DK's and religion

[Pali]

Your final statement makes me think that your blindness results from spiritual trauma' date=' not from inherent defect. It sounds as if you were harmed by a Christian, and as a result rebelled against G-d himself, as if every one of those who speak His name are doing His exact bidding, which any Christian will tell you is false.[/quote']

Sorry, just have to respond to this quickly. I've never been traumatized by a Christian in any way. I've been an atheist since I was about twelve, and it had nothing to do with abuse in any form. My opinions on the Biblical God have been formed purely through reading the Bible.

[Fiere]

Also, Berhens, please tell me how to discover this "spiritual" feeling you speak of.

*cough* read my previous post. That's how.

[Pali]

*cough* read my previous post. That's how.

Re-read your own post. Faith is stated as a requisite for any sort of test. You have to already believe.

[Behrens]

Wow. I too am an athiest and frankly, Behrens, I find your blind accusation of our "spiritual blindness" mildly offensive. I'm sure you would take offense at people calling your belief narrow minded or irrational.

This appeal to "feeling" something spiritual is irrelevant. Some people say they "feel" something, others don't. It is NOT universal. There are plenty of secular religions as well which don't praise a central deity and truth is, most people who claim to believe in god pretty muc hact and behave as if there weren't. Is there any evidence of this god you speak of Behrens? Besides this "feeling" that some people might have. Also, might I add that the fine-tuning arguement has been shattered to bits.

I cannot understand how you would find it offensive to be blind to something you do not believe exists. Am I missing something in this argument?

My belief is founded in reason, for all reason points to the Truth. However, this does not mean that reason is everything. I disagree that people act as if there were no G-d. Jihadis the world around certainly act as if Allah were true. Otherwise, suicide would not be a rational choice. Christians in North Korea and other repressive regimes act as if there were One True G-d, or they would renounce their faith, and walk free. Instead, they denounce Juche (the state religion of NK), and die for their faith.

Hard evidence of G-d is everywhere, in everything. I can see it everytime I move my fingers, and every time I hear music, see color, and take a breath. That you cannot is not evidence against it. I see G-d when I derive the Euler equation, when I study the behaviour of engineered systems under stress. When I do Maxwell's equations, I see the hand of a powerful Creator behind them. When I study the relativistic events near the frontiers of space, I see G-d's design.

The fine-tuning argument has been "shattered" by secular experts you rely on. Brilliant spiritual men have also come to faith through it, including Albert Einstein. As with everything, you can either see it, or not.

I cannot tell any person how to experience spirituality. I am not an evangelist. There are many who have that gift, but I am not one.

[WagesofSin]

I've read much of the bible.

Also you can't "ask" god anything if you don't already believe in him. That's the way logic works. First find the evidence of god, then I'll ask because I'll know where/to whom to ask. Again this is simply the way reason works. I've asked the christian god, I've asked Alah, I've even called out to Thor and there is no "feeling".

I ask you religious folks, have you read any other religious text other than the bible? You do know people read the Bhagavad-gita and other non-monotheistic books and still claim to "feel" something(even Buddhists, Taoists, Confuscianists). Maybe it's just a feeling of peace, why call it god always? Hell, even atheist feel wonder when they climb a mountain and gaze at the earth beneath them. It really is amazing, but it's not evidence of god.

[Fiere]

Re-read your own post. Faith is stated as a requisite for any sort of test. You have to already believe.

Apologies, Pally, I just didn't want to go around quoting the whole Book of Mormon to everyone, but I seemed to have missed an essential part. Couple verses later: "And ye may know that he (Christ) is, by the power of the holy ghost..."

[Pali]

Hell' date=' even atheist feel wonder when they climb a mountain and gaze at the earth beneath them. It really is amazing, but it's not evidence of god.[/quote']

Thank you.

[Fiere]

I've felt them both, and I can tell you it's quite different. Seeing mountains isn't the reason I get up in the morning. But you don't know it until you feel it.

[Pali]

Apologies' date=' Pally, I just didn't want to go around quoting the whole Book of Mormon to everyone, but I seemed to have missed an essential part. Couple verses later: "And ye may know that he (Christ) is, by the power of the holy ghost..."[/quote']

Well, when the power of the holy ghost appears to me, then I'll believe. Until then...

[Behrens]

I've read much of the bible.

Also you can't "ask" god anything if you don't already believe in him. That's the way logic works. First find the evidence of god, then I'll ask because I'll know where/to whom to ask. Again this is simply the way reason works. I've asked the christian god, I've asked Alah, I've even called out to Thor and there is no "feeling".

