond watch any Swiss artisan has ever designed, you would merely point to the testimony of the likewise blind, ignoring the passion of the many devout who study creation.

Arguments about color cannot exist between the colorblind and the sighted, and likewise the spiritual man and the atheist speak on different planes.

(After rereading this, I've decided to leave it as posted. It may come across harsh, and is not meant to. It is, however, what I truly believe, so take it as that.)

[Pali]

A colorblind person can be given solid evidence to support the claim that different wavelengths of light are interpreted as different colors. He can be shown spectrometer readings, analyses of how his eyes are different from the eyes of a normal person, etc. If you or anyone else can give me something along these lines for the existence of a spiritual world, please do. I will not be convinced by experiences of others or myself that can be explained by physical means. Every single time a parapsychological claim is made, be it ghosts, telekinesis, telepathy, seeing angels, NONE of this has ever been shown to be true in any scientific sense. The majority of people believing in a spiritual world does not make it any more true than when the majority of people believed the world was flat. I understand the draw of religion, and honestly, I'd love to be convinced that there's a loving Father god that'll watch over me in life and death, but I have NO reason to believe this. Grant me such reason, and I'll gladly convert. Would never go Christian, as the Biblical God is a sadistic, narcissistic prick, but I'd love to be able to be a deist.

[Pali]

To be honest, though, I'd rather not continue a religious debate at the moment. I've spent the past two months debating religion and the soul in philosophy, and I've been defending my atheism (ironically, a position that logically requires no defense, as it asserts absolutely nothing, whereas theism asserts something) for years before that as well. Kind of tired of doing so.

[Dale]

Proof there is a God.

Balinor.

How else would we all be able to tie our differences together and all come to one single agreement.

We hate Balinor. I mean, it's almost TOO perfect to be just a coincidence.

[Pali]

*laughs*

[Iyorvin]

Wow Pali, need to back off on name calling. There are many christians here and because YOU think that about him, does not mean it is true. We have usually kept these topics off the forum, but if you want to go that route fine, just keep it tactful. Your post was fine up until that point, where you probably offended 30-50% of the pbase.

Peace

[Pali]

I do not understand how anyone can read the Old Testament and not come away with that conclusion. He curses all of humanity for the actions of two people, he wipes out civilizations that he doesn't like, he kills innocents and revels in it... if you'd like, I can find you all the relevant verses. I do not mean to offend any Christians, but any unbiased reading of the Bible will show that the Old Testament God is a very, very harsh character.

[Chayesh]

Two fallacies of logic in your argument, Pali.

1. Lack of physical evidence to the positive is not evidence to the contrary. An absence of quantifiable visible "evidence" of God (actually something I'd dispute but that's a whole other discussion) does not "prove" His non-existence. It simply shows a lack of a viable means of "measuring" God.

2. Deists believe nothing of a loving Father God who watches and protects anyone. Commonly referred to as "The Watchmaker Theology", typical Deist beliefs are that God created everything, set it in motion, and stepped away, similar to a watchmaker who winds a watch and lets it run on its own internal mechanics. Deist ideology is also often similar to Natural Law theology in that they believe that the universe continues to operate under a set of natural laws that govern the forces in motion. Interestingly, it is exactly these same natural laws that dispel the theories of both the Big Bang and Evolution.

[Iyorvin]

Look Pali, just because you can't understand something doesn't mean it can't be correct. At any rate, I HAVE read them all, but I will keep my opinions to myself regarding such, as by me saying anything would be foolish. And not you, nor I, or any in this world can define 'Innocent'.

Peace.

[Pali]

You're quite correct that lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. But this is not an answer to the skeptic's challenge. "It's true because there's no evidence for it" is not how science works, and it's not an argument any rational human being would accept in any situation outside of religion.

As for deists, you are quite right. I didn't mean to say they did, I just worded things somewhat badly so it seemed that's what I meant. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

[Pali]

Look Pali, just because you can't understand something doesn't mean it can't be correct. At any rate, I HAVE read them all, but I will keep my opinions to myself regarding such, as by me saying anything would be foolish. And not you, nor I, or any in this world can define 'Innocent'.

Peace.

Slaughtering all the first born children in Egypt because one man (The Pharoah) would not release the Hebrews (read closely: God kept hardening his heart so that he wouldn't; Pharoah was going to do so at several points, and God just wanted to hurt the Egyptians) is in no possible way a moral action.

[Behrens]

A colorblind person can be given solid evidence to support the claim that different wavelengths of light are interpreted as different colors. He can be shown spectrometer readings' date=' analyses of how his eyes are different from the eyes of a normal person, etc. If you or anyone else can give me something along these lines for the existence of a spiritual world, please do. I will not be convinced by experiences of others or myself that can be explained by physical means. Every single time a parapsychological claim is made, be it ghosts, telekinesis, telepathy, seeing angels, NONE of this has ever been shown to be true in any scientific sense. The majority of people believing in a spiritual world does not make it any more true than when the majority of people believed the world was flat. I understand the draw of religion, and honestly, I'd love to be convinced that there's a loving Father god that'll watch over me in life and death, but I have NO reason to believe this. Grant me such reason, and I'll gladly convert. Would never go Christian, as the Biblical God is a sadistic, narcissistic prick, but I'd love to be able to be a deist.[/quote']

Your very base assumption is flawed. You assume that everything must be proven by science and reason. This is assumption, and one that I do not subscribe to, nor do the majority of people of faith. Yet, like every other secularist, your assumption must be accomidated by them, not vice-versa.