I ask you religious folks, have you read any other religious text other than the bible? You do know people read the Bhagavad-gita and other non-monotheistic books and still claim to "feel" something(even Buddhists, Taoists, Confuscianists). Maybe it's just a feeling of peace, why call it god always? Hell, even atheist feel wonder when they climb a mountain and gaze at the earth beneath them. It really is amazing, but it's not evidence of god.

There is a misconception that Christians believe that the only spiritual force is G-d. I do not, nor do most who study scripture. There are many spiritual forces, some good, some evil. I believe that those who read the Bhagavad-gita are truly communing with the spiritual, as are Islamicists, Shintoist, etc. The first step is admitting to the existance of the spiritual. At that point, the decision between which path to take can be made.

[Pali]

And if the spiritual is ever PROVEN to exist in any way, then I will accept it. However, every single spiritual feeling you have ever experienced has other possible explanations. You are taking one possible explanation that cannot be tested and treating it as correct. I am treating it as possible yet highly unlikely, as other explanations require less assumptions and are entirely physical (and testable) in nature. You see the difference?

(Yes, I have failed miserably at staying out of this. Can't help it.)

[Raargant]

As a person who is neither Christian nor Atheist, I would just like to reemphasize to everyone in this (completely derailed thread) that there is a choice between being Christian, and being Atheist.

[Goomf]

That's why it's called faith Pali. To believe when there is no scientific proof. I personally can't discount that there is a force out there that intertwines everything that is mysterious about the world and the universe. I do not, however, think that any denomination even comes CLOSE to the exact representation of this force. I actually had long long arguments with all my catholic/christian friends regarding the texts of the Bible. Out of all those arguments, it boiled down to 'This is what I believe because this is how I was raised. Take it or leave it.' As much as that doesn't disprove/prove anything, it does reflect that religion is a personal belief that contributes to the base of how a person is raised and what moral boundaries that person has. I dislike most of the religions, especially christianity, because I see so much **** where they use those religiosn as an excuse to act like tards.

Anyways, I'm at work, so I should get back to working.

[Pali]

With all due respect, Raar, I do not see agnosticism as a position between theism and atheism. If you are not a theist, you are an atheist. If you do not definitely believe, you are by definition an atheist. Nearly every agnostic I've ever met seems to qualify as a weak atheist, someone who does not believe a god exists, nor believes that one DOESN'T exist.

[Behrens]

As a person who is neither Christian nor Atheist, I would just like to remind everyone in this (completely derailed thread) that there is a choice between being Christian, and being Atheist.

I have in no place here argued for Christianity as the true spiritual path (although I believe it to be). Most of the arguments here have been the existance of a spiritual world versus its non-existance.

[Pali]

Oh, faith I can't touch. If you believe purely out of faith, there's nothing anyone can do to convince you otherwise. What I object to is when people of faith start making factual claims about the world based on this faith.

[MysticR]

In response to God hardening Pharoh's heart.

God, through Moses, had given Pharoh numerous times to repent. He looked at the things Moses could do, and had his magicians do the same, through what I believe to be the devil. At some point, however, Moses did things the magicans could not. Pharoh was given proof that a power beyond Moses was speaking. He yet refused the command of the completely holy and perfect God. God, in turn, sent Pharoh a powerful delusion so that he may not find the truth. There are times where God judges a person during his time on Earth. Yes, that is harsh, but to reject a holy and perfect being deserves eternal damnation. That is the wages of sin. In regard to Adam and Eve, he created them perfect and holy. With a free will, that is, being able to choose to sin or not. He gave them a command not to eat from ONE tree. They were tempted by the devil and rejected God's command. God had no choice but to curse them. But. This is a HUGE but. God at the same time, gave them a promise. He promised them a savior. One who would live the perfect life FOR them. That person was Jesus Christ. He lived a perfect life and died on the cross. He died carrying each and every sin of every person to ever live. He has said something so very simple. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." This is absolute truth. Should anyone believe through the Holy Spirit working faith in them that Jesus, sent by the Father, has died for their sins, then they will be in Heaven forever. I'm sure someone will ask how that works, but I do not know. It is a matter of faith. Listen to the word and believe that it is true. The Spirit will work faith in your heart. God only damns people for one and only one sin. That sin is unbelief. Murderers and thieves will be forgiven if they believe. Unfair? No. God is perfect and holy. He has decided to damn people to Hell for rejecting him, nothing else. Should anyone come to him through faith, then they will be in paradise.