You forget that when the majority of people believed the earth to be flat, it was due to the fact that the educated and wise taught them it was. There is a difference between observing yourself and taking the word of experts. To me, there is far more evidence of the existance of a trancendental G-d than there is of landing on the moon, but if I were to claim the second false, you would declare me a lunatic (pardon the pun). The reason that billions believe in the spiritual is because billions have felt it, just as billions believe in color, despite the fact there are those who will never see it. As I said, my uncle knows of the existance of color, and is aware that most can distinguish shades of light and dark he cannot. This does not in and of itself prove color. I can distinguish between spiritualities, as can many, but you do not accept it as proof of spirituality.

There is also a difference between "belief" and seeing. Spiritual people are not believing something they have no evidence for, but rather experiencing something that cannot be measured by science, for it is trancendental and at right angles to the universe. It is for this reason that post-Christian thought is really a lapse into animism and primitivism. For in embracing the refusal of all but reason, the scientist loses what it is to be human. Any animal can learn of his world, with detail increasing to the size of his brain. That humans are smart enough to learn about creation in incredible detail is truly amazing, but not evidence for the lack of deity in the universe. Humanity's essence IS his spirituality. It is the one true thing that separates him from the animal.

Your final statement makes me think that your blindness results from spiritual trauma, not from inherent defect. It sounds as if you were harmed by a Christian, and as a result rebelled against G-d himself, as if every one of those who speak His name are doing His exact bidding, which any Christian will tell you is false.

[Iyorvin]

In the old testiment it was accepted, 'An eye for an eye.' There are many harsh and brutal things you can take from the Old Testiment, but is also the reason I am not Jewish, and yes, am Christian. And the Christian God is Jesus, now go read the new testiment, and if you already have, then it should make more sense. At any rate, I better stop reading this crap, pretty upset you called my God a Prick.

Peace.

[Chayesh]

I do not understand how anyone can read the Old Testament and not come away with that conclusion. He curses all of humanity for the actions of two people' date=' he wipes out civilizations that he doesn't like, he kills innocents and revels in it... if you'd like, I can find you all the relevant verses. I do not mean to offend any Christians, but any unbiased reading of the Bible will show that the Old Testament God is a very, very harsh character.[/quote']

Of course it would appear that way when you attribute human nature to God's actions. Someone like us, flawed and imperfect, demanding worship and adoration, is narcissistic. Why would I want to worship someone like me, flawed and imperfect, and indeed why would they deserve any such behavior? If you view God in His proper context, however, perfectly just, perfectly holy, as the Judeo-Christian doctrine presents, then God is justified in requiring such things and a certain code of behavior as His superior wisdom, power, and persona would demand it.

Every judgment of God in the Bible was a direct result in some way of disobedience of His commands. If, as Judeo-Christian doctrine presents, He is perfect in all aspects of His person, then indeed to disobey Him is complete foolishness as well as wrong.

Of course, this has nothing to do with DK's.

Forget hijacked...this thread's been malformed.

[Streetfighter]

If it gets too high you won't be able to lock OR delete it.

Malformed thread FTW.

[WagesofSin]

Wow. I too am an athiest and frankly, Behrens, I find your blind accusation of our "spiritual blindness" mildly offensive. I'm sure you would take offense at people calling your belief narrow minded or irrational.

This appeal to "feeling" something spiritual is irrelevant. Some people say they "feel" something, others don't. It is NOT universal. There are plenty of secular religions as well which don't praise a central deity and truth is, most people who claim to believe in god pretty muc hact and behave as if there weren't. Is there any evidence of this god you speak of Behrens? Besides this "feeling" that some people might have. Also, might I add that the fine-tuning arguement has been shattered to bits.

[Pali]

Forget hijacked...this thread's been malformed.

*laughs* Very true. As much as I'd love to respond to the above, as I said, I'm tired of defending my atheism. There are certain differences of opinion that will not be changed by arguing here, and I have no desire to continue doing so. My apologies for dragging this on, and I honestly meant in no way to offend anybody here, though religious discussion always seems to have that side-affect. Anyone whose feelings I've hurt, I apologize to as well.

P.S. Wages, nice to know I'm not the only atheist here.

[Fiere]

Well, as long as we're on the subject, I'll throw my own little monkey wrench in. Be aware, however, that I base a lot of my theology on additional scriptures to the bible and on revelations or prophets today, not just back in the day. Anyway, as to the Pharao thing, I happen to believe that G-d did not harden his heart, but that comes under the aformentioned reasoning, and stems from the fact that the bible has been mistranslated a ridiculous number of times, even though I happen to think it still has great religious value. As for belief in God, well..."Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things...that ye would ask God...if these things are not true. And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the holy ghost. And by the power of the holy ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:3-5) I can say that I personally have seen men feel this power, although like others have said, you have to feel it yourself, rather than relying on the testimony of others.

EDIT: And apologies in advance for extending the thread, but someone's gotta represent us. Shoot, a whole lot of people don't even think we're Christian, for some crazy reason.

[WagesofSin]

Also, Berhens, please tell me how to discover this "spiritual" feeling you speak of. If it is so ever present, then what can I do to find it? What did you do to find it? How did you come to your conclusion? I am genuinely interested, if there is a god then I trully would like to know about it.