This is my belief. If you see it as harsh, forgive me, but it is what I believe to be the truth.

[WagesofSin]

I cannot understand how you would find it offensive to be blind to something you do not believe exists. Am I missing something in this argument?

My belief is founded in reason, for all reason points to the Truth. However, this does not mean that reason is everything. I disagree that people act as if there were no G-d. Jihadis the world around certainly act as if Allah were true. Otherwise, suicide would not be a rational choice. Christians in North Korea and other repressive regimes act as if there were One True G-d, or they would renounce their faith, and walk free. Instead, they denounce Juche (the state religion of NK), and die for their faith.

Hard evidence of G-d is everywhere, in everything. I can see it everytime I move my fingers, and every time I hear music, see color, and take a breath. That you cannot is not evidence against it. I see G-d when I derive the Euler equation, when I study the behaviour of engineered systems under stress. When I do Maxwell's equations, I see the hand of a powerful Creator behind them. When I study the relativistic events near the frontiers of space, I see G-d's design.

The fine-tuning argument has been "shattered" by secular experts you rely on. Brilliant spiritual men have also come to faith through it, including Albert Einstein. As with everything, you can either see it, or not.

I cannot tell any person how to experience spirituality. I am not an evangelist. There are many who have that gift, but I am not one.

Your belief is founded in reason? Great! I hope I'm only one step away from understanding what you all do.

Now then, how did you use reason to come to this conclusion, because if it was reason then you should be able to show me your reasoning process and how you came to your conclusion. We'll see if your premises are valid or not.

"I disagree that people act as if there were no G-d. Jihadis the world around certainly act as if Allah were true. Otherwise, suicide would not be a rational choice."

Oh definitely! Please note I did not say ALL people behave as if there were no god. Jihadis also use logic to come to their conclusions. If killing yourself in the name of Allah gets you to heaven instantly, then it is indeed reasonalbe to fly a plane into a building. The problem is with their premises that they accept. It is not a fact that killing yourself for allah will get you there and it is the premises that we accept that must be examined.

"Hard evidence of G-d is everywhere, in everything... etc, etc, etc"

That is not hard evidence of any god. Why call it God? why not call it the universe. Just replace the word "G-d" with the word universe in your post and we'll come to an agreement! You have offered no proof, heck how can we even prove it if you and I haven't set a definition of what god is supposed to be?

[Pali]

Fair enough, Mystic. I continue to see it as harsh and immoral behavior on God's part, given that an omniscient being would know that they would eat of the tree anyways. Besides, if they weren't allowed to eat of it, why'd he put it there in the first place? Wasn't the Garden of Eden made for them?

[Raargant]

Moved to a more appropriate forums.

[Pali]

Moved to a more appropriate forums.

*laughs* I've been refreshing this page every 20 seconds or so... noticed the move before you even said that.

[Chayesh]

Not in anyway wanting to sound dismissive or belittling, I always found it amusing (perhaps not the right word...maybe curious is better) how vehemently and adamantly typical atheists go often to great lengths to "prove" that which they themselves claim cannot be proven, that is, the existence or non-existence of God (again, as God cannot be "quantified" as most want Him to be, then His existence cannot be disproven by professed Atheists just as they claim persons of faith cannot prove it).

Certainly, it is understandable why a person of faith goes to great lengths to share that faith with others. Whether it be feelings of personal validation of their own beliefs to have others share them, or the more altruistic doctrines of love, forgiveness, strength, healing, eternal life, etc. and desiring others to receive such blessings, it is pure logic that persons of such faith would be wanting others to partake in their faith.

But what drives an Atheist to dissuade people from their beliefs? It has just always seemed to be a lot of effort expended needlessly for Atheists to "prove" Atheism as a superior choice. I mean, I don't believe in Paul Bunyan but I'm not expending a single bit of energy trying to discount the tales of his exploits, calculating scientifically how a bull as large as Babe could not exist, let alone that he couldn't be blue or that a pile of his droppings would have buried the state of Rhode Island, or that an axe as big as old Paul's swung by a man of his stature would hit the moon on his backswing.

Yes. That's right. I said Paul Bunyan has a big axe.

Perhaps I don't get it, but what's the point of "disproving" what you believe doesn't exist in the first place. Seems a bit counter-productive and redundant.

EDIT: Sorry...took some time to type. Didn't want to appear to ignore the statements just prior or change the subject of the question on the table.

[Lexi]

Actually, agnosticism and atheism is becoming increasingly popular in my part of the world. Where I go to school, christians or jews or muslims are usually the ones that have to defend their faith, rather than the non-believers. Also, many people here in Sweden believe in 'something', be it a supernatural force or creator of some sort, but not any religion's God - and I count myself as one of them. After all, there is no evidence that God exists, but neither is there any evidence that a god does not exist.

The most difficult thing for me to grasp is actually time and space. Where did it come from? Big bang? Who created big bang? What was before time? When will time end? Those questions are not answered adequately by the Koran or the Bible, or science, at least not to my knowledge. However, I agree with Pali that the cristian and jewish god has had some really bad days. And his representatives on earth have had some even worse days. Unfortunately, modern religions has been used in so many bad ways, to justify so many injustices, to commit so many crimes, that I personally will not support them. Because.. it is just wrong.

Also, sometimes I really do wish I had faith. Believing that we exist for no purpose, lost to the whims of Chance, can be rough. Having a faith to fall back on must be a relief for many people, both for the spiritual, moral and social safeguards it provides. That is the truest purpose of religion, at least the way I feel it should be. A tool to help people understand the world, understand their existance, an aid to help them brave the misfortunes of this world - not something to incite wars and conflict.

But still... it's creepy when people start talking about "God's will" and that kind of stuff. I mean... jeesh... creepy.

[Fiere]

I continue to see it as harsh and immoral behavior on God's part, given that an omniscient being would know that they would eat of the tree anyways

2 nephi 2:22-"And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which which they were ever after created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery, doing no good, for they knew no sin." Now, it goes into more depth than that, but perhaps that's a good enough passage to explain my personal beliefs about the whole garden of eden thing. I don't believe Adam and Eve were bad, evil people. In fact, quite the opposite. Them falling was a part of God's plan.

[WarriorCleric]

I cannot understand how you would find it offensive to be blind to something you do not believe exists. Am I missing something in this argument?

Because it's the way you said and the way you say it. Blindness implies that it does exist, and that the blind just doesn't see it. I'm not blind to the existance of elves, elves just don't really exist. Also, you already said that the way you said it came across as harsh, so how can you find it hard to understand that something you admitidly said was harsh has offended someone?

Otherwise' date=' suicide would not be a rational choice. Christians in North Korea and other repressive regimes act as if there were One True G-d, or they would renounce their faith, and walk free. Instead, they denounce Juche (the state religion of NK), and die for their faith.[/quote'] Or they could also be dieing for their right to have a choice in there life. When an american dies fighting tyranny, he's fighting for his right to be free, when a korean dies, he's fighting for his right to be a christian? I'm not saying that some haven't, I'm just saying it's unlikely that it's the reason all of them do. And I just disagree that suicide is irrational without the belief in god, it's the same. Catholics who kill themselves goto hell, but their are still catholic suicides. Aethists kill themselves too. I just don't see a corelation between suicide and religion.

Hard evidence of G-d is everywhere' date=' in everything. I can see it everytime I move my fingers, and every time I hear music, see color, and take a breath. That you cannot is not evidence against it. I see G-d when I derive the Euler equation, when I study the behaviour of engineered systems under stress. When I do Maxwell's equations, I see the hand of a powerful Creator behind them. When I study the relativistic events near the frontiers of space, I see G-d's design.[/quote'] It's called the burden of proof, or negative proof. You have to prove god exists, those who don't believe don't have to prove he doesn't. That's why religion centers on faith, you have faith that your beliefs are true despite the lack of proof to support it. And both sides come up lacking in my opinion anyway, where did the universe come from? or Where did god come from? Take it back as far as you want, the begining isn't known.

The fine-tuning argument has been "shattered" by secular experts you rely on. Brilliant spiritual men have also come to faith through it, including Albert Einstein. As with everything, you can either see it, or not.

I cannot tell any person how to experience spirituality. I am not an evangelist. There are many who have that gift, but I am not one.

The problem is it seems to me that you are saying you are better than the people who don't believe, that you're gifted in some way because of your faith.

Faith in religion, or faith in science, it's all the same, it's just believing your right despite not having all the answers. Anyone who stands up for what they believe in is alright with me, but I think everyone really needs to leave this **** off the forum because it's been proven time and time again that this community can't handle this ****.

Don't want to be a dick to anyone on this matter. I like Behrens, but I just disagree strongly with how he presents his side here. And I know he doesn't really think he is better than anyone else in the way I mentioned, that's just how I feel he's comming off. If he really thought he was better than anyone else, then a lot of us wouldn't be here anymore.

I myself am a pedestrian, and all this talk of religion is making me feel pious, I'm going for a walk.

WC